£1/2 6max, c/f or c/c or shove

[digiman]

2 Similar hands that I played yesterday at £1/2 and €2/4.

The £1/2 hand. This guy is a 2BB/100 winner over 300k hands at 1/2. He plays 21/18 and folds to 3bets 66% and 4bets 17%. I have 7.1k hands datamined on him. The site is ipoker and I am new here at 6max or at least havn't played here in a while. Since I have started playing here I am playing 25/21 with very high agression stats and a 3bet of 7.5% with it pretty well balanced from BTN to BB.

Now I'm wondering do we get value on this river? Do 88-JJ call here or get it in earlier? Also is it just me or will he show up with 9x here a lot?

My own feeling is that c/f is slighly better than shove is much better than c/c as I do get into spots like this with air a decent bit and I often find people fold the river here or else they have trips.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($485.75)
UTG+1 ($139.35)
CO ($200)
BTN ($271.72)
Hero ($240.35)
BB ($233.55)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, CO calls $14

Flop: ($42, 2 players)
Hero bets $24, CO calls $24

Turn: ($90, 2 players)
Hero bets $48, CO calls $48

River: ($186, 2 players)
Hero has £108 affective behind

[colquhom]

There's no way you can check fold. With someone who has 66% fold to 3 bet who plays those stats the only nines they have are 99, and 2 combos of 109s and 98s probably. He can presumably have the 2 lower sets too so thats like 11 combos of hands that beat you. I mean, just jj and 1010 is 12 which i doubt fold. Theres also a non-zero chance of him having qxss which he'll obv also call the river with. I'd just shove.

Also, do you think he would shove the turn with fd and 87s repping the nine or would he call again?

If he doesn't what do you think he does on the river with all of those if you check? For that reason i dont think cc can be TOO horrific. I mean if he shoves 11 combos of hands he beat,, he only need to be bluffing like 3/4 times to break even. The four 78s in itself is enough, even w/o all the other ss combos. He could value shove the qxss etc. So i dont think cc is acutally that bad.

I dont actually know whether cc or shove is better but certainly don't check fold.

[digiman]

I think he would probably get his draws in on the flop to be honest and may or may not value bet a Q on the river. I actually don't know wether he does value bet it but at a guess at this level I think most players would just check it back more often than not. So by the river I think hes doesn't have draws to much and has more hands like 88-JJ or 9x, hes not betting 88-JJ but is betting 9x so thats why I think c/f is better.

[colquhom]

I think he would probably get his draws in on the flop to be honest and may or may not value bet a Q on the river. I actually don't know wether he does value bet it but at a guess at this level I think most players would just check it back more often than not. So by the river I think hes doesn't have draws to much and has more hands like 88-JJ or 9x, hes not betting 88-JJ but is betting 9x so thats why I think c/f is better.

would you expect him to get kqss, qjss, q10ss and the non spade combos of 78s in on the flop?

I fully accept he'll prob get all his axss hands and 78ss in on the flop but are you positive about the aforementioned?

I play lots of hu too so maybe my ranges are wrong.

[digiman]

would you expect him to get kqss, qjss, q10ss and the non spade combos of 78s in on the flop?

I fully accept he'll prob get all his axss hands and 78ss in on the flop but are you positive about the aforementioned?

I play lots of hu too so maybe my ranges are wrong.

Well in 3b pots I think you are better just shoving your draws here, I know if it was me in this spot I would be just shoving here with those hands you mention, you are going to miss a lot of turns and if he barrels again well you kinda have to give up really when you are only 100bb deep and your equity will be greatest on the flop also.

[colquhom]

Well in 3b pots I think you are better just shoving your draws here, I know if it was me in this spot I would be just shoving here with those hands you mention, you are going to miss a lot of turns and if he barrels again well you kinda have to give up really when you are only 100bb deep and your equity will be greatest on the flop also.

Are you raise calling them or are you just shoving them? If you're shoving how do you balance that?

[pok3rplaya]

c/f unless he calls 3bets so light that he can have enough 57 and non-strong fd's.

[digiman]

Are you raise calling them or are you just shoving them? If you're shoving how do you balance that?

Call 3bets pre with QQ+ now and again and I wouldn't be always be shipping here, depends on the player really and how much they are 3betting me. If someone is 3betting me a lot and cbetting most flops well I am shoving over them more.

[colquhom]

Call 3bets pre with QQ+ now and again and I wouldn't be always be shipping here, depends on the player really and how much they are 3betting me. If someone is 3betting me a lot and cbetting most flops well I am shoving over them more.

Ye obv calling w/qq+ is standard sometimes but are you shipping the flop with them too or are you calling/raise-calling?

Also you say you don't do it all the time and that your 3bet range is "balanced" from button to bb which presumably means wide but not insane so its prob safe to say that he's not necessarily gonna ship the flop w/ all his draws either.

I mean you need to call 100:300 if you cc, id just be very surprised that with the texture of the board he doesn't have even 3 combos of missed draws....

[gorrrr72]

You beat everything that checks behind so check calling is probably the worst option. He can't really have a busted FD that he can bluff at now. I guess you could check/fold but I don't think I have a check/fold in me here either. Just the funky way people can play KK sometimes and JJ 1010 might call a shove too. He might even put you on AKss and call it off with 8's. I think you are right about a FD or SD getting it in on the flop so it's doubtful he has that (but I wouldn't totally rule it out).
It's a bad spot a lot but I will shove here unless the guy is a total nit.
I think shoving for value here would be profitable in the long run.

[digiman]

Ye obv calling w/qq+ is standard sometimes but are you shipping the flop with them too or are you calling/raise-calling?

Also you say you don't do it all the time and that your 3bet range is "balanced" from button to bb which presumably means wide but not insane so its prob safe to say that he's not necessarily gonna ship the flop w/ all his draws either.

I mean you need to call 100:300 if you cc, id just be very surprised that with the texture of the board he doesn't have even 3 combos of missed draws....

I just don't see a solid winning player getting to this river with some missed draw like this and then shoving river when he only reps 9x.

About the balancing thing I guess it's not something that I am too worried about atm, I am pretty new to the site and people are not going to have much info on me anyway. I will have more info on them than they have on me so for now I am going to try and take the most optimal lines in a vacum I guess until I think people are adjusting to me, which at the end of the day hardly any of these players are gonna take much notice anyway.

[Hectorjelly]

I can't understand doing anything other than shoving, its hard for him to have a 9, his most likely hand is some sort of pair. The pot is too big to check fold, and betting has a bigger chance of getting money in good. (Assuming he won't bluff with missed draws)

I don't like your bet sizing in either hand although I realise I'm in a minority.

I don't think I have ever, or ever will fold an overpair if I somehow get to the river with half a pot bet left heads up. (Baring some unfortunate 2345 board etc)

[digiman]

What would your betsizing be in both hands?

[Hectorjelly]

Just re-reading what I wrote, I should of said good overpair. I might choose to believe someone if I have a weak or medium one.

I'd bet bigger, I don't like getting to the river with a half pot left, it puts you in the unfortunate position of having to call all in getting a good price even when draws hit. I would also check the turn a lot. I'd give up a lot on that turn if I had nothing (very bad card for your range), so I check with good hands as well.

[TommyGunne]

Imo your betsizing and line are fine, and I'd jam river and expect to get paid a lot, especially with your image.

[Moneymaker]

Yeah I ship also.

[Line Us]

I'd say if the villians in any of these hands had more prior hisory with digman then these are easy shoves as he will be getting looked up reasonably wide and because he'll be barrelling so often with air then he has to be somewhat balance and shove these hands too. Without any history though I still think the 2/4 hand is a shove because the 10s is a card you should be bluffing alot anyway so you should be looked up by all Qx's, theres just too much value missed by checking.

In the 1/2 hand I'd say his range is fairly clearly defined as 88/1010/JJ and then he'll have you crushed some % of the time but not very often, like he shouldnt have many 9x hands in his 3bet calling range surely and wont have many sets here either. The problem is all his bluffcatchers should fold to the third barrell so there's not a whole lot of value in shoving, but you cant check call because he should check back his bluff catchers always and only bet the rare times he has the nuts. I'd say check fold is best here without previous history but if he had any idea how Digiman plays then its an easy shove as you will get called by 1010 and JJ pretty often i'd think, well you would by me anyway.

[digiman]

I'd say if the villians in any of these hands had more prior hisory with digman then these are easy shoves as he will be getting looked up reasonably wide and because he'll be barrelling so often with air then he has to be somewhat balance and shove these hands too. Without any history though I still think the 2/4 hand is a shove because the 10s is a card you should be bluffing alot anyway so you should be looked up by all Qx's, theres just too much value missed by checking.

In the 1/2 hand I'd say his range is fairly clearly defined as 88/1010/JJ and then he'll have you crushed some % of the time but not very often, like he shouldnt have many 9x hands in his 3bet calling range surely and wont have many sets here either. The problem is all his bluffcatchers should fold to the third barrell so there's not a whole lot of value in shoving, but you cant check call because he should check back his bluff catchers always and only bet the rare times he has the nuts. I'd say check fold is best here without previous history but if he had any idea how Digiman plays then its an easy shove as you will get called by 1010 and JJ pretty often i'd think, well you would by me anyway.

It's a pity we can't play on the same tables then so!!

[cardshark202]

Yes like the other hand, this is a straightforward shove. I'm not sure what's making you think about check-folding monsters on the river all of a sudden...

[Closed_Account]

Yes like the other hand, this is a straightforward shove. I'm not sure what's making you think about check-folding monsters on the river all of a sudden...

Jesus Yeah plus a million. I can only imagine if this is something you are regularly doing then it couldnt be good. At least I cant see how it could be,