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Old 16-10-14, 19:09   #1
Kie Diddy
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tough spot after flopping trips 3-way?

50 live tourney

130 runners, ~80 left

blinds: 200/400 (no ante)

starting stack = 10k ; average ~17k

villain (UTG) (40k): raises to 900

button (20k): calls

Hero (bb): A4 off - calls

flop: Q44

flop action went like this:

Hero (BB): check
Villain(UTG): bets 1600
Button:raise to 4500
Hero: raises to 10k
Villain: Shove for 40k
Button: calls all-in
Hero:??? all in to call (20k back)

info: have played with 'villain' few times and seems competent, opens a fair bit but not a maniac by any means - won two big pots early on with QQ both times

Button seems OK too but straight forward - he Played a hand earlier in which he raised a c-bet hu with top pair and called a shove - his top pair held versus nut flush draw

My image to villain(s) is almost certainly tight

To be honest I wasn't too concerned about the button, the hand info above and others I've played with him meant I know he can over value a q here and he def would go with a flush draw. Issue was the villain - as to my mind he never (ever) has a bluff - so how wide are his non-bluff hands here?

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Old 16-10-14, 20:20   #2
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Absent very specific information I think you have to call here. You have nut kicker as well. Lots of fours, queens, over pairs and flush draws.
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Old 16-10-14, 20:46   #3
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I'd rather fold pre flop but after flopping this big I don't think folding can be an option with ~30% already in the middle. Call and hope to see AA or KK.
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Old 17-10-14, 00:15   #4
Hectorjelly
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I'm sorry I opened this thread.

You have the third nuts, of the two hands that beat you, one is very unlikely preflop (Q4) and the other is both combinatoraly unlikely and your opponent would need to be brain dead to play it like this (QQ)
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Old 17-10-14, 02:03   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
You have the third nuts, of the two hands that beat you, one is very unlikely preflop (Q4) and the other is both combinatoraly unlikely and your opponent would need to be brain dead to play it like this (QQ)
This.
I don't what else there is to consider.


Also, why call preflop with A4 OOP, if you don't get it in on a x44 flop
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Old 17-10-14, 08:40   #6
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
combinatoraly unlikely
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Old 17-10-14, 15:08   #7
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close enough

combinatoraly
combinatorially
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Old 21-10-14, 04:51   #8
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So, did you start this thread because he turned over QQ? Give us the result ya auld tease
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Old 21-10-14, 05:26   #9
Hectorjelly
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He has to have QQ, nothing else makes sense (given the thread).

The hand has two interesting decision points, preflop and on the flop. Pre is marginal but I would definitely call. I hate the OPS flop play as he may as well turn his 4 face up, although that said he does have the nut kicker so he is at the top of his range (with his range being 4x).

The action on the flop goes, check - bet, raise and reraise from hero, its going to be hard to get action from a queen with a line like that. Its fine against bad players but any thinking player is going to realise you are very likely to have a four, you are the BB and only called a small raise getting great odds multiway.

Leading the flop is definitely an option.

If you had a weak 4 in your hand your line would be terrible, but the decision at the end would be interesting, it really looks like you have a 4; but you are getting great pot odds, can easily end if chopping it against 4x and a flush draw is going to be a large part of your opponents range. I think its a call.
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Old 21-10-14, 18:17   #10
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So, I was actually the UTG villain rather than hero - I posted from hero's perspective as made it simpler in terms of explaining the decesion points. I mainly posted as I would not be passing A4 in hero's spot - to my mind a weak 4 would be super tough but with A4 I'm calling all day long. This was the jist of discussion I had with the 'hero' after the hand. His point was I have so few 4x hands in my UTG opening range that QQ seemed more likely.

For the record the hands were:

UTG 45
button: KQ
BB: A4

(45 held fwiw)

I think his perception with regard me having such a tight range overlooked the fact I had won 2-3 nice sized pots in the recent past to now have a very decent stack, after being uner starting stack since basically the first hand prior to this, and hence would now be opening a lot wider than previously including suited connectors which I think is something to take from the hand.
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Old 22-10-14, 00:49   #11
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Did the A4 fold?
Also, KQ, wtf? lol
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Old 22-10-14, 05:15   #12
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This is one of the worst played hands I've ever come across. I don't mind the play with 45, but the KQ is bad, and the A5 is staggeringly awful. This is worse than folding AA preflop

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...4s5s&s=generic

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...5%29&s=generic

And in a situation where you are literally never shown a worse hand. You should congratulate this guy as I doubt anyone has ever played a hand so badly where he was cognisant of all the details and not trying to lose.
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Old 22-10-14, 07:00   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kie Diddy View Post
His point was I have so few 4x hands in my UTG opening range that QQ seemed more likely.
Would anyone ever shove QQ here? Most people wouldn't even initially bet. You don't even need to think about preflop ranges.

On a side note, I was wondering if someone is opening 45s utg then are they opening Q5s, since Q5s is a marginally better hand. Turns out that the tighter the range you are called with the better 45s does. Against top 30% of hands Q5s is slightly better than 45s, against top 20% 45s does better, although you are talking about fractions of a % in the difference.
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Old 22-10-14, 14:00   #14
Kie Diddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
Did the A4 fold?
Also, KQ, wtf? lol
yep, A4 folded on teh flop to my jam.
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Old 22-10-14, 14:09   #15
Kie Diddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
This is one of the worst played hands I've ever come across. I don't mind the play with 45, but the KQ is bad, and the A5 is staggeringly awful
Phew, least I came out of the cross examination OK

I genuinely posted becasue I couldn't believe he folded, once he was tanking and talking to himslef etc I was thinking he must have a weak 4 but to see the A4 was amazing to me. Hence, I wanted to see if my thoughts on the hand were someway correct or if I was looking at the situation too simply.

FWIW, think if I did have QQ I might still shove - on the assumption that at that point a 4 isn't folding (or a flush draw at this standard quite often) but propabaly not, and would be less likely to c-bet flop with QQ too.
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Old 26-10-14, 17:06   #16
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the button with kq should have folded when his rr got called by an all in, a4 was mad to fold, why play a4 if youd fold a flop like that, what more you want,, id call with a4 and gamble, i dont like calling raises with ace low kicker as you cud be out kicked but a flop like that is too hard to throw away but you have to know how that opp has been playing, if he seems tight then he cud have either aq, kk or qq minmum, with a potsize like that id def be calling
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