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    Call on River, Must both show?

    What is the general standard rule around the country here?

    €550 buyin - nearing bubble (dunno if this matters?)

    Hero on button calls every street to be shown winning hand.

    He goes to muck but dealer says he must show.

    Floor called & again he must show.

    Is this standard?

    #2
    Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
    What is the general standard rule around the country here?

    €550 buyin - nearing bubble (dunno if this matters?)

    Hero on button calls every street to be shown winning hand.

    He goes to muck but dealer says he must show.

    Floor called & again he must show.

    Is this standard?
    My own interpretation of the rule is any player at the table may ask to see them, but the dealer has no right to insist like he did hear, it would also be considered a pretty shitty thing for a player other than the hero to ask to see them but technically can be done.

    Comment


      #3
      i have done noting but check this spot since i came home and going by wsop rules if any player ask to see the hand you have to show but other wise no now that i no this i wont be doing that again lol

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
        i have done noting but check this spot since i came home and going by wsop rules if any player ask to see the hand you have to show but other wise no now that i no this i wont be doing that again lol
        TBH in your spot I just fire them into the muck & pretend not to hear the dealer

        Comment


          #5
          What was the reason given why he must show? Seems a bit odd

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ghostface View Post
            What was the reason given why he must show? Seems a bit odd
            Ruling was that at showdown everyone in the hand must show

            Comment


              #7
              Strange. Unless he thought you were chip dumping to keep the bubble going. Unusual ruling.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                Ruling was that at showdown everyone in the hand must show
                That's completely incorrect and tbh the only justification for a dealer interfering like that is if there is suspected collusion between the two players that went to showdown, or 'soft play'

                Comment


                  #9
                  Spoke to TD Luca Vivaldi about this and it's too do with chip dumping but he doesn't 100% agree with the rule but has to enforce it, basically said at the end of day if people really wanted to chip dump they could do it other ways.
                  "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    As far as I am aware, at showdown, all players at the table are entitled to see all hands that went to showdown (hence the reason you can see hands at showdown online).

                    HOWEVER, once the best hand is shown, and a hand is mucked, it is considered very bad etiquette to ask to see the person's hand (but technically within the rules).

                    There have been times at the table where people have done this and I have let them that it's bad etiquette to ask. You'd be surprised at how many people genuinely just don't realise it's bad etiquette.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                      Spoke to TD Luca Vivaldi about this and it's too do with chip dumping but he doesn't 100% agree with the rule but has to enforce it, basically said at the end of day if people really wanted to chip dump they could do it other ways.
                      I wonder was that applied to every showdown hand in the tourney.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                        Spoke to TD Luca Vivaldi about this and it's too do with chip dumping but he doesn't 100% agree with the rule but has to enforce it, basically said at the end of day if people really wanted to chip dump they could do it other ways.
                        I agree with this a million percent. Any rules that are there specifically there to 'prevent collusion' are usually retarded. If people really want to collude, they will. Having these stupid rules won't 'catch out' any genuine colluders.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post

                          HOWEVER, once the best hand is shown, and a hand is mucked, it is considered very bad etiquette to ask to see the person's hand (but technically within the rules).

                          There have been times at the table where people have done this and I have let them that it's bad etiquette to ask. You'd be surprised at how many people genuinely just don't realise it's bad etiquette.
                          It's a fantastic needling weapon though

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                            I wonder was that applied to every showdown hand in the tourney.
                            I highly doubt it was suppose to add that in my previous post.

                            Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
                            I agree with this a million percent. Any rules that are there specifically there to 'prevent collusion' are usually retarded. If people really want to collude, they will. Having these stupid rules won't 'catch out' any genuine colluders.
                            He is a fantastic TD and is pretty much spot on with his line of thinking.
                            "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                              It's a fantastic needling weapon though
                              Yeah its up there with the slowroll imo.
                              location green and yellow stretford end

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by premierstone View Post
                                That's completely incorrect and tbh the only justification for a dealer interfering like that is if there is suspected collusion between the two players that went to showdown, or 'soft play'
                                Even if it were collusion then it is still not up to the dealer but the floorperson. The dealer should be calling floor if they suspect cheating.

                                Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                                Spoke to TD Luca Vivaldi about this and it's too do with chip dumping but he doesn't 100% agree with the rule but has to enforce it, basically said at the end of day if people really wanted to chip dump they could do it other ways.
                                He's correct, the rule was originally intended to prevent cheating. but if players were cheating then they could simply make a small bet and fold and then noone has the right to see that cards.

                                In practice the rule is simply abused so that certain people can get free info. In cases where players are abusing this rule simply to get that info then I would not be turning the cards over.

                                From the tda rule:
                                asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused.
                                The current rule is if you are dealt in you can ask to see them at showdown. (it used to be any player at the table)

                                Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
                                I agree with this a million percent. Any rules that are there specifically there to 'prevent collusion' are usually retarded. If people really want to collude, they will. Having these stupid rules won't 'catch out' any genuine colluders.
                                Plus if you truly believe that someone is cheating then you need to tell the floorstaff, who should take action. This isnt 1860 players arent required to wrestle with cheats.


                                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                Ruling was that at showdown everyone in the hand must show
                                The may have misunderstood the rule regarding all in players, which is that in an all in situation all players must turn their cards over at showdown.

                                Could be an overzealous dealer who has read the rules but made a mistake in interpreting them

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Hi Ciaran,

                                  Just seeing this now. This happened at my Masters I take it.

                                  If so 100% incorrect ruling made as this is not a rule I use.

                                  I could be wrong when I say this and I will speak to Luca about it because he's normally on the ball. I guessing that he thought it was an all-in and call which in that case cards must be shown.

                                  Failing this he may have gotten confused with PS's rules as he came straight from EPT london.

                                  PS's showdown rule allows any player with a live hand at showndown can request to see all players cards.
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                                    #18
                                    Hi JP, its was The Masters. To clarify, Jamie Browne called a river shove & was shown trips. He goes to muck his cards & dealer says he must show. He doesnt want to & calls for ruling. Luca comes over & hand is explained and he again says Jamie must show. At no time did any player ask to see his cards. After hand we asked Luca & he says every hand at every showdown must be tabled to avoid collusion.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                      Hi JP, its was The Masters. To clarify, Jamie Browne called a river shove & was shown trips. He goes to muck his cards & dealer says he must show. He doesnt want to & calls for ruling. Luca comes over & hand is explained and he again says Jamie must show. At no time did any player ask to see his cards. After hand we asked Luca & he says every hand at every showdown must be tabled to avoid collusion.
                                      fwiw I've seen rules like this enforced before where the dealer exposes all hands still live at showdown (I've never seen it fully implemented across a festival though, usually just once off occurrences or just with specific dealers)
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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                        Hi JP, its was The Masters. To clarify, Jamie Browne called a river shove & was shown trips. He goes to muck his cards & dealer says he must show. He doesnt want to & calls for ruling. Luca comes over & hand is explained and he again says Jamie must show. At no time did any player ask to see his cards. After hand we asked Luca & he says every hand at every showdown must be tabled to avoid collusion.
                                        So it was an all-in and call?
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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                          So it was an all-in and call?
                                          Yes, the caller (who covered the all-in) didnt want to show after being shown the winning hand.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                            Yes, the caller (who covered the all-in) didnt want to show after being shown the winning hand.
                                            All players still live in the pot, even if the betting is after the river, even if there are 3 or more players, even if there are side pots must show their cards in an all in. Cannot fold.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                              So it was an all-in and call?
                                              just to clarify so, if guy shoves and gets called, all players must show. But if guy bets his whole stack bar one 25 chip, gets called, and shows his hand, the other guy can muck freely?

                                              And the reason for this rule is to prevent collusion? See what I mean about there being easy ways around getting detected for collusion!
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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                Strange. Unless he thought you were chip dumping to keep the bubble going. Unusual ruling.
                                                Is this cheating?
                                                The reason I ask is I had a situation where we were 4 handed on the bubble of a local tournament where there was a novice nit with a 1.5bb stack who shoved into my bb. I had a big chip lead and the other two stacks were in the 10bb region. I folded A8 face up and kept open shoving on the other two stacks 'till I had them crippled. I strategically kept the novice stack alive to my advantage but surely there is nowt wrong with that?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
                                                  just to clarify so, if guy shoves and gets called, all players must show. But if guy bets his whole stack bar one 25 chip, gets called, and shows his hand, the other guy can muck freely?

                                                  And the reason for this rule is to prevent collusion? See what I mean about there being easy ways around getting detected for collusion!
                                                  Players must turn over in an all in situation in a tournament game only. In cash you may fold. This is not an anti collusion rule.

                                                  The anti collusion rule is that any player may request to see a hand that has lost to a bet on the river. The rule is easily exploited hence why few modern floor people will insist on enforcing it and will disallow it should it be abused.

                                                  Two separate and different rules.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                    Is this cheating?
                                                    The reason I ask is I had a situation where we were 4 handed on the bubble of a local tournament where there was a novice nit with a 1.5bb stack who shoved into my bb. I had a big chip lead and the other two stacks were in the 10bb region. I folded A8 face up and kept open shoving on the other two stacks 'till I had them crippled. I strategically kept the novice stack alive to my advantage but surely there is nowt wrong with that?
                                                    Yes it's cheating. Tactically sound but against the rules.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                      Players must turn over in an all in situation in a tournament game only. In cash you may fold. This is not an anti collusion rule.

                                                      The anti collusion rule is that any player may request to see a hand that has lost to a bet on the river. The rule is easily exploited hence why few modern floor people will insist on enforcing it and will disallow it should it be abused.

                                                      Two separate and different rules.
                                                      OK, but my point still stands that if a player goes all-in and is called on the river, hands can't be mucked, but if a player goes all-in bar one 25 chip, and is called, a hand can be mucked. Doesn't seem consistent imo

                                                      Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                      Is this cheating?
                                                      The reason I ask is I had a situation where we were 4 handed on the bubble of a local tournament where there was a novice nit with a 1.5bb stack who shoved into my bb. I had a big chip lead and the other two stacks were in the 10bb region. I folded A8 face up and kept open shoving on the other two stacks 'till I had them crippled. I strategically kept the novice stack alive to my advantage but surely there is nowt wrong with that?
                                                      seems fine imo. It was discussed in another thread where someone folded AA pf and showed on the bubble, there was mixed opinions on that one
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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                        Yes it's cheating. Tactically sound but against the rules.
                                                        You seem to have an opinion on every post on this whole site!

                                                        How is that against the rules? It's not collusion seen as he's the only one in on it, i'd put it down as strategy. Just like you would try and play pots with weaker players and stay away from stronger players. Strategy.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Cos it's a discussion forum.

                                                          It is against the rules. It breaches the rule that players may not soft play. He is not the only one in on it there are others affected. He is choosing to play one hand softer against someone than he would someone else. Collusion doesn't always mean that both people are playing together.

                                                          If you have a vastly superior hand then you must play it so. Rules and tactics do not share the same bed. Sometimes the correct tactic to win will be against the rule.

                                                          Which is why floor people have the discretion to enforce a rule as they see fit. They are not obliged to rule to the written word.

                                                          You're asking if it's against the rules. It is.
                                                          If you're asking if it should be punished. That's up to the floor person.
                                                          If you're asking can it be ignored. Yes, he folds face down and no one is any wiser. If you're going to do something which may break rules for your own gain then at least try and do it discreetly.


                                                          Jam-Fly. The reason those rules seem inconsistent is because they are unrelated.
                                                          The all in must show rule is purely there for tournaments. 10 years ago this rule was not the norm because tournaments were not spectator events. Now they are this on their backs in all in has grown from that. It has nothing really to do with collusion. Although it can be said the knowledge that players will see the hands you are all in on will limit it

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                            Collusion doesn't always mean that both people are playing together.
                                                            It does actually http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/collusion

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                                                              Ha ha well played.

                                                              But its still soft play, which comes under the same rule. Players have to play each hand as hard as they can, and extract full value. dumping chips, or not calling a short stack simply to keep the bubble going is soft play.

                                                              Im not saying its bad tactics, just it is against the rules to do so. if he folded and didnt say a word then it wouldnt be an issue. By making a point of saying "I am folding this right now so I can get more chips off you later" he is blatantly breaking a rule just to needle everyone. fold it quietly and carry on hoovering chips then noone would ever have the cause to stop you.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                Ha ha well played.

                                                                But its still soft play, which comes under the same rule. Players have to play each hand as hard as they can, and extract full value. dumping chips, or not calling a short stack simply to keep the bubble going is soft play.

                                                                Im not saying its bad tactics, just it is against the rules to do so. if he folded and didnt say a word then it wouldnt be an issue. By making a point of saying "I am folding this right now so I can get more chips off you later" he is blatantly breaking a rule just to needle everyone. fold it quietly and carry on hoovering chips then noone would ever have the cause to stop you.
                                                                What is the actual rule to say you have to play the same against all players?

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Fidpa rules
                                                                  RULE 7 POKER ETIQUETTE
                                                                  7-1.
                                                                  To maintain the integrity and fairness of the tournament and to provide a player friendly environment, the following actions are considered improper and unsportsmanlike behavior. Tournament Directors and Floor People will issue penalties for the following etiquette violations.
                                                                  i)
                                                                  Any form of soft play, including verbally or mutually agreeing to check a hand down, when a third player is all-in.
                                                                  (TDA RULE #40) PENALTIES AND DISQUALIFICATIONS- A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of soft play, abuse, or disruptive behavior. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings and “missed hand” penalties. Except for a one-hand penalty, missed hand penalties will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. For the period of the penalty, the offender shall remain away from the table but will continue to be dealt in. Tournament staff can assess a one-hand penalty, one-, two-, three-, or four-round penalties or disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his or her chips removed from play. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties.
                                                                  There are more definitions available

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                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                    Fidpa rules





                                                                    There are more definitions available
                                                                    There's a difference between softplay and strategically choosing who to play pots with though.

                                                                    edit: just realized i've gone off topic, sorry dice
                                                                    Last edited by tglynn; 02-04-13, 09:48.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                                                                      There's a difference between softplay and strategically choosing who to play pots with though.

                                                                      edit: just realized i've gone off topic, sorry dice
                                                                      By not eliminating a player when you have the opportunity to you are soft playing. This is not permitted and can be punished.

                                                                      Tactically as an individual you may be thinking i'm in a good spot to hoover chips here. In reality you are allowing a player to remain in the tournament when you have an obligation to knock people out.

                                                                      Its hard to justify letting someone off just so you can get more chips later without being tarred with a brush of "why did that guy just fold aces heads up on the bubble". How do we know you haven't swapped % with that player?

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        I honestly don't see anything wrong with my actions. I didn't cheat she raised my blind and I folded, maybe face up was wrong but I also made the other two aware I was shoving blind on them every hand. She had blinded to 1.5 bigs so I didn't see her as a threat and the other two were decent players.
                                                                        I felt pressing my advantage while keeping her alive gave me the best chance of winning. I didn't feel I had done anything underhand and in fact the lads one of whom posts here said he nearly fell off the chair when I folded the A8 but then congratulated me on the win when he realized what I was doing.

                                                                        Sorry Ciaran for taking your initial thread off topic. If the mods wish to separate this topic please do. I just got caught unaware by Denny Crane's comment.
                                                                        Last edited by Sirtoyou; 02-04-13, 20:06.

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                                          I honestly don't see anything wrong with my actions. I didn't cheat she raised my blind and I folded, maybe face up was wrong but I also made the other two aware I was shoving blind on them every hand. She had blinded to 1.5 bigs so I didn't see her as a threat and the other two were decent players.
                                                                          I felt pressing my advantage while keeping her alive gave me the best chance of winning. I didn't feel I had done anything underhand and in fact the lads one of whom posts here said he nearly fell off the chair when I folded the A8 but then congratulated me on the win when he realized what I was doing.

                                                                          Sorry Ciaran for taking your initial thread off topic. If the mods wish to separate this topic please do. I just got caught unaware by Denny Crane's comment.

                                                                          Hi Croc,
                                                                          Tactically, what you did in the hand is excellent play, and it shows your thinking prowess at the table. What I dont agree with is you showing everyone what you were doing, because I think ethically, its wrong not to knock a player out when you have the hand to do it.
                                                                          Not showing your hand avoids that problem. All that happens is people are scratching their heads as to why you didnt call with any 2 cards. All imho of course.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                                            I honestly don't see anything wrong with my actions. I didn't cheat she raised my blind and I folded, maybe face up was wrong but I also made the other two aware I was shoving blind on them every hand. She had blinded to 1.5 bigs so I didn't see her as a threat and the other two were decent players.
                                                                            I felt pressing my advantage while keeping her alive gave me the best chance of winning. I didn't feel I had done anything underhand and in fact the lads one of whom posts here said he nearly fell off the chair when I folded the A8 but then congratulated me on the win when he realized what I was doing.

                                                                            Sorry Ciaran for taking your initial thread off topic. If the mods wish to separate this topic please do. I just got caught unaware by Denny Crane's comment.
                                                                            Your play is completely fine and is a standard-ish discussion talked about by STTers as well as MTTers. General gist is it lets the big stack or an aggressive player bully the table as players are either afraid to bubble or don't want to risk their stack before the shorty bubbles.

                                                                            The guy above who said otherwise has 0 clue what he's talking about.
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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                                              I honestly don't see anything wrong with my actions. I didn't cheat she raised my blind and I folded, maybe face up was wrong but I also made the other two aware I was shoving blind on them every hand. She had blinded to 1.5 bigs so I didn't see her as a threat and the other two were decent players.
                                                                              I felt pressing my advantage while keeping her alive gave me the best chance of winning. I didn't feel I had done anything underhand and in fact the lads one of whom posts here said he nearly fell off the chair when I folded the A8 but then congratulated me on the win when he realized what I was doing.

                                                                              Sorry Ciaran for taking your initial thread off topic. If the mods wish to separate this topic please do. I just got caught unaware by Denny Crane's comment.
                                                                              Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                              Hi Croc,
                                                                              Tactically, what you did in the hand is excellent play, and it shows your thinking prowess at the table. What I dont agree with is you showing everyone what you were doing, because I think ethically, its wrong not to knock a player out when you have the hand to do it.
                                                                              Not showing your hand avoids that problem. All that happens is people are scratching their heads as to why you didnt call with any 2 cards. All imho of course.
                                                                              Connie has this spot on.
                                                                              Tactically the right play, but it is not strictly within the rules of what you should be doing. Should you try to take advantage of of a profitable position? Probably, You shouldn't draw attention to it tho.

                                                                              You would, at the most, get a slap on the wrist for the action from a knowledgeable floorman and told you should be trying to eliminate people.
                                                                              You wouldnt get an immediate penalty for doing this, only if you kept doing it and even then it would be minor to start with.
                                                                              But, like I said, if you fold face down no one is wise to your action and you can continue to bully the table indefinitely.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Personally think it's perfectly fine and showing your cards is fine too. I don't think it's "wrong" or any of this, you play by your strategy to win. He is trying to eliminate people, and has chosen a perfectly good reason to play how he did, if I was on the floor and heard the reason from him I wouldn't have any problem with it at all.
                                                                                Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 03-04-13, 09:52.

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                  Personally think it's perfectly fine and showing your cards is fine too. I don't think it's "wrong" or any of this, you play by your strategy to win. He is trying to eliminate people, and has chosen a perfectly good reason to play how he did, if I was on the floor and heard the reason from him I wouldn't have any problem with it at all.
                                                                                  If I was floor I would have to consider the situation.

                                                                                  Is he likely to do this? Who is the player he did it against? is there a relationship between them?
                                                                                  How big were the bets involved?
                                                                                  A8 is not a massive hand by any means, so I would need to consider the pot size and the size of the stacks vs blinds.
                                                                                  I would also be questioning why he felt the need to show here. Is that a needle? what does he gain from showing? short stacks are probably going to start playing back at him, forcing him to call or fold bigger hands.
                                                                                  All in all i would guess I would ask him to not play soft in future that players should be taking chances to knock each other out, and hope that he has the sense to keep his cards face down.

                                                                                  If the player persisted in repeating the actions, refusing to eliminate players and showing the play then I would begin to enforce penalties. If players do not try to eliminate people here then the tournament is unnecessarily prolonged and eventually the blinds would keep climbing affecting the rest of the tourney.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Well things like that have to be considered to avoid collusion, but as it would be ascertained that he was not colluding then i would think it is fine. Maybe showing his cards is dubious needling but that is a different matter. He was also shoving blind into the other players, which is not conducive to it lasting longer. Why would he be asked to not play soft in future, is this playing soft? I think it's a valid strategy to put yourself in a better position to win, therefore not playing soft at all.

                                                                                    Should he be forced to call here for .5bb with any 2 cards, or is it only the good ones, how good, A8?
                                                                                    Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 03-04-13, 11:34.

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Is soft play not really defined as 'playing your hand differently against 1 player than you would against an other'. In this case, Sirtoyou is playing his hand the same way no matter what player is in the seat. I do agree that showing the hand wasn't the best idea in the world, and that even folding face down would raise eyebrows. Found this similar topic in the Hendon Mob. Granted the player didn't show, but it's close enough and could definetly have been punished based on the TD involved

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                        Well things like that have to be considered to avoid collusion, but as it would be ascertained that he was not colluding then i would think it is fine. Maybe showing his cards is dubious needling but that is a different matter. He was also shoving blind into the other players, which is not conducive to it lasting longer. Why would he be asked to not play soft in future, is this playing soft? I think it's a valid strategy to put yourself in a better position to win, therefore not playing soft at all.

                                                                                        Should he be forced to call here for .5bb with any 2 cards, or is it only the good ones, how good, A8?
                                                                                        I think i had this discussion on another thread but,
                                                                                        Depending on the size of the stacks, and the quality of the hand.
                                                                                        Someone folding AA to a 10 blind shove heads up is a nono.
                                                                                        Someone folding 72o to a .5 blind shove is a nono.

                                                                                        Both are going to arouse suspicion, and both may carry penalties.
                                                                                        almost anything else in between is going to be judged on the situation as a whole.

                                                                                        The flexibility of the soft play is, of course, going to change with the situation. A8 is often a valid fold, so no it's not automatic to assume that's soft play (unless the player states 'i am folding this so i don't knock you out') but if he is a huge chip leader and the short stack only has a couple of blinds then it would have to be considered.

                                                                                        Since the object of the tournament is to eliminate players then not doing so when presented with a valid opportunity is suspicious.

                                                                                        Not playing soft is within the expectations of the game, part of tournament play is to expect players to eliminate each other.

                                                                                        as a player here it would be more about not raising suspicion than anything else. If you're going to try stuff like this then you need to be positive you can't be accused of keeping a player in because of any other reason.

                                                                                        Im not saying don't do it. I would even do it myself, if the opportunity ever arose for me to fold a winner so I can keep bullying. But Im not going to do it where I can be disqualified for cheating, and can't prove otherwise, either by pointing it out myself, being on camera or on-line.

                                                                                        These type of actions are risky because once someone claims you are colluding or soft playing then you're going to struggle to prove otherwise. and if the floorman has no other reason to believe your story you'll risk a DQ.


                                                                                        And "forced to call", is also not really going to happen. I wouldn't really ever be forcing someone to call. If they folded the .5 BB bet then its likely they would warned for soft playing or possibly be removed for a few rounds of the table if i felt it was required. but I wouldn't be forcing someone to call a bet in that situation.

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Thanks for that link, ive been looking for it. The verdict they have here is one of their best.

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                            Is soft play not really defined as 'playing your hand differently against 1 player than you would against an other'. In this case, Sirtoyou is playing his hand the same way no matter what player is in the seat. I do agree that showing the hand wasn't the best idea in the world, and that even folding face down would raise eyebrows. Found this similar topic in the Hendon Mob. Granted the player didn't show, but it's close enough and could definetly have been punished based on the TD involved

                                                                                            http://www.thehendonmob.com/tourname...y_or_must_call
                                                                                            Indeed, i don't think this case falls under spoft play but I think the one on Hb does. Known friend, no thought process aboput how it helps him win the tournament etc. That sounds more like a case of helping a friend. These things can be very hard to judge, how does a TD know the relationship between players? On questioning the player on HB and sirtoyou here it would become evident that they folded for two different reasons and that could be acted upon. The difference is that it might be shown that the player on HB didn’t act in his own self interest, sirtoyou had reasoning to show that he was imo. Some posts there on HB say he couldn't be acting in his own interest due to odds in the hand, that is not the only way to judge self-interest. I would leave it down to the players description of why he did what he did. it's a common enough occurrence that people fold for even one chip more from what I've read, so I think it should be discussed more.


                                                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                            I think i had this discussion on another thread but,
                                                                                            Depending on the size of the stacks, and the quality of the hand.
                                                                                            Someone folding AA to a 10 blind shove heads up is a nono.
                                                                                            Someone folding 72o to a .5 blind shove is a nono.

                                                                                            Both are going to arouse suspicion, and both may carry penalties.
                                                                                            almost anything else in between is going to be judged on the situation as a whole.

                                                                                            The flexibility of the soft play is, of course, going to change with the situation. A8 is often a valid fold, so no it's not automatic to assume that's soft play (unless the player states 'i am folding this so i don't knock you out') but if he is a huge chip leader and the short stack only has a couple of blinds then it would have to be considered.

                                                                                            Since the object of the tournament is to eliminate players then not doing so when presented with a valid opportunity is suspicious.

                                                                                            Not playing soft is within the expectations of the game, part of tournament play is to expect players to eliminate each other.

                                                                                            as a player here it would be more about not raising suspicion than anything else. If you're going to try stuff like this then you need to be positive you can't be accused of keeping a player in because of any other reason.

                                                                                            Im not saying don't do it. I would even do it myself, if the opportunity ever arose for me to fold a winner so I can keep bullying. But Im not going to do it where I can be disqualified for cheating, and can't prove otherwise, either by pointing it out myself, being on camera or on-line.

                                                                                            These type of actions are risky because once someone claims you are colluding or soft playing then you're going to struggle to prove otherwise. and if the floorman has no other reason to believe your story you'll risk a DQ.


                                                                                            And "forced to call", is also not really going to happen. I wouldn't really ever be forcing someone to call. If they folded the .5 BB bet then its likely they would warned for soft playing or possibly be removed for a few rounds of the table if i felt it was required. but I wouldn't be forcing someone to call a bet in that situation.
                                                                                            On HB there somebody did suggest a forced calling which is ridiculous imo.
                                                                                            The part that I disagree with in these is "the object of the tournament is to eliminate players", the object is to win the tournament and I think there are more complex ways to do this than eliminating a player in one hand based on odds of calling, meta-game. If he feels comfortable getting an advantage shorthanded by doing this it is a good move. Obviously you can't take the piss and be holding up play or doing this earlier in the tournament. If there was risk you would get a straight DQ or harsh penalty it would be avoided all right, but I don't think it should be and would even try it myself (I never have). I feel you would need to get it across to the TD why you think softplay is wrong and why you think this was not softplay, that anybody worth their salt would analyze the situation as it arises and take your reasoning into account.

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                              Indeed, i don't think this case falls under spoft play but I think the one on Hb does. Known friend, no thought process aboput how it helps him win the tournament etc. That sounds more like a case of helping a friend. These things can be very hard to judge, how does a TD know the relationship between players? On questioning the player on HB and sirtoyou here it would become evident that they folded for two different reasons and that could be acted upon. The difference is that it might be shown that the player on HB didn’t act in his own self interest, sirtoyou had reasoning to show that he was imo. Some posts there on HB say he couldn't be acting in his own interest due to odds in the hand, that is not the only way to judge self-interest. I would leave it down to the players description of why he did what he did. it's a common enough occurrence that people fold for even one chip more from what I've read, so I think it should be discussed more.



                                                                                              On HB there somebody did suggest a forced calling which is ridiculous imo.
                                                                                              The part that I disagree with in these is "the object of the tournament is to eliminate players", the object is to win the tournament and I think there are more complex ways to do this than eliminating a player in one hand based on odds of calling, meta-game. If he feels comfortable getting an advantage shorthanded by doing this it is a good move. Obviously you can't take the piss and be holding up play or doing this earlier in the tournament. If there was risk you would get a straight DQ or harsh penalty it would be avoided all right, but I don't think it should be and would even try it myself (I never have). I feel you would need to get it across to the TD why you think softplay is wrong and why you think this was not softplay, that anybody worth their salt would analyze the situation as it arises and take your reasoning into account.
                                                                                              The difference between the two situations, HB and sirtoyou is that of motivation. as you say we cannot know the relationship between player, we also cannot know the motivation of a players action, we can only judge it by how it appears. In both it appears that the chip lead has for some reason or other decided that he does not want that player knocked out at this time.
                                                                                              We cannot prove either way (at a poker table mid game) if he was passing chips or keeping the bubble going.
                                                                                              The only thing we know is that player had a good chance of being eliminated and progressing the game and the chance was passed upon.


                                                                                              The part that I disagree with in these is "the object of the tournament is to eliminate players", the object is to win the tournament
                                                                                              The object is not to win the tournament, that is your objective sure, but it is not the purpose of the tournament. the sole object of the tournament is that all players are eliminated leaving one.

                                                                                              Players need to play according to that goal.

                                                                                              If players can be seen in undisputed situations to be avoiding this then they are not playing within the intentions of poker to take chips off your opponents and, in the case of knockout tournaments, to knock players out. Regardless of motive they are then breaching the rules.

                                                                                              The only real debate is the definition of an undisputed situation. This is where judgement by the floor will matter. Like I said above. folding a .5 BB raise with any cards on one ends and folding a big raise with strong cards on the other. In between those extremes then each case will be different.
                                                                                              Whether or not it is tactically sound those 2 examples (or similar) would be breaking the expectations of the game.

                                                                                              Floor people cannot really make rulings by game tactics, only by the rules. If the tactic breaks the rules then it should be punished.

                                                                                              The severity of the punishment would be from a 'now now lads play fair' to a few rounds off the table.

                                                                                              You also have to think from the point of view of the player who does get bubbled. Because the chip leader wasn't playing strictly within the game intention and knocked someone out then it will be another person who goes home broke. That person is not going to be thinking 'well its ok cos tactically he has more chips for the end game' he is going to be pissed that the short stack was let off.

                                                                                              You might say well its fine cos someone will have to be the bubble, its just tough get over it, we all lose sometimes etc. But in this situation his loss is artificially created because the rules were bent. It woulnd't (shouldnt) have happened like that. the cards should have decided his fate.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                First off my reasons for showing the A8 at the time were in no way a needle to the two lads with the 10bb stacks in fact quite the opposite. PlayUpPompey was one and his friend Remy was the other, both good players but probably still learning and improving at the time.

                                                                                                We had a good discussion after and they had nothing but praise for the way I played the bubble. I would be friendly with both and my showing the A8 and making them aware I was shoving blind on theirs stacks was partly to show them at the time there was more than one way to skin a cat, ie not having to wait 'til heads up to win a tournament, it could effectively be done on the bubble play.

                                                                                                The player I was keeping in was probably oblivious to the dynamics of the situation and a complete novice. Fwiw I still took her out and she bubbled but not before I decimated what was left of the lads stacks.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                                                                                                  First off my reasons for showing the A8 at the time were in no way a needle to the two lads with the 10bb stacks in fact quite the opposite.
                                                                                                  I'm not criticizing your play, nor condemning your motives. It is a good strategy, no doubt. and I have no problem believing that you weren't up to no good.
                                                                                                  You asked was it allowed, I'm just letting you know it strictly isn't.
                                                                                                  If you read the link that Flushdraw gave then you can see its been discussed before (those hendon mob articles are 10 odd years old now so it's not a new situation). I know its not exact to your example, but it can be perceived in the same way.
                                                                                                  You would have to think from an observer as to whether or not you should do it and how it looks. People would be expecting you to knock someone out there and you didn't, initially it is suspect. Not everyone is going to accept your reasoning. The only thing I would say in future if you get the chance at a similar position is to quietly fold and continue bullying.

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