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Old 08-01-14, 14:03   #21
JP Poker
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Hi Guys,

I wanted to let this run for a few days so people could air their opinions before I came on and replied.

I spoke to Ciaran on Saturday night and mentioned to him this is a rule which has seen a change in the most recent TDA's summit of June'13. At the time I wasn't 100% sure what was the deciding factor on determining if the bet was at the higher or lower amount but told Ciaran it was to do with the last round of betting.

I've since checked it out and under the old rule...

If a player makes an ambiguous bet were the bet amount could have two meanings as in this case with twenty two (2,200 or 22,000). Under the old rule, if the last round of betting was at the higher amount i.e bet of 22k then this round of betting would also be 22k.

The betting action on the flop was 8k so under both the old rule and current rule the ambiguous bet of twenty two would mean 2,200.

The TDA added a new rule in this years summit which I personally love.

2: Player Responsibilities
Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands,
make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards
visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a
mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply
with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.


This is in addition to a rule added in the summit of 2011

3: Official Terminology of Tournament Poker
Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call,
fold, check, all-in, pot (in pot-limit only), and complete
. Regional terms may also meet this
standard. The use of non-standard language is at player’s risk because it may result in a ruling
other than what the player intended. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions
clear. See also Rules 40 & 49.


The combination of these two rules sends a clear message from the TDA that players need to take more responsibility for their actions on a poker table as ambiguous bets and unclear non official poker terminology may be ruled differently to the players intentions.

This is a prime example of intentions been different to their action.

At the time I thought his intention was to bet 10,200, which would make sense as the pot was approx 27k and indeed other players on the table thought this also.

However the player in question announce twenty two before he placed any chips into the pot, and verbal declarations are binding.

37: Verbal Bet Declarations / Acting in Turn / Undercalls
A: Players must act in turn. Verbal betting declarations in turn are binding. Chips put in the pot
in turn stay in the pot. An undercall (betting less than the current call amount) is a mandatory
full call if made facing an opening bet multi-way on any betting round, or facing any bet heads
up. In all other situations, TD’s discretion applies. For purposes of this rule, in blind games the
posted BB is the opening bet on the first round.



So while I thought the players intention was 10,200 because he made his verbal declaration before placing chips into the pot this was not an option for me to rule.

Leaving 2,200 or 22,000 as the only options available. Which has been answered above.

I hope this clears things up and explains the though process on the ruling.
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Old 08-01-14, 14:33   #22
pokerhand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Poker View Post
Hi Guys,

I wanted to let this run for a few days so people could air their opinions before I came on and replied.

Spoiler


I hope this clears things up and explains the though process on the ruling.
Hi JP, what I would like to know is if, as it was in this instance, why was the unclear bet deemed binding if there was no action after the bet. Would it not make more sense just to get clarification from the player to what bet he wanted to make and use that clarification as the binding bet?
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Old 13-10-14, 21:08   #23
Goodluck2me
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerhand View Post
Hi JP, what I would like to know is if, as it was in this instance, why was the unclear bet deemed binding if there was no action after the bet. Would it not make more sense just to get clarification from the player to what bet he wanted to make and use that clarification as the binding bet?
Yes, all solved painlessly if the dealer says quickly "is that 2,200 or 22,000".
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