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Weird AQ hand deep in a tourney

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    Weird AQ hand deep in a tourney

    Down to 27 in the 42k gtd on Full tilt

    8.7k for 1st

    Villain in this hand is playing 28/24 with a 12% 3bet pre. He 3-bets his co and btn alot! iv only seen him show down one hand where he 3-bet pre w/J10s and had to get it in because of opponents shallow stack
    iv been at his table for a good while and my image is fairly loose. I've been 3 betting raisers a lot anywhere near the button and generally havent been called.
    Before this hand im coming 6th in chips and villain has me covered.

    27 left blinds 2000/4000

    Hero(370k) raises 10000 from mp a/AQ
    Villain(430k) 3-bets to 28500 from the co
    Hero calls


    pot 65k

    Flop As Kh 5d

    Hero checks villain bets 51k hero calls

    Turn 6d

    Hero checks villain bets 95k hero shoves

    How do ppl like the shove here?
    "Think of what your opponent wants you to do, and then do the opposite"

    #2
    Shove is nasty here as it always folds hands you beat and gets a call from hands beating you.

    Bet the flop.

    As played I prob call turn and river vs this guy.
    Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

    Comment


      #3
      Dont like donking the flop at all.
      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

      Comment


        #4
        Check call or Check fold. I am more likely to check call down given his stats

        Comment


          #5
          check-shovalovadingdong on the flop

          Comment


            #6
            This seems like a really standard call down to me. I have no idea why you would do anything else. I think raising at any point would be bad too.
            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

            Comment


              #7
              Just keep calling imo.

              Comment


                #8
                Yeah I just call down too.

                Comment


                  #9
                  If this guy is 3betting light IP, does anyone like a 4bet pre in this spot?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                    If this guy is 3betting light IP, does anyone like a 4bet pre in this spot?
                    yeah, though this kind of player against this kind of hero will shove a lot

                    I also like OP's line

                    re the simply calling all the way line, is there any argument for avoiding one street of suck outs by repushing turn?

                    i mean if he does end up sucking out with what was a folding one pair hand on the turn are we not sick

                    what I'm really asking is if there is an argument for losing one street of value by insuring against losing the hand altogether, i'm pretty sure that's bad poker but at this stage of decent MTT we don't want to let the deck fuck us too much?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                      If this guy is 3betting light IP, does anyone like a 4bet pre in this spot?
                      I think 90bb is a little too much to get in when you raise from MP.

                      Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                      yeah, though this kind of player against this kind of hero will shove a lot

                      I also like OP's line

                      re the simply calling all the way line, is there any argument for avoiding one street of suck outs by repushing turn?

                      i mean if he does end up sucking out with what was a folding one pair hand on the turn are we not sick

                      what I'm really asking is if there is an argument for losing one street of value by insuring against losing the hand altogether, i'm pretty sure that's bad poker but at this stage of decent MTT we don't want to let the deck fuck us too much?
                      Him shoving would be the point of 4betting. We 4b to call the shove if we think 4betting is best.

                      Yeah, that would be bad poker. You would cost yourself huge amounts of money by following that thinking. You seem to understand that its bad poker, but want to do it anyway ? Like if you thought he would call a turn shove with any ace then fire away, but thats not really the case. Remember that this is 90bb deep vs what sounds like a somewhat competent opponent.
                      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                        You seem to understand that its bad poker, but want to do it anyway ?
                        well I want to understand the arguments against doing it.

                        is it that if you are a 51% favourite in a hand you should play it to the river? I just have a problem with that in large MTTs, I think you're much better off trying to play less hands and trying to close hands out than extracting every last inch of value out of every hand, as more of your stack will be at risk more often, making it harder to survive to win

                        and are we losing any value against hands we beat by shoving? I mean, if he's going to fold the turn to us is he going to fire the river with the same holding? if not then we lose nothing and we take out all the times he dogs us with K10 or some such.

                        and if he bets the river having dogged us we are presumably calling so we still lose playing call call

                        but I presume the point is that if you line up all the hands he may have here and push against them, we end up with more chips at the end where we just call each street

                        / end think outloud / thread derail

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I think the shove on turn is just horrible, while he is playing quite aggressive when he bets the turn I think its either a hand we have completely crushed or where we're in deep trouble. Yes he's playing aggressive, but how often is he double barreling hands like K10 and AJ/A10.. why would he want to build a big pot with such a marginal holding with 3 tables to go.

                          I think you have to make your mind up on the turn if you have the best hand or not, you've already stated he's 3 betting light so he may be double barreling Q10s or J10s. Call and hope he spews off on the river because theres too much in the middle to give up on. Against the hands in his range that he would bet the turn with that you beat, you've over 90% equity. The worst case scenario is he has gut shot and a diamond draw.
                          Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Anyone like a 4-bet fold preflop against this particular villian?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                              Anyone like a 4-bet fold preflop against this particular villian?
                              No. Why would you do that? Just use A2 or something.
                              Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                well I want to understand the arguments against doing it.

                                is it that if you are a 51% favourite in a hand you should play it to the river? I just have a problem with that in large MTTs, I think you're much better off trying to play less hands and trying to close hands out than extracting every last inch of value out of every hand, as more of your stack will be at risk more often, making it harder to survive to win

                                and are we losing any value against hands we beat by shoving? I mean, if he's going to fold the turn to us is he going to fire the river with the same holding? if not then we lose nothing and we take out all the times he dogs us with K10 or some such.

                                and if he bets the river having dogged us we are presumably calling so we still lose playing call call

                                but I presume the point is that if you line up all the hands he may have here and push against them, we end up with more chips at the end where we just call each street

                                / end think outloud / thread derail
                                If you shove you fold out his bluffs, but you only really get called by a better hand unless you have a weird dynamic going. So you pretty much get your entire stack in against better hands. At the very best his bluffs have about 28% against you, but imo its far far more likely they have something like 10%. Thats nothing to be scared of.

                                If you call, and call river, he keeps all his bluffs in his range, so you can actually get your stack in good a good bit of the time.

                                While you do have a point in that going to showdown too much kills you in terms of ICM, poker is really a game of maximising your equity, rather than maximising the amount of times you win a hand. I could try win every hand if I want to, but I would cost myself immense amounts of money. There is absolutely nothing wrong with calling people down sometimes, and it is very often the best line.
                                Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                  Anyone like a 4-bet fold preflop against this particular villian?
                                  Actually I don't hate folding to the 3b pre. OOP when we're going to miss 2/3 of the time sucks when we'll often have the best hand post flop but have to fold. When we hit - like we have - our hand is turned face up. But once we hit I can't see how we can ever fold against him. He can have turned a ton of fds, openenders,gutshots and even pure air and he thinks he can make you fold your Ax by the river. As TG and others say shoving turn is bad as you are WA/WB and if WA can only make more money by exploiting his (apparent) leak of bluffing too much. If you are WB well that sucks but what can you do - he might check back a T or J or diamond river behind if he gets afraid of the board or something. Well probably not - you're generally still getting stacked but leave him the chance to bluff!

                                  Fwiw 51k into 65k in a 3b pot on the AK5r flop seems like overkill to me with AK,KK,AA and I'd expect to be good here alot unless he's binked with K5s or something.

                                  I'm leaning a bit towards 4b getting it in pre - fk him and his 12% 3b. I exit tournaments early

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                    No. Why would you do that? Just use A2 or something.
                                    To win a nice pot if he folds or get away from it if this time he has a monster. Usually a guy like that doesn't 5 bet light unless there is a lot of history etc. because he can win more chips by raising and 3 betting than risking being called by a monster himself.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      If hero 4bets he will 4b to ~70k. Then if villain shoves hero is getting ~1.5-1 on a call.
                                      We have 38% v top 5% of hands. If our AQ is suited we have 41%. Plus he might be just crazy enough to ship 78s or 33. We may even be ahead of his range and be making a horrible fold. Your assumption that he will only shove monsters(say QQ+,AK) is not necessarily correct - if it were we could 4b them with any hand we open with and rake in the profits

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        In hindsight a calldown is prob better. Its just i felt given my hand was so under-repped at that point i felt he could spaz and call me light with ajs,a10s,a9s,a8s and any xx flush draws. Ak aa and kk are a v.thin part of his range imo
                                        "Think of what your opponent wants you to do, and then do the opposite"

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                                          If hero 4bets he will 4b to ~70k. Then if villain shoves hero is getting ~1.5-1 on a call.
                                          We have 38% v top 5% of hands. If our AQ is suited we have 41%. Plus he might be just crazy enough to ship 78s or 33. We may even be ahead of his range and be making a horrible fold. Your assumption that he will only shove monsters(say QQ+,AK) is not necessarily correct - if it were we could 4b them with any hand we open with and rake in the profits
                                          I didn't do the calculations so I won't argue about the odds, I would go with my read so I was probably wrong to say I would 4bet fold but tbh I wouldn't 4bet unless I knew what his tendencies were first. If he had folded to a lot of 4 bets I would probably fold to his 5 bet.
                                          The part of your post in bold is totally ridiculous as no player in the world would fold if they were being 4 bet by the same player every time they 3bet, regardless of their cards, so it was pointless to put it in as an example.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                            I didn't do the calculations so I won't argue about the odds, I would go with my read so I was probably wrong to say I would 4bet fold but tbh I wouldn't 4bet unless I knew what his tendencies were first. If he had folded to a lot of 4 bets I would probably fold to his 5 bet.
                                            The part of your post in bold is totally ridiculous as no player in the world would fold if they were being 4 bet by the same player every time they 3bet, regardless of their cards, so it was pointless to put it in as an example.
                                            ridiculous/pointless is a bit strong!

                                            They player can wait for a monster to 5b jam / widen his 5b value jamming range / start 5b jamming as a bluff with hands like 8Ts / start calling 4bets/ continue to fold to your 4bs / stop 3betting you altogether or whatever. How do we know what his counter strategy is to being 4b?
                                            "I would go with my read" translates to me as - I wouldn't ship worse than AQ here so I assume he wouldn't either so now I fold despite the odds i have created with my 4bet.

                                            (translation could be off)

                                            And its a tournament. Maybe at best hero has 200 hands with villain - maybe less than 50. Do you really think he has a decent 3b/4b/5b history built up that he could say hmmm he's folding to alot of 4bets so I can happily 4b and fold to his shove here.

                                            pfft ridiculous indeed!


                                            Edit : @ Portoftheyokes seeing as its a tourney hand you should prob have posted it in the tourney section. maybe get more relevant replies?
                                            Last edited by BobSloane; 26-07-10, 18:18.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I think raising to 2.5BB when you are 90bb deep is not enough, I dont play tournament much though. When he 3bets if we call we are oop, folding seems too weak given reads. Id be tempted to 4bet, we prob dont get it in good too often, but he should fold lots and we pick up a nice pot and maybe discourage him from 3betting as well. Not sure whether 4bet small and call or 4bet jamming is better, whichever is more likely to discourage him from getting it in with something like 77.

                                              If you flat the 3bet you need to have a plan involving making moves on certain flops

                                              I think calling down is the only way to play it on that board. Shoving turn looks really strong, if you think he'll call light I prefer raising flop to raising turn

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