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Old 12-01-14, 16:17   #41
TM2204
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Originally Posted by pppspecial View Post
If someone puts the chips in the pot there in, regardless if its out off turn or not. Once the chips are released from your hand there in. Mistake or not.
Not true anymore. In some places (not all, and that itself is tilting!) if a player acts out of turn and puts chips into the pot he gets his action back and can take them out again!!

Now THAT'S NUTS...
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Old 12-01-14, 17:07   #42
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Originally Posted by TM2204 View Post
Not true anymore. In some places (not all, and that itself is tilting!) if a player acts out of turn and puts chips into the pot he gets his action back and can take them out again!!

Now THAT'S NUTS...
If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
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Old 12-01-14, 17:15   #43
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Originally Posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
I know, think it's a shocking rule though. Apologies for going OT.
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Old 12-01-14, 17:47   #44
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Arazi, I can't understand why you are so angry, or why you think a players "intent" is so important. Both of the situations are reasonably common and there are specific rules laid out in the TDA rules for them. You seem to think JP would become a world class TD by ignoring the TDA rules and attempting to infer players intentions whilst ignoring the actions they took.

The main reason we have official rules is so that players will get a common experience no matter where they play poker. Both of these situations are relatively clear cut and have specific rules regarding them, the problem lies not with the TD, but with players not reading/understanding the rules.
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Old 12-01-14, 19:47   #45
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Hi Guys,

A few points following on from comments to my reply last night.

Regarding Rule 46: I will start a new thread later for that rule as I think it merits its own thread.

Dealing with the original post:
The dealer originally said it was a call, someone (Iím guessing Dave) called for a ruling. One of my supervisors ruled it as a raise and the hand played on. This supervisor came to me to discuss the ruling as he thought he may have gotten it wrong. After explaining the situation to me, I informed him that he made an incorrect ruling.

Then I went to the table (not knowing who was involved in the rule) and explained that an incorrect ruling was made in the last hand and explained what the correct ruling should have been.

Regarding the rule itself:
The oversized chip rule has been in the TDA rule set for a number of years, but how it should be applied to this specific situation was clarified for me in 2011. Prior to that, I would have ruled it a raise.

I remember at that time when the new rule set was published, I was working EPT Barcelona and we (floor staff and newly appointed EPT President) were discussing the rules and we were spilt almost 50-50 on if this situation was a call or a raise. I canít remember exactly who was on which side of the fence, I do remember that I thought it was a raise and Luca Vivaldi thought it was a call. Anyway, long story short, we got in touch with the TDA to clarify the situation and they confirmed it was a CALL.

The example they gave was something similar to one that Flushdraw gave in a different thread about his local club in Donegal where the players try to make it easier for the dealers to give change.

Example given:
Blinds are 300-600, folded to SB who removes 2 x 100 chips and places a single 1,000 chip into the pot. Using the 50% raise rule he would have to make it 1,200 but using the oversized chip rule itís just a call.

Whether we like the rule or not, the rule itself can be debated, but it doesnít change the fact that it is the correct ruling in this situation according to TDA rules.
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Old 12-01-14, 20:14   #46
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Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).

I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.
Hi Ciaran,

The rule with Dave is covered by one rule, the oversized chip rule.

I see where you are coming from with the above statement regarding the quasi rule. The rules I listed above if followed could have also prevented the OP situation from happening.

The reason rule 1: Floor Decisions (Interest of fairness) exists is because no rule set can cover all possible situations at a poker tournament and sometimes multiple rules can be broken at the same time which contradict each other.

In both rulings at my Xmas Cracker, there is a rule in place to deal directly with these situations. I think if I had have ignored the correct rulings in both situations and went with what I thought the players' intent was, I think more players would have thought I got wrong.

In your ruling, if the player announced all-in and then placed 5,100 in the pot would you have expected me to rule he was all-in or that a bet of 5,100 stands?

In Dave's ruling, now he knows it for the next time he plays live.
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Old 13-01-14, 00:32   #47
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If Dave put in 1k without touching the 150 SB, its a Call.
Had he taken the entire 150 SB back, its also a Call.

The ambiguous nature of the action here comes from the fact that he had left 100 taking only the 2x25 chips back. From reading the OP, the 1000 chip was put in first and then the 2x25 removed immediately. And although the blind was changed, the 100 was untouched which imo means it remains inactive in the bet and no different to 1k on top of a full SB.
As other have suggested, something as simply as lifting the 100 into his hand and putting it down along with the 1k would be enough to cement the two chips as together as a raise.

A few people have mentioned the issue of intent. If I was at the table I'd have no doubt as to what his intent was, and usually I'd rather see common sense prevail and a players intent stand. However, because this is a common situation (action reaching the SB unraised), ruling this a raise creates a repeated opening to angleshoot. I'm not for a second suggesting Dave was angleshooting, just that somebody else might chance his arm and retract his SB extra slow in future.
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Old 15-01-14, 15:05   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).
I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.
Honestly !!! JP comes out and admits his Floor man has ruled incorrectly, explains why to the table inorder to put the record straight, comes on here to explain and debate it and still people are unhappy. I probabally would have ruled it a raise also but having it explained above its been deemed a Call by TDA and by application by some of the top TDs in the world including JP (not just potentally) surely this makes it clear " its a call " and yes we know he intended to Raise but we have all done that, thrown in a big chip forgetting to say Raise .
Just my 2p
cheers Liam
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Old 16-01-14, 14:25   #49
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Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

Five players limp for 300 preflop.
SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?
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Old 16-01-14, 16:13   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connie147 View Post
Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

Five players limp for 300 preflop.
SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?
Unfortunately it would seem at every stage.
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Old 16-01-14, 16:25   #51
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the rule is in place so the dealer doesn't need to ask. It is a call no question.

There is no ambiguity in the rule. If there is ambiguity then issues occur.

The rules in place are to eliminate the ambiguity. If it is one chip it is a call. If it is more than 1 chip its a raise. The dealer doesn't ask what you are doing because it is already defined by the rule.


The rules are freely available worldwide on-line and have been for a decade at least. Any new players or old players can get hold of them and any one organising a game can have access to them, you don't need a membership to use them.

In fact it is even easier now than even 2 or 3 years ago as apps and pdfs of the rules are free, rather than having to print a copy off.

It is then up to the organisor how strict they will be enforced. All new players make mistakes so it is normal to be forgiving when a player makes a 1st few errors. But after a while you are expected to know and accept that there are consequences if you don't.
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Old 17-01-14, 20:48   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connie147 View Post
Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

Five players limp for 300 preflop.
SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?
Hi Connie,

I find it's best to start when new players start. No point in them getting into bad habits.

When a new player comes into my club, I normally ask them a few questions like...

How did you here about us?
Where do you normally play? Ect

You'll know fast enough if the player is a newbie or not.

At this point I'll explain the basic's. I'll tell his table that he is a new player and that were going to explain the rules to him as he goes along.

Normally you'll find that the players are all very helpful with this. As he/she makes mistakes we ask them what they were trying to do and allow it but explain the rule to them.

The biggest mistakes you normally find are string bets, acting out of turn ect. The first night is normally a free pass unless they break the same rule over and over.

Let me stress the place for this is in a cheap friendly game not a mid to high buy-in.

Players are expected to have enough knowledge by the time they start playing at these levels.

I'd also like to point out if I feel that the player has zero knowledge I normally tell them play a few home games with their friends (or to come back and play on our cheapest night). I explain to them that they'll just lose their money and won't enjoy themselves as they will mostly likely be making mistake after mistake. I also strongly advise against players playing cash at this point and will also not allow some players to play cash.

Some people might think this is foolish of me to turn away business, but I think long term this makes the most sense. No point in a new player starting with a real bad experience and losing a ton of money and never playing again.

Last edited by JP Poker; 17-01-14 at 21:25.
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Old 17-01-14, 22:08   #53
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Hi Guys,

A few points following on from comments to my reply last night.

Regarding Rule 46: I will start a new thread later for that rule as I think it merits its own thread.

Dealing with the original post:
The dealer originally said it was a call, someone (I’m guessing Dave) called for a ruling. One of my supervisors ruled it as a raise and the hand played on. This supervisor came to me to discuss the ruling as he thought he may have gotten it wrong. After explaining the situation to me, I informed him that he made an incorrect ruling.

Then I went to the table (not knowing who was involved in the rule) and explained that an incorrect ruling was made in the last hand and explained what the correct ruling should have been.

Regarding the rule itself:
The oversized chip rule has been in the TDA rule set for a number of years, but how it should be applied to this specific situation was clarified for me in 2011. Prior to that, I would have ruled it a raise.

I remember at that time when the new rule set was published, I was working EPT Barcelona and we (floor staff and newly appointed EPT President) were discussing the rules and we were spilt almost 50-50 on if this situation was a call or a raise. I can’t remember exactly who was on which side of the fence, I do remember that I thought it was a raise and Luca Vivaldi thought it was a call. Anyway, long story short, we got in touch with the TDA to clarify the situation and they confirmed it was a CALL.

The example they gave was something similar to one that Flushdraw gave in a different thread about his local club in Donegal where the players try to make it easier for the dealers to give change.

Example given:
Blinds are 300-600, folded to SB who removes 2 x 100 chips and places a single 1,000 chip into the pot. Using the 50% raise rule he would have to make it 1,200 but using the oversized chip rule it’s just a call.

Whether we like the rule or not, the rule itself can be debated, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is the correct ruling in this situation according to TDA rules.
surely you must take into consideration with this rule that at this time the blinds were v150 /300 so by taking back the 2 x25 chips and putting out 1000 chip leaving the 100 chip out there it saying im raising not calling .

i always thought 1 chip was a call unless told otherwise and 2 chips was a raise

1/ the example you give is ok with the blinds given but not with what the blinds were when this happened

Last edited by corkie123; 18-01-14 at 01:30.
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Old 17-01-14, 23:54   #54
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surely you must take into consideration with this rule that at this time the blinds were v150 /300 so by taking back the 2 x25 chips and putting out 1000 chip leaving the 100 chip out there it saying im raising not calling .
i always thought 1 chip was a call unless told otherwise and 2 chips was a raise
the example you give is ok with the blinds given but not with what the blinds were when this happened
Correct my if I'm reading this wrong.

Your understanding (intention for a better word), if the above situation happen and the Blinds are...

150-300
You would rule it a raise to 1100

but if the blinds are

300-600
You would rule it a call
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Old 18-01-14, 01:28   #55
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Correct my if I'm reading this wrong.

Your understanding (intention for a better word), if the above situation happen and the Blinds are...

150-300
You would rule it a raise to 1100

but if the blinds are

300-600
You would rule it a call
yes i would take it as a raise at 150 /300 blinds
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Old 18-01-14, 01:49   #56
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yes i would take it as a raise at 150 /300 blinds
So what your saying is you would rule differently at two different stages of the tournament even thou the player did the exact same thing.
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Old 18-01-14, 14:35   #57
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no sorry i would not
if same happened then min raise would be at 300/600 blinds but just saying when dave done what he did the blinds were 150/300 and the 1100 bet would have been a clear raise to me .

but i always tell people if they want to raise say raise or pointing up wards to dealer which would leave dealer know what your intentions are no dispute then
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Old 28-01-14, 13:09   #58
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from EPT Deauville

Manig Loeser ‏@swordfish007 29s
Witnessed 4 situations so far where it was unclear whether one chip was a raise or a call and Floorman got called (only once by me)

Manig Loeser ‏@swordfish007 39s
Even though I understand & accept the 'new rule' it just leaves way too much room for angle-shooting considering we're in France.
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Old 11-10-14, 20:26   #59
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In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was.
Just reading this now, and the only that is clear is that nothing is clear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
This is a good rule as it enforces maximum punishment on the early mover. If you want to bluff all in in-adavnce then you still can as he gets all his options back. if you want him to get chips in you can just call, see his raise and then re-raise, or you can fold.
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Unfortunately it would seem at every stage.
But it is fair because the rules are the same for everyone.
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