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Old 05-01-14, 06:03   #1
Arazi
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Ambiguous Bet? JP's game

This hand was discussed in the Live Updates thread but I'm posting it here as I think it merits discussion and I'm not a rules expert but IMO the rules quoted in the Live thread do not fully cover the action in the hand.

Blinds 250/500 with Antes and I 3 bet KK out of the SB and get 2 calls (UTG and Button), 9k in the pot preflop.

J22
I lead for 2400, UTG flats and Button makes it 8000. At this stage I ask him how much he has behind as hes in seat 9 and im in seat 2. He doesn't say anything but just puts his big chips to the front of a messy stack which includes lots of small denomination chips. I guesstimate roughly 20k.
I call, UTG folds. 27k in the middle.

The turn is a 5, I check.
He starts stacking his chips as if he's counting them and brings them together into a kind of triangle (I think he's gonna shove) and he simultaneously says "twenty two" while throwing out 2 5k chips and 2 100 chips (ie 10200).

There is then a discussion between the dealer and player as to the bet size (I think the dealer thinks he's all in but I'm not sure). I ask for a ruling. He says that his intention was 2200.

When JP comes the dealer relates everything correctly (obviously omitting some of the acting pre announcing twenty two.
JP rules the bet to be 2200.
FWIW the guy was about 800 chips short of 22000 at the time.

I dunno, I think it's not a great rule/ruling.
Any thoughts, is it black and white?
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Old 05-01-14, 07:11   #2
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If he says 22 while the blinds are in the hundreds (500) then it means 22 hundred??? as he announces bet then it stands?
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Old 05-01-14, 11:46   #3
Delooners
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
This hand was discussed in the Live Updates thread but I'm posting it here as I think it merits discussion and I'm not a rules expert but IMO the rules quoted in the Live thread do not fully cover the action in the hand.

Blinds 250/500 with Antes and I 3 bet KK out of the SB and get 2 calls (UTG and Button), 9k in the pot preflop.

J22
I lead for 2400, UTG flats and Button makes it 8000. At this stage I ask him how much he has behind as hes in seat 9 and im in seat 2. He doesn't say anything but just puts his big chips to the front of a messy stack which includes lots of small denomination chips. I guesstimate roughly 20k.
I call, UTG folds. 27k in the middle.

The turn is a 5, I check.
He starts stacking his chips as if he's counting them and brings them together into a kind of triangle (I think he's gonna shove) and he simultaneously says "twenty two" while throwing out 2 5k chips and 2 100 chips (ie 10200).

There is then a discussion between the dealer and player as to the bet size (I think the dealer thinks he's all in but I'm not sure). I ask for a ruling. He says that his intention was 2200.

When JP comes the dealer relates everything correctly (obviously omitting some of the acting pre announcing twenty two.
JP rules the bet to be 2200.
FWIW the guy was about 800 chips short of 22000 at the time.

I dunno, I think it's not a great rule/ruling.
Any thoughts, is it black and white?

It’s a strange one. The action described and a bet of 2200 into a pot of 27000 doesn’t make much sense, so easy to see where your coming from.

But, going by the ruling given by carlinrose in the live updates thread, it seems that the td has to give the benefit of the doubt to the other player when the bet amount is in doubt.

Seems like jp made the only ruling that he really could have made in fairness.
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Old 05-01-14, 12:01   #4
Arazi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delooners View Post
It’s a strange one. The action described and a bet of 2200 into a pot of 27000 doesn’t make much sense, so easy to see where your coming from.

But, going by the ruling given by carlinrose in the live updates thread, it seems that the td has to give the benefit of the doubt to the other player when the bet amount is in doubt.

Seems like jp made the only ruling that he really could have made in fairness.
Ye my problem really is with the "Rule".
Number one I think it's a bullshit rule. Surely if at 100/200 if there's 6500 in the pot and a guy says "Four" as he throws out a 5k chip then ruling that the bet is 400 can't be correct, so I have a big problem with the "Rule".

As to the "Ruling", I agree that it's difficult for JP but "rules" should be such that a TD can consider the full picture. That rule as quoted by Carlinrose doesn't take the previous betting rounds into account. It also doesn't take the fact that the lad threw 10200 into the middle into account. IMO it wasn't his intention to bet 2200, I think everything at the time points to that.
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Old 05-01-14, 12:07   #5
Hectorjelly
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The TDA rules clearly state that in cases like this the bet will be with the lower amount:

49: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting
Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value. Ex: “I bet five”. If it is unclear whether “five” means $500 or $5,000, the bet stands as $500. See Rules 2, 3 & 40.
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Old 05-01-14, 12:07   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
Ye my problem really is with the "Rule".
Number one I think it's a bullshit rule. Surely if at 100/200 if there's 6500 in the pot and a guy says "Four" as he throws out a 5k chip then ruling that the bet is 400 can't be correct, so I have a big problem with the "Rule".

As to the "Ruling", I agree that it's difficult for JP but "rules" should be such that a TD can consider the full picture. That rule as quoted by Carlinrose doesn't take the previous betting rounds into account. It also doesn't take the fact that the lad threw 10200 into the middle into account. IMO it wasn't his intention to bet 2200, I think everything at the time points to that.
I agree with you but to play devils advocate here if he was 800 short of 22k surely he would announce all in?
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Old 05-01-14, 12:29   #7
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IF someone says 22 and puts out 10k then I'm making it 22k not 2200 . However I've no idea on the rules and whatever official rule set there is seems to mean JP made the correct ruling.

Could he have not made 10200 the bet?
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Old 05-01-14, 13:08   #8
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Arazi, was there any confusion with players over the colours of the 1k chip vs 5k, and/or was the player a frequent visitor to JPs?
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Old 05-01-14, 13:11   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
he simultaneously says "twenty two" while throwing out 2 5k chips and 2 100 chips (ie 10200).
Is it not reasonable to assume to meant to throw out 2 1k chips and 2 100 chips, but accidentally put out the 5k chips by mistake instead of 1k's?

Guessing there was no 10k chips? In which case putting out four chips like this, including the 2 100 chips sounds like he did actually mean to put out 2,200.

Whatever the logic of that bet is is maybe beside the point.
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Old 05-01-14, 13:11   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RasTa View Post
IF someone says 22 and puts out 10k then I'm making it 22k not 2200 . However I've no idea on the rules and whatever official rule set there is seems to mean JP made the correct ruling.

Could he have not made 10200 the bet?

I was at the table for this one, it was a wierd one alright. The problem was you couldn't know if he meant twenty two hundreds or twenty two thousand. If you give him the benefit of the doubt, you could say he put in 2 yellow chips by mistake instead of two blue chips (yellow 5k, blue 1k).

I don't see how JP could rule any different. I am not going to comment on the play though as that is a totally different matter
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Old 05-01-14, 13:41   #11
Arazi
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Arazi, was there any confusion with players over the colours of the 1k chip vs 5k, and/or was the player a frequent visitor to JPs?
Nope Yellow and Blue. Tbh I'm not a regular so I don't know about yer man. I think my issue really is with the rule, it takes nothing else into consideration.
I actually think that the intended bet was 10200 but I dunno how/if that can be enforced.
The guy had Ace high so there's no way IMO that he intended to bet 2200.
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Old 05-01-14, 14:00   #12
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Out of interest, how did the player go about changing his intentions? What happened between his attempting to go all in and then changing his bet to very small?

As for the rules, a) the less they rely on TDs/Dealers trying to gauge peoples intent the better and b) the rules are neutral, and so when enforced will sometimes have a negative impact on other players. There is no way around this. For example, in this hand you would rather a big bet, but there are many situations in which a smaller bet would suit you better.

This is quite an unusual situation since the player has made several mistakes at once.
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Old 05-01-14, 14:13   #13
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Well I don't know what his intentions were and my view wasnt great (seat 2 to 9), but he started by sorting/counting/stacking his chips together - then he said "twenty two" as he threw the 4 chips in front of him. There was then some discussion between himself and the dealer and some of the other players started getting involved then so I just asked the dealer what was going on and then asked for a ruling.
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Old 05-01-14, 14:56   #14
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Was at table too, the player meant to bet 10,200 and just got real lucky he announced 22 by accident. Was in no way an angle it was just a big pot (with a bluff) and he panicked. I was on your side yesterday but cant blame jp its just the rule. I wouldnt blame the player either as when dealer was like 22k he was like okay imall in then, it wasnt him who called for the ruling to make it 2200.
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Old 05-01-14, 15:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
The TDA rules clearly state that in cases like this the bet will be with the lower amount:

49: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting
Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value. Ex: “I bet five”. If it is unclear whether “five” means $500 or $5,000, the bet stands as $500. See Rules 2, 3 & 40.
Think Arazi has resigned that the rule was implemented in the correct way........ I assume is is questioning the fairness of it....
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Old 05-01-14, 17:37   #16
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Sounds like he was looking to get a read on you and knew he could take advantage of the rules if he didn't like what was coming. Piss poor etiquette. Either that or he had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What standard was he?
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Old 06-01-14, 10:26   #17
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the problem is you are assuming intention.

Unfortunately in situations like these (outside of poker too) it is impossible to prove intention.

You can only be held accountable for what you actually do not what someone else assumes you should/would do.

In the reverse, if the had thrown out more chips than he intended he would be bound to that bet as well.

No matter what play acting (or genuine display) he makes before he bets, it is only the chips that hit the felt, or the verbal declaration that is binding.

If someone is showboating counting their chips in an effort to get you to give up some free information before betting 10% of his stack as a wind up, then the show boating is irrelevant, no one can say whether or not he intended to bet more, or that he should bet more because it looked like he was preparing to go all in. It is up to you to not react to his display and not give away the information he is seeking.
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Old 07-01-14, 02:09   #18
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If he pushed 10200 across the line should that bet not stand regardless of what he said . ??
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Old 07-01-14, 02:48   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Was at table too, the player meant to bet 10,200 and just got real lucky he announced 22 by accident. Was in no way an angle it was just a big pot (with a bluff) and he panicked. I was on your side yesterday but cant blame jp its just the rule. I wouldnt blame the player either as when dealer was like 22k he was like okay imall in then, it wasnt him who called for the ruling to make it 2200.
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Sounds like he was looking to get a read on you and knew he could take advantage of the rules if he didn't like what was coming. Piss poor etiquette. Either that or he had absolutely no idea what he was doing. What standard was he?
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Old 07-01-14, 10:16   #20
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If he pushed 10200 across the line should that bet not stand regardless of what he said . ??
if the chips hit the felt before he speaks yes.
just cos he's thinking one thing but doing something else doesn't mean we can change his bet for him.
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