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Old 17-10-14, 23:03   #1
BobSloane
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QQ on button 0.5/$1 onlune cash - 120bbs deep

Preflop and turn I'm wondering most what to do. Bit out of poker practice

UTG(seat 6) is playing 30/25 with 3b of 16%
MP(seat 1) is playing 25/12 with 3b of 8.5%
Huge laggy fish in the small blind(seat 4) playing 45/31 3b 13%
Im about 25/20

All about 150 hands.




Table Vasylivka (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6
Seat 3: hero( $122.59 USD )
Seat 1: Fergie1867 ( $187.25 USD )
Seat 2: MrArtek ( $101.90 USD )
Seat 4: Tornet ( $383.47 USD )
Seat 6: fulhouse4me ( $100 USD )
Seat 5: pokey227 ( $100 USD )

Tornet posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
pokey227 posts big blind [$1 USD].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Qd Qh ]

fulhouse4me raises [$2.50 USD]
Fergie1867 raises [$8 USD]
MrArtek folds
hero calls [$8 USD]
Tornet folds
pokey227 folds
fulhouse4me calls [$5.50 USD]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 5c, 7s ]
fulhouse4me checks
Fergie1867 bets [$16.15 USD]
hero calls [$16.15 USD]
fulhouse4me folds

** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
Fergie1867 bets [$36.60 USD]


edit....Sorry i've tried to convert it but cant. On turn he bets 36 into 58 and I've 98 behind

Last edited by BobSloane; 17-10-14 at 23:16.
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Old 18-10-14, 08:41   #2
Hectorjelly
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Utg 3bet stats are irrelevant, what is his utg opening %?

In any case you played it perfectly. I kind of want to fold it pre given its utg vs utg +1, but given the fish its probably a call since your implied odds are better and their ranges are probably looser. On the turn you beat nothing so a fold is good.
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Old 20-10-14, 10:51   #3
AndyFatBastard
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Looks like a fun table.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with HJ. Preflop is good and you'd need a good reason to get stubborn on the turn here. You haven't given one so a fold is fine.
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Old 21-10-14, 23:27   #4
BobSloane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
In any case you played it perfectly.
TY

obv I shove turn like a total fool and get shown kings. Actually didn't think much of it at the time but then was thinking about it after and thought it was terrible.


Hand from tonight.
Best line on river? Villian 27/18 170 hands fwiw. Pot is $145 and he has $245 behind. We haven't tangled much up to this

$0.50/$1 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, October 21, 17:41:42 EDT 2014
Table Sacramento (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6

Seat 2: hero ( $409.64 USD )
Seat 6: CHaSoVoYMoscow ( $315.70 USD )
Seat 5: LucBi ( $51.46 USD )
Seat 3: LucKH33L ( $100 USD )
Seat 1: bigmoneyRM ( $78.02 USD )
Seat 4: perfectshot ( $98.93 USD )

bigmoneyRM posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
hero posts big blind [$1 USD].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Ad As ]

LucKH33L folds
perfectshot calls [$1 USD]
LucBi calls [$1 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow raises [$3 USD]
bigmoneyRM folds
hero raises [$13 USD]
perfectshot folds
LucBi folds
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$11 USD]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Ac, 5d ]

hero bets [$17 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$17 USD]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
hero bets [$40 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$40 USD]

** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
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Old 22-10-14, 05:03   #5
Hectorjelly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSloane View Post
Hand from tonight.
Best line on river? Villian 27/18 170 hands fwiw. Pot is $145 and he has $245 behind. We haven't tangled much up to this

$0.50/$1 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, October 21, 17:41:42 EDT 2014
Table Sacramento (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6

Seat 2: hero ( $409.64 USD )
Seat 6: CHaSoVoYMoscow ( $315.70 USD )
Seat 5: LucBi ( $51.46 USD )
Seat 3: LucKH33L ( $100 USD )
Seat 1: bigmoneyRM ( $78.02 USD )
Seat 4: perfectshot ( $98.93 USD )

bigmoneyRM posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
hero posts big blind [$1 USD].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Ad As ]

LucKH33L folds
perfectshot calls [$1 USD]
LucBi calls [$1 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow raises [$3 USD]
bigmoneyRM folds
hero raises [$13 USD]
perfectshot folds
LucBi folds
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$11 USD]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Ac, 5d ]

hero bets [$17 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$17 USD]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
hero bets [$40 USD]
CHaSoVoYMoscow calls [$40 USD]

** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
Very tough hand, hard to know what to do without a good read on your opponent, depending on the player you could make an argument for almost every line, bet fold, bet call, check raise, check call. I don't like the 3 bet pre unless you have been 3betting a lot, he could have literally any two cards since you are so deep - he is getting 30:1 implied odds pre. I would rather be in his position with TJo than yours with aces. Discount all of this if the player is bad.

With no read bet fold or check call is probably best, seems very nitty but this deep most people won't bluff (over a bet), and a set is pretty unlikely given his line. If villain is capable of bluffing or overvaluing a set then this is a very bad line, but against most people its good. Check call is good because you induce bluffs from flushdraws, but bad because you lose value from a lot of two pair hands that will check behind, or may bet smaller than you would.

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 22-10-14 at 07:09.
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Old 22-10-14, 17:38   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Very tough hand, hard to know what to do without a good read on your opponent, depending on the player you could make an argument for almost every line, bet fold, bet call, check raise, check call. I don't like the 3 bet pre unless you have been 3betting a lot, he could have literally any two cards since you are so deep - he is getting 30:1 implied odds pre. I would rather be in his position with TJo than yours with aces. Discount all of this if the player is bad.

With no read bet fold or check call is probably best, seems very nitty but this deep most people won't bluff (over a bet), and a set is pretty unlikely given his line. If villain is capable of bluffing or overvaluing a set then this is a very bad line, but against most people its good. Check call is good because you induce bluffs from flushdraws, but bad because you lose value from a lot of two pair hands that will check behind, or may bet smaller than you would.
This has to be a troll I can make sense of virtually none of your logic. You would rather see a flop 4 way oop for a single raise than get the pot HU with substantially more in the pot and initiative, and claim villain (playing 27/18 and raising two limpers) could be peeling ATC vs a 3b? He's also getting nowhere near 30:1 implied since we wont stack off this deep on a lot of runouts, but will often put substantially more with worse hands vs bigger bets to counteract a chunk of his implied odds, especially if he's peeling super wide as you suggest.

B/c is the only line that makes sense otr. Villain has 10-15 combos of broadway Ax which may call, 6 possible set and 1 or 2 2P combos which may raise, and only 1 combo of 9c7c that beats us and may or may not even be in his range. He also wont bluff or valuecut himself even close enough when checked to given the strength of our line
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Old 23-10-14, 14:34   #7
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Yeah this is an easy bet/call. If he turns over some ludicrous 9x7x combo then gg him.
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Old 23-10-14, 15:59   #8
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As you allude to winning, when you 3bet this deep and then bet every street you are representing aces. If you bet 80 to 100 on the river and he shoves he is never bluffing, and he is almost never shoving worse. Why would a set flat call on a really dangerous board to get to a bad river and shove then? This deep a set has to be scared of an overset. Thinking a regular 50/1 player puts two buyins in on the river with two pair against someone clearly representing a set of aces is pretty optimistic. If I had 55 and somehow got to the river like this I would just call, as I would expect no worse hand to call a shove.

As for preflop this is a pretty good spot to flat call, if you flat call pre you can hope one of the short stack spazes out preflop which gives you a chance to win a huge pot (which is easy to play) since you have severely underrepped your hand, when you 3bet you get the fish out of the pot and create a bloated pot out of position with a vulnerable hand out of position witha very high stack to pot ratio. Its important to just call pre with AA, KK sometimes for balancing reasons and this seems like a great spot for it.

The guy is raising two fish from the button, I would be very surprised if 97 isn't in his range, 47 as well.

If you bet call what hand do you realistically expect to see?
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Old 24-10-14, 04:35   #9
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You're talking about getting fish to spazz pre.. there is no evidence for this being even remotely likely, they have to call $2 more having put in $1 already, so that's exactly what they'll do. Then we see a flop oop, have no clue where we stand vs absurdly wide ranges on a variety of textures, and have the worst possible position acting before the fish on every street and without initiative. Possibly the worst spot I could imagine to start thinking about balancing BB peeling ranges.. In a hand with guys who are probably struggling to balance on their chairs!

As for the river, it's the fact that we've polarised our range which makes it such a trivial bet>>>check, and we can bet pretty big too since if villain has Ax (hopefully without a diamond blocker) he'll be more inclined to call when our range for value is reduced to only a few combos of AA,AK. XdXd and KdXx make for decent barrelling hands in our spot so unless villain is aware of our barrelling tendencies he should be looking up our third barrel with TP+ on brick rivers or else folding turn.

I don't understand why you're so worried about the river raise. We took the line that is best for our range, print money when he stations, and the rare time we get raised we only need like 25% to call. Villain has decent stats but I doubt he's an above average reg after making it 3bb over two limps pre, so I'd definitely assume he can over value a set some portion of the time, bluff some other small portion of the time with whiffed draws, and wont always get here with 9c7c. All of which leaves me happily clicking the call button comforted in the knowledge I've made a GTO call even if he somehow has it.
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Last edited by Winning!; 24-10-14 at 04:44.
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Old 24-10-14, 05:38   #10
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by Winning! View Post
All of which leaves me happily clicking the call button comforted in the knowledge I've made a GTO call even if he somehow has it.
In my experience of playing deep (and I used to play a lot of 300bb deep tables) a raise over a lead here will always be the nuts. Not the second nuts, but the nuts.

I disagree with a lot of what you say, first of all this is probably the first hand Bob has 3bet. When he 3bets deep like this it will set alarm bells off to the good player. It would be great if he had already established a balanced 3betting range, but he hasn't; so its very dangerous to give away the strength of his hand when he has so much money behind and three streets to play out of position. I think you are really overvaluing how good aces are in this spot, and how important position is. Position is already really important, 300bbs deep its more important than the cards you hold. Keeping the pot small here is really good play, bloating it so you can get owed on later streets is not.

You hold bad relative position to the button, but really good relative position to the shortstacks. Their presence in the hand also means the button will be forced to play somewhat straightforwardly, making your life easier. With aces it isn't so important to keep the initiative.

What you say about barrelling is totally irrelevant unless Bob has been barrelling, which he hasn't. I would guess that his opponent would not think Bob capable of barrelling every street with air here.

I talked about the fish spazzing out because that is literally the only way you have of stacking the buttons QQ/AK/JJ preflop etc, and is a major plus of just calling pre.
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Old 25-10-14, 00:10   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
first of all this is probably the first hand Bob has 3bet. When he 3bets deep like this it will set alarm bells off to the good player. It would be great if he had already established a balanced 3betting range, but he hasn't


What you say about barrelling is totally irrelevant unless Bob has been barrelling, which he hasn't. I would guess that his opponent would not think Bob capable of barrelling every street with air here.
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Very interesting views from both of ye. Much more insight than I hoped for or expected. We had not been playing deep for very long maybe only 30 hands. Villain got his stack from getting QQ in v KK pre for 100bbs and making a straight and flopping a set of 5s in position on a dry A high board (and slowplaying) against a fishy player with TPGK. I had 3 bet villain a couple of times but not since we were deep. Only one that seems remotely relevant was 100bbs deep when I 3bet him from bb, cbet A high dry flop and c/folded turn.

fwiw Winning I think villain is folding AJ on the river if i bet, but probably folding it on the turn too. HectorJelly has my number here - i'm barrelling off with air here almost never. Also I'm not used to or comfortable at all playing this deep

Spoiler


Thanks for the replies

Last edited by BobSloane; 25-10-14 at 00:14.
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Old 25-10-14, 13:05   #12
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Stacks are deep enough to set mine but the expression "no set no bet" would often apply here.

Flop puts you in a tricky spot with no overs coming. That boards screams set and original raiser still to act behind you if you call. No harm peeling the turn in position at this stage but I'd fold to any further action. (Check raise behind or second bullet from original 3-bettor, esp if utg is hanging around)

You're usually beat in this situation or facing at worst AK with flush draw. Not worth doing your stack and a turn call commits you to calling a third (river)bullet.

IMO
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Old 25-10-14, 13:07   #13
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You always cold call prefop btw with these stacks. Fold if original raiser 4-bets pre.
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Old 25-10-14, 13:11   #14
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If he is insta calling that all in then I think bet fold is pretty bad since he isn't very good at hand reading any could definitely over value worse hands. I'd love to know what he would have done to a river lead.

I think you played it well, checking the river gives him a chance to bluff + means a much bigger chance of stacking an underset.
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Old 25-10-14, 13:38   #15
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IMO: Re the 2nd hand the two most important factors are that you're up against the only stack that can do you a lot of damage, and you're out of position.

Imo your bet sizing is slightly too big. You want to fire 3 bullets here without being raised light and without putting your whole stack in jeopardy. Remember aces is just 1 pair. People massively inflate pots oop IMO, and if often costs them.

Raising to $9 is enough to get rid of the limpers and also prevents you losing value with your hand. It also gives big stack a chance to 4-bet and then you can shove and take it. If he calls $9 you can now fire 3 ~50% bullets to maximise value while creating a situation in that if you're raised you're almost always beat.

Bet sizing is so important
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Old 27-10-14, 04:45   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I disagree with a lot of what you say
I would generally welcome this in the interest of further discussion but there's so little to discuss here.. You make baseless claims about table dynamic/heros frequencies/barrelling tendencies all of which you say detract from my position but none of which you have any grounds for since OP never mentioned them. Any moderately decent aggressive player is 3betting wider than AA vs a BTN iso here, it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise in 2014. It's also absurd to suggest we are building a pot to get 'owned' on later streets. Idk if you're subscribing to some old school mentality that we might get tied to our hand, build a pot too big to get away from or that. All we're doing is playing range vs range, and making informed decisions based on our estimations of these ranges and where we stand in ours at every point in the hand. Peeling this 4 way oop makes range estimations incredibly tough on later streets, and inevitably leads to poorer decision making, there is no way I would do that instead of 3betting just because of the very remote possibility we get stacked in a 600bb pot.

Also not a fan of the river line. Our range is already distinctly polar after the turn making it a pretty unneccessary spot for villain to bluff or thin valuebet Ax when checked to, just bet big to get value from his TP/2P/sets
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Old 27-10-14, 05:38   #17
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My baseless claims were assumptions about the OP's image/play, that mostly turned out to be correct. I didn't create them out of thin air, it was what I guessed based on the OPs recent post. The advice was for the OP, not a theoretical player
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Old 27-10-14, 23:52   #18
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I think Winnings river line is best and i just got lucky the way i played it because of what he held. I expect he may have just called the river but when I check he bet small to induce a spaz shove. When he bet small I actually thought his most likely hand was AK.
I've played 2200 hands this month which is probably more than I've played total in the last two years...ie I'm a completely recreational player. I've not encountered this player before or since so I think talk of balancing my 3betting range from the bb versus a button iso 300bbs deep is cool and all but not all that relevant

Quote:
As for the river, it's the fact that we've polarised our range which makes it such a trivial bet>>>check, and we can bet pretty big too since if villain has Ax (hopefully without a diamond blocker) he'll be more inclined to call when our range for value is reduced to only a few combos of AA,AK. XdXd and KdXx make for decent barrelling hands in our spot so unless villain is aware of our barrelling tendencies he should be looking up our third barrel with TP+ on brick rivers or else folding turn.
This is very cool explanation although i think you may be giving a 27/18 party 100NL player a bit too much credit to break it down like this. I used to post hands and comment on hands back in the day and hectorjelly may have picked up on this to some extent with regard to 3betting tendancies or my likelyhood to empty the clip for 150-170bbs on a bluff oop.

Just trying to broker the peace here. Both contributions were very much appreciated
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