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Old 08-01-14, 16:50   #21
smoothcall
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If you pick up the 100 chip and drop it with the 1k its a raise, its a call the way you did it.
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Old 08-01-14, 17:07   #22
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Not one for speaking much / announcing raises my self either. In this spot I pull back the 150, put the 2 * 25 chips back into my stack and push out the 1100 (one * 1k chip & 1 * 100 chip).
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Old 08-01-14, 17:26   #23
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Originally Posted by smoothcall View Post
If you pick up the 100 chip and drop it with the 1k its a raise, its a call the way you did it.
Correct.
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Old 08-01-14, 19:32   #24
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Originally Posted by TM2204 View Post
Not one for speaking much / announcing raises my self either. In this spot I pull back the 150, put the 2 * 25 chips back into my stack and push out the 1100 (one * 1k chip & 1 * 100 chip).
Ill be doing it like this from now on but IMO things like this just upset the game more as its an add on to an already added on rule that is useless. If someone puts a 5k or 10k chip into the pot by mistake or on purpose its in and thats the end off it.... it should be a raise. Why would this not be the case regardless if they are new to the game or not.

BTW did I mention nobody had raised pre. This to me is a bigger factor.
Sceaniro............ Button folds and i I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm.

Is this also just a call.
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Old 08-01-14, 22:28   #25
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Originally Posted by pppspecial View Post
Ill be doing it like this from now on but IMO things like this just upset the game more as its an add on to an already added on rule that is useless. If someone puts a 5k or 10k chip into the pot by mistake or on purpose its in and thats the end off it.... it should be a raise. Why would this not be the case regardless if they are new to the game or not.

BTW did I mention nobody had raised pre. This to me is a bigger factor.
Sceaniro............ Button folds and i I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm.

Is this also just a call.
Thats a string bet
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Old 09-01-14, 23:35   #26
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I think by the way you made the bet, ie took out 2 x 25 chips, left the hundred in front and then added your 1k chip to the 100, then it is obvious to me that you are attempting to raise to 1100.
Surely common sense should prevail over rules when something is so obvious? And if there is a rule to outlaw this, I cant for the life of me,understand why people think this action is wrong and needs a rule to prevent it happening.

If your intention was to raise, and you have already said it was, and your actions in the pot would lead me to believe you were raising, all the dealer has to do is confirm with you that the 1100 is a raise. its not like you did a string bet or anything.
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Old 10-01-14, 10:40   #27
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Originally Posted by connie147 View Post
I think by the way you made the bet, ie took out 2 x 25 chips, left the hundred in front and then added your 1k chip to the 100, then it is obvious to me that you are attempting to raise to 1100.
what if he made a mistake and simply forgot the hundred was there? Or it was too close to someone else's chips that he assumed it belonged to them.
What if he is intending to call and you just forced a raise because he forgot about a chip?
You can't rule on someones intention, only by what they do. He placed one chip in the pot without saying anything.

Once the chips are in the pot they no longer belong to you. So if you throw in more they don't automatically get added to what you have already paid.

In a same situation if, for some reason, the player has 150 in small chips and a 25k (lets just say hes running real bad in a high roller event) would you be forcing him to bet 25100 when he is obviously calling?

Again, it's obvious to you that it is a call, but it is obvious to me that it is a raise, just the fact that 2 people can read his intention differently creates ambiguity, so the rules state, placing one chip in is a call this is not ambiguous.

As smoothcall suggests, if he picks up the 100 and then throws it in with the 1k then he is now throwing in 2 chips so its a raise.
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Old 10-01-14, 10:49   #28
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what if he made a mistake and simply forgot the hundred was there? Or it was too close to someone else's chips that he assumed it belonged to them.
What if he is intending to call and you just forced a raise because he forgot about a chip?
You can't rule on someones intention, only by what they do. He placed one chip in the pot without saying anything.

Once the chips are in the pot they no longer belong to you. So if you throw in more they don't automatically get added to what you have already paid.

In a same situation if, for some reason, the player has 150 in small chips and a 25k (lets just say hes running real bad in a high roller event) would you be forcing him to bet 25100 when he is obviously calling?

Again, it's obvious to you that it is a call, but it is obvious to me that it is a raise, just the fact that 2 people can read his intention differently creates ambiguity, so the rules state, placing one chip in is a call this is not ambiguous.

As smoothcall suggests, if he picks up the 100 and then throws it in with the 1k then he is now throwing in 2 chips so its a raise.
Instead of quoting the 1st part of Connie's quote, why not quote the 2nd where he answered almost everything you asked?

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Originally Posted by connie147 View Post

If your intention was to raise, and you have already said it was, and your actions in the pot would lead me to believe you were raising, all the dealer has to do is confirm with you that the 1100 is a raise. its not like you did a string bet or anything.
If we're being a stickler for the rules, then surely the 2 bolded parts contradict each other? If chips don't belong to us, how can we take them back into our stack and then add to them?
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Old 10-01-14, 11:04   #29
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Instead of quoting the 1st part of Connie's quote, why not quote the 2nd where he answered almost everything you asked

If we're being a stickler for the rules, then surely the 2 bolded parts contradict each other? If chips don't belong to us, how can we take them back into our stack and then add to them?
Cos I was only highlighting the fact that connie used the phrase "its obvious to me"

It has nothing to do with being a stickler for the rules. what is obvious to some isn't obvious to others. People will interpret vague actions differently. So we have to go by what is not vague. and that is the fact that he placed one chip in the pot.

No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it. Since he made no action to clarify which it was we cannot rule otherwise.

The chips don't belong to you, they belong to the pot. They are left in front of you for many reason: to help players follow the action and to speed up the game and so the dealer can conveniently make change.

just because staff do not prevent you making change from your own bets does not mean that is the purpose of them being there.
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Old 10-01-14, 11:20   #30
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Cos I was only highlighting the fact that connie used the phrase "its obvious to me"

It has nothing to do with being a stickler for the rules. what is obvious to some isn't obvious to others. People will interpret vague actions differently. So we have to go by what is not vague. and that is the fact that he placed one chip in the pot.

No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it. Since he made no action to clarify which it was we cannot rule otherwise.

The chips don't belong to you, they belong to the pot. They are left in front of you for many reason: to help players follow the action and to speed up the game and so the dealer can conveniently make change.

just because staff do not prevent you making change from your own bets does not mean that is the purpose of them being there.
"100 people were surveyed, and they were asked 'Why did pppspecial simultaneously remove 2 x 25 chips while leaving a 1k chip beside his 100 chip in the pot?'. Top 3 answers are on the board"

He was attempting a raise - 92
He was calling - 5
Some other nonsense - 3

I'd imagine it's something along those lines. Rules are rules, but you don't have to fight to defend them religiously. There is definitely room for dealers to use their discretion in poker. If it wasn't obvious to the dealer, why can't he just confirm it's a raise. It's not an angle shoot, or he's not trying to get a read from other players. Depending on which dealer was at the table at the time, i'm sure there would have been many who would ruled it a raise without questioning it.
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Old 10-01-14, 11:31   #31
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"100 people were surveyed, and they were asked 'Why did pppspecial simultaneously remove 2 x 25 chips while leaving a 1k chip beside his 100 chip in the pot?'. Top 3 answers are on the board"

He was attempting a raise - 92
He was calling - 5
Some other nonsense - 3

I'd imagine it's something along those lines. Rules are rules, but you don't have to fight to defend them religiously. There is definitely room for dealers to use their discretion in poker. If it wasn't obvious to the dealer, why can't he just confirm it's a raise. It's not an angle shoot, or he's not trying to get a read from other players. Depending on which dealer was at the table at the time, i'm sure there would have been many who would ruled it a raise without questioning it.
lol, now youve lost it.

It really isnt as simple as "oh well most people reckon youd be raising, so why not. "

The fact is the situation is vague. There is not room for dealers to use their discretion, because like poker players they don't always pay attention. They don't always remember that the blinds are 150 and not 50 and they aren't always sure whose chip that is.

If dealers are allowing raises without questioning it then they are poor dealers. And this country has a hell of a high percentage of poor dealers. just because a bad dealer doesn't know or enforce the rules doent mean we can just change the rules to suit the situation.

As JP highlighted in his other thread the TDA is moving to a position where players need to be more responsible and this is another situation where that is the case. The player was vague in his action and the rule needed to be implemented. He could've easily done a few things, speak or grab the chip and throw out two, but for what ever reason he did not.
If the dealer has to stop and interpret your actions then they are not clear enough, if if 92% of the time the dealer guesses correctly then it is still too vague. Actions need to be clear. Saying I raise, or deliberately placing 2 chips in the pot is clear.

Leaving one chip out which may or may not be part of the bet is quite simply not clear. If it were clear there would not be so many threads on the matter.
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Old 10-01-14, 13:34   #32
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lol, now youve lost it.
eh, no. You said this

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Originally Posted by thegreatiam View Post

No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it.
and i disagree. If i was at the table, i would have 100% known it was a raise, so therefore i know why he left the 100 chip in there. There would be no ifs, buts or maybes. Not really sure what the rest of your post is about because i didn't mention anything about dealers guessing. Using discretion, or confirming the raise would be very acceptable. Anyways, not going to keep commentating on this because you loooove all poker rules and hate to hear a bad word said about any of them
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Old 10-01-14, 14:42   #33
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And this country has a hell of a high percentage of poor dealers.
I would take issue with this statement. I don't know if you've played anywhere overseas but the standard of dealer in this country, in general, is extremely high in comparison with most other countries. You just need to look at how many Irish (or Irish trained) dealers and other staff are regulars on the EPT tour to realise that.
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Old 10-01-14, 14:52   #34
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I would take issue with this statement. I don't know if you've played anywhere overseas but the standard of dealer in this country, in general, is extremely high in comparison with most other countries. You just need to look at how many Irish (or Irish trained) dealers and other staff are regulars on the EPT tour to realise that.
I worked EPT and WPT tours for a long time, Since '04 as well as in the states, South Africa and thoughout Europe.

The reason there are so many dealers from such a small area is because we hire who we know. Its hard to get in if no-one knows you. And since most of the Irish dealers were taught by the British dealers from the Merrion and the Fitz they have been working together for years. 5 years ago there were hardly any Irish dealers on the circuit. Most were Austrian and American, that's because the people in charge were Austrian and American. Sure there were some not from those places but general rule of thumb is people prefer to hire people they know and trust.

Besides, having worked an EPT isnt really a qualification to know the rules, or even know how to enforce them. And there are plenty of extremely high standard dealers who have never worked an EPT.
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Old 12-01-14, 00:52   #35
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Hi Guys,

I think Gareth has already said most of what I was going to say.

Here's the rules which cover this situation...

2: Player Responsibilities
Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

Because Dave didn't announce his bet, his intention is not clear.

42: Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.


Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot. If Dave had of taken all the chips out and put in the 1,000 and 100 chips this would be a raise to the full amount 1,100 if he doesn't announce something different.

44: Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In
If a player faces a raise and has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet, those chips (and any change due) may affect whether his betting response to the raise is a call or re-raise. Because several possibilities exist, players are encouraged to verbally declare their bet before putting out new chips on top of chips from a prior bet not yet pulled in.

Because Dave must put more chips into the pot in order to make a call we don't know if Dave is putting the oversized chip in too...
1: Raise
2: Call
3: If he's looking for change.



Dave (and Tony) mentioned that he doesn't like to to talk when betting and he's right he doesn't have to announce his bet amount. The problem with this is because his intention is not clear, and I must rule it a call.

The fact that Dave or any player for that matter may have small chips behind also does not come into play, when making my ruling.

We often see players putting chips out to make the dealers job easy for making change.

I guess the golden rule here #2 above, puts the onus on the player to make their intentions clear. It would also do every poker player no harm in reading the rules of the event that your playing in so you know what is and what is not allowed at the event your playing in. After all you are putting down large sums of money to play these game.

The TDA rules is the most widely recognised rule which are in use in most major poker tours including WSOP, WPT and all Pokerstars tours. Some minor rules may vary between the different tour's e.g.

29: At Your Seat
A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.

The WSOP use the last card rule, EPT and WPT use 1st Card.

Nearly every rule set will have 95%+ of the TDA rules so if you read and know these rules when you play in a new venue all you to is ask the card room manager/TD if they use TDA rules and if they have any rules which differs from TDA.

TDA rules can by found here http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts...ial-tda-rules/

While were on the subject of rules. There's part of the following rule which I don't agree with and don't use.

46: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all tournament situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

For me if the dealer give incorrect information about a players bet amount I'm not going to hold a caller to the full wager if it's discovered after.

E.g. Player goes all in for 55,000 but the dealer miscounts his stack as 35,000 (counts 25k chip as a 5k chip).

For me using rule 2

2: Player Responsibilities

Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

The all-in player should speak up when the dealer makes the mistake and correct him before the caller acts.

Last edited by JP Poker; 12-01-14 at 00:57.
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Old 12-01-14, 11:24   #36
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Originally Posted by JP Poker View Post
Hi Guys,

I think Gareth has already said most of what I was going to say.

Here's the rules which cover this situation...

2: Player Responsibilities
Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

Because Dave didn't announce his bet, his intention is not clear.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@My intentions are very clear....its a raise . In one action I have left 2 chips in the pot. With plenty off change in front off me... Im not a newbie either... I see this only as an option for angle shooting off some sort from an outside view.
In 9 years off playing I have never been pulled up on this.

42: Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.


Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot. If Dave had of taken all the chips out and put in the 1,000 and 100 chips this would be a raise to the full amount 1,100 if he doesn't announce something different.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@You forgot to mention Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot retracting the 2x 25 chip amounts in the same action leaving a total off 1100 in the pot.. This excuse dont wash either.

If I had left 1150 in the pot i would understand the call for a ruling but anything else is just play on.

44: Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In
If a player faces a raise and has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet, those chips (and any change due) may affect whether his betting response to the raise is a call or re-raise. Because several possibilities exist, players are encouraged to verbally declare their bet before putting out new chips on top of chips from a prior bet not yet pulled in.

Because Dave must put more chips into the pot in order to make a call we don't know if Dave is putting the oversized chip in too...
1: Raise
2: Call
3: If he's looking for change.


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@Again i didnt need change and in order to make a raise off any sort ..... you do have to use an oversized chip. This is common sense surley.


Dave (and Tony) mentioned that he doesn't like to to talk when betting and he's right he doesn't have to announce his bet amount. The problem with this is because his intention is not clear, and I must rule it a call.



The fact that Dave or any player for that matter may have small chips behind also does not come into play, when making my ruling.

We often see players putting chips out to make the dealers job easy for making change.

I guess the golden rule here #2 above, puts the onus on the player to make their intentions clear. It would also do every poker player no harm in reading the rules of the event that your playing in so you know what is and what is not allowed at the event your playing in. After all you are putting down large sums of money to play these game.

The TDA rules is the most widely recognised rule which are in use in most major poker tours including WSOP, WPT and all Pokerstars tours. Some minor rules may vary between the different tour's e.g.

29: At Your Seat
A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.

The WSOP use the last card rule, EPT and WPT use 1st Card.

Nearly every rule set will have 95%+ of the TDA rules so if you read and know these rules when you play in a new venue all you to is ask the card room manager/TD if they use TDA rules and if they have any rules which differs from TDA.

TDA rules can by found here http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts...ial-tda-rules/

While were on the subject of rules. There's part of the following rule which I don't agree with and don't use.

46: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all tournament situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

For me if the dealer give incorrect information about a players bet amount I'm not going to hold a caller to the full wager if it's discovered after.

E.g. Player goes all in for 55,000 but the dealer miscounts his stack as 35,000 (counts 25k chip as a 5k chip).

For me using rule 2

2: Player Responsibilities

Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

The all-in player should speak up when the dealer makes the mistake and correct him before the caller acts.
How do I make the text above stand out as I have replyed to JP under his comments. Im useless with computers.

This ruling is actually one off the worst I have seen to date with all these rule changes over the last few years. The social aspect IMO has really gone from poker because off these rule changes. To be brutally honest this is the exact reason I dont bother with live poker anymore unless its 10k+ and know quite a few more people in the same boat. People would rather do without the confrontation it creates.We have quite few options when its the big games and have no choice but to abide by these silly rules hence my need to bring it up.
Nine years playing poker and today I have to change my ways.

Last edited by pppspecial; 12-01-14 at 11:45.
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Old 12-01-14, 12:31   #37
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I completely agree with you Dave. I think the ruling in my hand was poor but this one is worse.
Fwiw I think JP runs a great tournament, himself and Christine are top class hosts and deserve every success that comes that way.

However JP is becoming a stickler for the rules and imposing them out of their context. IMO if he is to become a world class TD he needs to have a rule saying the the TD will aspire to impose the rules as he sees the intent to be and as such can supersede all above rules and his say is final.
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Old 12-01-14, 12:54   #38
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If someone puts the chips in the pot there in, regardless if its out off turn or not. Once the chips are released from your hand there in. Mistake or not.

If its 50% or more chips than the last raise,its a reraise. wheres this rule gone.

Heres an example of JPS ruling in another sceaniro.
Imagine you call not realising that UTG has raised. Ie. UTG raises 3xbig and sb completes the bb not realising UTG raised... now by your ruling sb intentions are not clear as he hasnt announced anything. Do you make him call the 3 big blinds the UTG has made it. Or can he take his chips back because its his first game and qualified for a 1k event through a series off freerolls. This is just nuts tbh.

The way it sounds to me is feck common sense..././.If all else fails refer to rule 2 putting the blame back on the player.
Its up to the dealer to be clear with pot counts etc etc is terrible also. when it should be the other way around. Yes we stump up big money for these games and in order to survive we should be getting no outside help from any third party which is clearly happening when you omit RULE 46..It also allows a massive angle shoot to happen......IMO

It should be up to every player at the table to look after Their own game without any outside help in anyway.
we are asked to (follow the action), (act in turn),(keep chips correctly stacked), (follow proper etiquette) so omitting this rule will penalise another player due to the carelessness off your employee.(could be a massive angle shoot) When it should be the players fault.The count is wrong by 20k and the all in winning player loses 20k chips he should off had. Thats something similar to pulling the plug years ago when playing cash to get a disconnection protection thingy where you just went to a show down.IN LIVE EVENT....... THE DEALER AND ANOTHER PLAYER COULD ANGLESHOOT THIS SO BAD. PLAYER A IS ALL IN FOR 115K CHIPS ....YEAH I CALL... SHOWDOWN LADS.....AK VQQ . PLAYER A WINS WITH A PAIR OFF KINGS. HOLD ON A SEC I HAVE 145K. SORRY JPS RULING IS 115K STANDS PLAYER B DELIGHTED WITH RESULT AS HE RETAINES 30 K MORE. UGGGHHH THIS IS JUST EVEN WORSE THAN THE ORIGINAL OP.

as i said we stump up lots off money for these games it is our responsibility to looKOUT 100% our own games and follow action AT ALL TIMES REMEMBERING THERE IS A CERTAIN ETIQUETTE TO FOLLOW.
EITHER OR online or live poker.

Dm.
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Old 12-01-14, 13:54   #39
ghostface
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However JP is becoming a stickler for the rules and imposing them out of their context. IMO if he is to become a world class TD he needs to have a rule saying the the TD will aspire to impose the rules as he sees the intent to be and as such can supersede all above rules and his say is final.
I think this is an awful idea to let a TD interpret rules as they see fit, would surely lead to way more confusion as to what the actual rules are
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Old 12-01-14, 14:40   #40
Arazi
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I think this is an awful idea to let a TD interpret rules as they see fit, would surely lead to way more confusion as to what the actual rules are
It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).

I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.
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