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Old 27-11-14, 07:33   #1
hopelw555
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Call or Fold

I witnessed a hand I've been thinking about a lot recently.

Heads up in a small tournament, prizes are 400 to first, 250 to second. There are 400k chips in play and blinds have reached 10k/20k.

Small blind calls with 34s. Big blind looks down and sees AKos, putting his remaining 56k into the pot. Should the small blind call?


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Old 27-11-14, 07:52   #2
fivebetbluf3
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Yes
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Old 27-11-14, 16:49   #3
Hectorjelly
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He has to call less than two blinds, leave the cards out they are irrelevant.
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Old 27-11-14, 17:09   #4
Flushdraw
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There's only 20bb in play, and the BB has 4 of them. SB should be in a shove or fold mode, limp/call or limp/fold is pretty bad.
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Old 27-11-14, 17:27   #5
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Btn has to call another 56k on top?
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Old 27-11-14, 18:45   #6
hopelw555
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Yes 56k on top (76k total)


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Old 28-11-14, 02:52   #7
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Small blinde needs to have 38% equity I think if he has to call 56k more to win 116k.

Assuming BB knows he has likely very little fold equity he's prob only shoving a hand in the top 50% from hands in which case folding is OK, presumably. I await to be corrected.

34ss is one of the very worst hands vs ATC I'm guessing.

I've no pokerstove here..

Is there not a case for folding and maintaining a 3:1 chip lead going to next hand?

I think that's what I do in-game...perhaps it's a mistake....hopefully some else points out why it's wrong mathematically...HJ??

Last edited by bustamoves; 28-11-14 at 03:00.
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Old 28-11-14, 04:54   #8
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
Small blinde needs to have 38% equity I think if he has to call 56k more to win 116k.

Assuming BB knows he has likely very little fold equity he's prob only shoving a hand in the top 50% from hands in which case folding is OK, presumably. I await to be corrected.

34ss is one of the very worst hands vs ATC I'm guessing.

I've no pokerstove here..

Is there not a case for folding and maintaining a 3:1 chip lead going to next hand?

I think that's what I do in-game...perhaps it's a mistake....hopefully some else points out why it's wrong mathematically...HJ??
The BB shoves for less than 2 blind into a pot with 2 blinds in it, so you need around 30% equity (if it were exactly pot sized you would need 33% equity)

This is against top 30% of hands

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=generic

32% equity

Against top 50%

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=generic

36% equity

Although as FD says call fold or call call are both bad lines and indicative of someone who doesn't really understand what they are doing

With this little chips in play your hand really makes no difference.

Edit: and just for fun, against the hand the guy had its a fistpump call

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...2=ak&s=generic

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 28-11-14 at 04:58.
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Old 28-11-14, 05:40   #9
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he shoves for 76k (56k more i.e. nearly 3 big blinds), yeah?
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Old 28-11-14, 06:04   #10
Hectorjelly
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he shoves for 76k (56k more i.e. nearly 3 big blinds), yeah?
Sorry misread the op, in that case yeah slightly bad call. Only for a few % points, and against his opponents hand its a call
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Old 28-11-14, 06:41   #11
Nuttkickker
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limp calling from the sb is poor and shoving is far better
when sb limps there is 20k+20k+4k(assuming theres antes) in the pot already so when bb puts his remaining 56k into the pot its another 56k to call for sb to win exactly 100k so pot odds are 1.8-1 or he needs 36% equity to call. 34,s has enough just enough equity to call v a 50% range as HJ showed
as a general rule if u are getting 2-1 pot odds u can call any 2 cards based purely on maths but there are often other factors for folding spots like these.anyone playing the hand as described would unlikely be aware of pot odds or hand ranges though
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Old 28-11-14, 06:44   #12
bustamoves
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Do you guys give any merit to the additional point of folding to maintain the chip > 3:1 ratio advantage?

Because there are so few BBs in play my instinct says it's actually more important to avoid doubling him up if at all possible and if that means giving up a tiny bit in equity my thinking is the benefit of not doubling him up and swinging the momentum back his way a bit outweighs that marginal equity given up.

Another thing I find interesting about this spot is. It's possible to find a heads up opponent at low stakes or in a live low stakes tourny who will let you limp here and only shove if he has a certain range. e.g. at least one picture card...or for argument's sake say a hand in top 35%.

You then get to see a flop in position without committing any more chips in which case limp/folding might be the best of the 3 options with a hand like 3s4s vs a very specific opponent type.

Last edited by bustamoves; 28-11-14 at 06:54.
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Old 28-11-14, 07:26   #13
Nuttkickker
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Do you guys give any merit to the additional point of folding to maintain the chip > 3:1 ratio advantage
Purely by maths its just about a call but as you say given the stacks this is a spot where it should be folded. Definitely don't agree with limping with such short stacks though
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Old 28-11-14, 12:00   #14
Hectorjelly
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Another thing I find interesting about this spot is. It's possible to find a heads up opponent at low stakes or in a live low stakes tourny who will let you limp here and only shove if he has a certain range. e.g. at least one picture card...or for argument's sake say a hand in top 35%.

You then get to see a flop in position without committing any more chips in which case limp/folding might be the best of the 3 options with a hand like 3s4s vs a very specific opponent type.
No, because him folding preflop is the biggest mistake he can make
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Old 28-11-14, 12:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bustamoves View Post
...
Another thing I find interesting about this spot is. It's possible to find a heads up opponent at low stakes or in a live low stakes tourny who will let you limp here and only shove if he has a certain range. e.g. at least one picture card...or for argument's sake say a hand in top 35%.
....
Possible, but unlikely. Looks like you're trying to find an argument in favour of the limp even though it's a bad move. Not saying it was you that made the play but limping here is never good. Shove or fold are both fine and you should use your read of the opponent to decide which one is better, rather than trying to work out if you might get away with limping with 34s.
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