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    KQ oop on K-high flop

    I open in MP w KQcc to 1400 at 300-600/75. C/O calls behind me, heads-up to flop.
    I'm playing 31k, villain covers.


    Flop: KdJs7s (4,300)

    I bet 2000
    CO makes it 5500



    ????
    Opinions on what to do here. I think a case can be made for numerous options here



    Hero calls

    Turn: Th (15,300)

    Hero checks
    CO bets 8k


    ????
    Opinions on how to proceed from here



    Hero calls

    River: Ks (31,300)

    Hero checks
    CO shoves all-in
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    #2
    Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
    I open in MP w KQcc to 1400 at 300-600/75. C/O calls behind me, heads-up to flop.
    I'm playing 31k, villain covers.


    Flop: KdJs7s (4,300)

    I bet 2000
    CO makes it 5500



    ????
    Opinions on what to do here. I think a case can be made for numerous options here



    Hero calls

    Turn: Th (15,300)

    Hero checks
    CO bets 8k


    ????
    Opinions on how to proceed from here



    Hero calls

    River: Ks (31,300)

    Hero checks
    CO shoves all-in
    I think your flop play is fine anyway I definitely bet call the flop however on the turn I really hate bet calling, you pretty much leave yourself in no man's land tbh, I probably check fold any turn that isn't a 10 king or queen, maybe I wouldn't fold if a 7 came but most cases I would, the board is so draw heavy and u have so much equity I really think I check shove the turn, however as played I fold, I think u only beat maybe Q10 I guess?? Interesting hand though

    Comment


      #3
      I think you need to give a bit of info on the villain (if you have any) to make any advice worthwhile. Against some calling down is fine while against others folding the flop is the best play.

      Against an unknown I prob let it go on the river

      Against a good reg its a perfect board to raise the flop and triple barrel so Id be more inclined to call

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
        I think you need to give a bit of info on the villain (if you have any) to make any advice worthwhile. Against some calling down is fine while against others folding the flop is the best play.

        Against an unknown I prob let it go on the river

        Against a good reg its a perfect board to raise the flop and triple barrel so Id be more inclined to call
        sorry forgot to give info on villain.

        First time playing with villain, definitely competent. Played one hand where I 4bet shoved 27BBs with AJ and ran into his KK and got lucky. Hasn't been overly loose or tight but generally has had it when it's gotten to showdown. Made a thin value bet on river one hand. Not inconceivable that he's triple barreling, but wouldn't say it's all that likely. Definitely capable of playing a draw aggressively.
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        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
          I open in MP w KQcc to 1400 at 300-600/75. C/O calls behind me, heads-up to flop.
          I'm playing 31k, villain covers.


          Flop: KdJs7s (4,300)

          I bet 2000
          CO makes it 5500



          ????
          Opinions on what to do here. I think a case can be made for numerous options here



          Hero calls

          Turn: Th (15,300)

          Hero checks
          CO bets 8k


          ????
          Opinions on how to proceed from here



          Hero calls

          River: Ks (31,300)

          Hero checks
          CO shoves all-in
          I'd def flat flop raise as well for sure. He could easily be bluff raising a lot here if he thinks you're capable of opening wide from mp.

          Villains bet sizing on the turn gives off the image that he's fairly competent and setting himself up for a river shove so when he bets 8k on the turn i'td be hard find a hand that you can still be ahead against vs 2 barrells. +You're going to hate life on most rivers when he bets. still dont hate the call considering we still have outs and its a good card for him to d-barrel at but i'd be leaning towards a fold.

          His range on the river is weighed heavily towards value hands imo. your hand looks fairly face up and if he's competent he shouldn't really be bluffing on the river if he thinks you're in c-call mode. + obv he could have binked with axss xxss connectors as well that he'd be shoving with.
          "Think of what your opponent wants you to do, and then do the opposite"

          Comment


            #6
            I fold flop with info on villain

            Comment


              #7
              Only hand that makes sense if he was genuine with the strength on all 3 streets is pocket 7s or kj. What did u actually think he had lad? Keep the faith

              Comment


                #8
                I think calling on the turn is bad here.

                I think a fold or an all in would b better.

                Tough hand oop though.
                If you're not in, you can't win

                Comment


                  #9
                  Turn is a fold. Pretty easy fold tbh.

                  River changes nothing, we still only beat a bluff. This is always like 77 or JJ.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                    Turn is a fold. Pretty easy fold tbh.

                    River changes nothing, we still only beat a bluff. This is always like 77 or JJ.
                    Definitely wouldn't have JJ in his range I don't think given the above info, if a competent player has seen u get it in pre as light as AJ then he would definitely want to play for stacks wit JJ

                    In my mind u are only losing on the flop to 77 and KJ, however I don't believe the raise on the flop contains many bluffs more likely the two above hands and some str8 and flush combo draws. So maybe playing for stacks on the flop isn't so bad but seems a little high variance.

                    I definitely hate check calling the turn, for definite it's a fold or shove turn( if u get that far) and that depends on whether u think ur good or not cos he's never folding.

                    With the info u gave it is really tough and I am more inclined to fold the more I thought about it, but getting to the river calling is the worst line imo

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Pretty horrible decisions here, tough playing KQ oop.
                      I doubt he's got an airball so folding the flop is ok.
                      On the offsuit 10 turn I deffo check it, either cf or c jam, don't really see the point in cc unless u think there's a strong poss of him having Q10 or QJ (or air) in which case you have to call on the river.

                      Also I think his entire range jams that river once u check in front so his bet means nothing.
                      Last edited by Arazi; 03-09-12, 20:27.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                        Pretty horrible decisions here, tough playing KQ oop.
                        I doubt he's got an airball so folding the flop is ok.
                        On the offsuit 10 turn I deffo check it, either cf or c jam, don't really see the point in cc unless u think there's a strong poss of him having Q10 or QJ (or air) in which case you have to call on the river.

                        Also I think his entire range jams that river once u check in front so his bet means nothing.
                        Pretty much the exact analysis given at the table with a few "you're brutal" comments thrown in.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                          Pretty much the exact analysis given at the table with a few "you're brutal" comments thrown in.
                          For clarity I didn't mean Jamflys decisions were horrible (I might think they are thou), I meant that we had horrible decisions to make.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            thanks for replies everyone.

                            I think folding on the flop is actually okay. Seems like way too strong a hand to fold but whatever happens, you're going to have a tough decision on future streets. Without going into too much detail, it's similar to folding ace rag in the BB to a raise from MP/LP, you're ahead of their range, but the hand mightn't be very profitable to continue in.

                            On the turn, I think you just have to fold. I think the lack of good options on the turn actually gives more weight to folding the flop. There ARE hands in villain's range that you beat, but his range also contains sets a lot of the time. The only thing that weighs his range more towards draws than sets, is that I think he 3-bets jacks and kings most of the time. If you do think a draw is likely, you have to be prepared to call turn, and call any non spade river. The turn also gives you a few outs if he does have a set. All that said, I don't think that's enough to justify calling the turn.

                            When he shoves river, I think his range can almost be narrowed down to 77, maybe KJ or a flush, but 77 makes the most sense by far.
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                            Comment


                              #15
                              The main reasons for folding the flop are

                              1. You are not ahead of his range - unless you throw in a few total airballs
                              2. You are oop and he more or less knows what you have
                              3. You are probably not getting to sd cheaply


                              Originally posted by brady23 View Post

                              In my mind u are only losing on the flop to 77 and KJ, however I don't believe the raise on the flop contains many bluffs more likely the two above hands and some str8 and flush combo draws. So maybe playing for stacks on the flop isn't so bad but seems a little high variance.
                              ^^

                              If his range on the flop has us dead or flipping then playing for stacks on the flop is brutal. Just to make it worse you fold out whatever small % of airballs he may have

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                For clarity I didn't mean Jamflys decisions were horrible (I might think they are thou), I meant that we had horrible decisions to make.

                                Reference for the brutal slagging.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                  Definitely wouldn't have JJ in his range I don't think given the above info, if a competent player has seen u get it in pre as light as AJ then he would definitely want to play for stacks wit JJ
                                  I think there is a big difference between 4-bet bluff once with 27bb with AJ and the range our thinking hero get's 50bb in with, especially given the dynamic that he's been caught already.

                                  I personally wouldn't be able to 3-bet play from stacks given, we have position in the hand, hero is probably going to c-bet 100% of the time or close to it and it's very marginally 3bet/5bet get it in. Do you honestly think hero is gonna snap get 50bb in here with 99 or AJ again? I don't anyway and that's why if I were villain in this hand JJ would certainly be in my range.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                    I think there is a big difference between 4-bet bluff once with 27bb with AJ and the range our thinking hero get's 50bb in with, especially given the dynamic that he's been caught already.

                                    I personally wouldn't be able to 3-bet play from stacks given, we have position in the hand, hero is probably going to c-bet 100% of the time or close to it and it's very marginally 3bet/5bet get it in. Do you honestly think hero is gonna snap get 50bb in here with 99 or AJ again? I don't anyway and that's why if I were villain in this hand JJ would certainly be in my range.
                                    Well personally I would not be smoothing there with JJ regardless of whether I am willing to play for stacks or not, however against an aggro player in this scenario, I am willing to play for them. I think most competent players would not be smoothing JJ in this spot

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                      Well personally I would not be smoothing there with JJ regardless of whether I am willing to play for stacks or not, however against an aggro player in this scenario, I am willing to play for them. I think most competent players would not be smoothing JJ in this spot
                                      So when you're not prepared to play for stacks you think it's a good idea to turn JJ into a bluff by 3bet folding?
                                      Pining for Wa'erford

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                        Well personally I would not be smoothing there with JJ regardless of whether I am willing to play for stacks or not, however against an aggro player in this scenario, I am willing to play for them. I think most competent players would not be smoothing JJ in this spot
                                        I couldn't disagree more.

                                        Tons of players would flat JJ in position this deep. Flatting keeps all his weaker pairs in his range. He opens every pair in this spots, this deep right? We crush tons of hands, when we 3-bet we're allowing the villain to play perfectly against our range. There are so many other positives towards flatting, like we've position, we're hugely underepped and we've an aggro villain is willing to barrell off, c-bet, call the raise and call the turn bet when we do hit our set.

                                        It's up to you to trust your game post flop. 3-bet folding JJ here is pretty bad to me. 3-bet calling is super thin in a soft live game that we're quite deep in. Fine, if you want to ride the variance and aimlessly 3-bet/snap it off 50bb deep but to me that's not good and something that a competent player with an edge should avoid doing. I would go as far as saying way more competent players flat here than 3-bet in a structure like this.
                                        Last edited by peterswellman; 04-09-12, 13:17.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                          So when you're not prepared to play for stacks you think it's a good idea to turn JJ into a bluff by 3bet folding?
                                          That a joke?

                                          Did u not read the following line??

                                          I said I was willing to get it in, I'm just covering all the bases, if I'm playing against a total nit I'm still going to 3 bet to isolate and polarize his range even more and
                                          if they come back over the top then I'll consider folding.

                                          Something wrong with that?

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                            That a joke?

                                            Did u not read the following line??

                                            I said I was willing to get it in, I'm just covering all the bases, if I'm playing against a total nit I'm still going to 3 bet to isolate and polarize his range even more and
                                            if they come back over the top then I'll consider folding.

                                            Something wrong with that?
                                            What do you do against someone who you get the impression that is capable but you haven't much of a read on? What's your plan readless, 3-bet/c or 3-bet/f?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                              I couldn't disagree more.

                                              Tons of players would flat JJ in position this deep. Flatting keeps all his weaker pairs in his range. He opens every pair in this spots, this deep right? We crush tons of hands, when we 3-bet we're allowing the villain to play perfectly against our range. There are so many other positives towards flatting, like we've position, we're hugely underepped and we've an aggro villain is willing to barrell off, c-bet, call the raise and call the turn bet when we do hit our set.

                                              It's up to you to trust your game post flop. 3-bet folding JJ here is pretty bad to me. 3-bet calling is super thin in a soft live game that we're quite deep in. Fine, if you want to ride the variance and aimlessly 3-bet/snap it off 50bb deep but to me that's not good and something that a competent player with an edge should avoid doing. I would go as far as saying way more competent players flat here than 3-bet in a structure like this.
                                              Well I think you have alot of logic.in what you have said.

                                              Firstly I said I dont fold this spot against a competent aggro player I never said 3 bet fold in this spot.
                                              Nextly you are making very general assumptions here and taking into consideration the overall strength of the field which isn't really an issue here.
                                              This is something I'm personally trying to address in my game because the use of the whole term "oh its standard", is the most over-used term in poker. I trust my post flop game perfectly well but if I feel my edge in a hand.lies in my preflop play than why.not utilise that instead.

                                              I think it is very pig-headed to say my approach is aimless and I dont agree it is, I just think in this spot it's optima

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                What do you do against someone who you get the impression that is capable but you haven't much of a read on? What's your plan readless, 3-bet/c or 3-bet/f?
                                                Perhaps that's a spot to smooth I'm not disagreeing with that, but you are kind of changing the issue here, who cares what I do with JJ when I first down against an unknown, its not really the discussion he has info and history so what's your point really?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                  Well I think you have alot of logic.in what you have said.

                                                  Firstly I said I dont fold this spot against a competent aggro player I never said 3 bet fold in this spot.
                                                  Nextly you are making very general assumptions here and taking into consideration the overall strength of the field which isn't really an issue here.
                                                  This is something I'm personally trying to address in my game because the use of the whole term "oh its standard", is the most over-used term in poker. I trust my post flop game perfectly well but if I feel my edge in a hand.lies in my preflop play than why.not utilise that instead.

                                                  I think it is very pig-headed to say my approach is aimless and I dont agree it is, I just think in this spot it's optima

                                                  What range do you put him on 4-bet/c? Now there might be some bluffs in this 4-bet which is always nice if we do 3-bet?

                                                  I think the overall strength of fields in decisions like this is key. Sure, we all know, 2+2 tells us to not wait for a better spot if we think we've an edge we should take it but it's all about what edge we think we've more of an edge in.

                                                  You're a good player, you wouldn't know me, but i've played against you at least twice before and you would have an edge in a 300 live tournament in Ireland, no doubt. So it kind of frustrates me a little to see you're so willing to just auto get 50bb pre in with JJ against a competent aggro player. I guess, I read competent more and you take the aggro side into account a bit more. You've an edge post-flop and preflop in this spot, if you realistically think your greater edge is getting this in pre than post-flop i'd certainly disagree.

                                                  Agrtee, totally with your comments being branded around 2 much. I think if you posted this on 2+2 you would get a much of 3bet/5bet jam replies tbh because getting 50bb in against an aggro villian is probably standard.

                                                  Aimless maybe wasn't the correct word tbh. You do have a plan in this hand so shouldn't have said that.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                    Perhaps that's a spot to smooth I'm not disagreeing with that, but you are kind of changing the issue here, who cares what I do with JJ when I first down against an unknown, its not really the discussion he has info and history so what's your point really?
                                                    Just thinking about this spot in general. When spots like this come up, I try and think of every scenario that can occur and how I would best approach it. Just me going off in a tangent, sorry.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I really use to think "ah ill get a better spot" alot of the time, I think if your image is pretty aggro, you can realistically get calls from AK, AQ, 99, 10 10

                                                      Now I totally understand that leaves about 7 hands that gets the money in the middle, 3 you're fucked against 2 u crush and 2 u have a slight edge over so the equity is quite tight and seems like a flip but I think the value lies elsewhere, cos I think there are alot of scenarios taking the players into consideration where 4 bet bluffs are very common.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                                                        I fold flop with info on villain
                                                        This, and it should be fairly standard too imo.

                                                        Such a spew of your stack.

                                                        (haven't read all of the thread yet, seems like a lot of posts for a flop fold though)

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Yeah b/f flop seems quite nitty but this deep OOP and given texture it's likely best. I probably peel/re-eval in game since turn will go ck/ck some given stacks and villain not wanting to get c/shoved on with his semi-bluffs. When he fires any decent sized bet I'm folding fairly quickly and kicking myself for setting light to 6BB.
                                                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Havent posted in a while, Ive been busy.
                                                            The arent numerous options after your flop bet and his raise, you have to just call here pretty much 100% of the time. I's take a check call line on the flop here a lot, because ill be bluffcatching so much with weaker hands than this, so its nice to bluffcatch with the top of my range here with kq on kjx. I plan on calling down on most turns and rivers but the os 10 is a horrible card, the villain now has at least a decent amount of equity so I sigh fold turn here.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                              The arent numerous options after your flop bet and his raise, you have to just call here pretty much 100% of the time.
                                                              why?

                                                              Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                              I's take a check call line on the flop here a lot, because ill be bluffcatching so much with weaker hands than this, so its nice to bluffcatch with the top of my range here with kq on kjx. I plan on calling down on most turns and rivers but the os 10 is a horrible card, the villain now has at least a decent amount of equity so I sigh fold turn here.
                                                              This is kind of interesting but how do you balance this? what's your c-betting range and what's your c/calling range? Have you got a c/raising range? Are you c/folding a lot? Genuinely interested as nobody has suggested c/calling flop as a default - would you ever c/c flop with top 2 or JJ here? ( tbh i dont think i'm a fan of this line here with KQ but it may have some merit). I see it as a pot control line but you can't pot control this unless he decides to check back somewhere - and going to sd having checked KQ on KJ7 may not be advantageous in the future

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