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Donkament Fold of AK Pre-Flop

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    Donkament Fold of AK Pre-Flop

    Yay, first post here.

    Standard small buy-in casino donkament. I am the best player that the table. The rest are a split of competent and clueless.

    Blinds are 150/300, Average Stack is 6.5K.

    UTG+1 (Loosey competent, with average stack c.6K): Raises to 750. Standard for him, raised UTG last hand, won uncontested.

    Folds to CO (Loosey, not so competent, with smallish stack c4.5K), who thinks for a second and smooth calls.

    Button (Hero, stack of 12K), Looks down at AKs and smooth calls. I'm ahead here, and I think shoving looses value. I would be by far the tightest player at the table, and everyone knows this.

    The BB (7K, 2nd best player at the table), shoves.

    UTG+1 dwells for a few minutes and makes a weeping fold. CO thinks for a minute and folds.

    I go into the tank. Action?

    #2
    Re-raise pre and call now.

    Comment


      #3
      ah come on

      short-stacked donkament that will descend into total luckfest?

      call quicker than Usain Bolt won the Olympics
      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

      Comment


        #4
        I can safely put two of the three on A,X (quite possibly AK) and the other on a PP.

        Is it still an insta-call?

        Comment


          #5
          3bet preflop, and snap call now.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Jaden View Post
            I can safely put two of the three on A,X (quite possibly AK) and the other on a PP.

            Is it still an insta-call?
            why cant the original raiser have qj and the flatter have 77 or something. There is no way you can safely put people on a ax hands. with the action so far.

            Comment


              #7
              UTG +1 Raise was a PP or A,T+, KQs at a push. He's loose-ish but not stupid. A two-in-a-row is usually not with air or shite, especially from EP.

              The flat call, given the guys stack looked like A,X or < 88. I think he shoves a better PP here (a look! I have two cards the same! kinda thing).

              The BB push is the one that confused me. From observation of his play, I felt that JJ was his likely hand, but I can't discount AA-QQ. AK is also a distinct possibility.

              I convinced myself that the most likely scenario was that UTG was A,x and BB was a PP, with CO being A,x.

              I honestly think my mistake was not re-raising or shoving the first time round. I cursed my stupidity and folded.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                .... I am the best player that the table....
                Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                ... I cursed my stupidity and folded....

                Comment


                  #9
                  A momentary lapse into FPS.....

                  Comment


                    #10
                    1st action: IMO there's only one move pre and that's shoving.

                    2nd action: I hate how you've gotten into this spot but it's a call and never a fold.
                    It's all an illusion

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                      Yay, first post here.

                      Standard small buy-in casino donkament. I think i am the best player that the table. The rest are a split of competent and clueless imo

                      Blinds are 150/300, Average Stack is 6.5K.

                      UTG+1 (Loosey competent, with average stack c.6K): Raises to 750. Standard for him, raised UTG last hand, won uncontested.

                      Folds to CO (Loosey, not so competent, with smallish stack c4.5K), who thinks for a second and smooth calls.

                      Button (Hero, stack of 12K), Looks down at AKs and smooth calls. I'm ahead here, and I think shoving looses value. Ughhhh I would be by far the tightest player at the table, and everyone knows this.

                      The BB (7K, best player at the table), shoves with any 2 cards.

                      UTG+1 dwells for a few minutes and makes a weeping fold. CO thinks for a minute and folds.

                      I go into the tank. Action?
                      FYP

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Folding here is absolutely terrible, i'm sorry its just a huge mistake,

                        Flatting is only fine pre if you snap jizz call shoves like this
                        http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I pretty much came to the conclusion directly after the hand that I'd made a fairly Gerry Ryan sized mistake by folding. I accept this, as is easy to do in the cold light of hindsight.

                          I think what bugged me the most about a PF shove is that I may as well be wearing a t-shirt that says " I have a premium hand" when I do it - only a better hand calls. Loss of value was foremost on my mind here. I guess it was a case of too much looking to my right, and not enough to my left.

                          As a by, when the hand was over, UTG +1 and CO both flipped over AQ (UTG +1 was suited, CO os). BB didn't show, but asking later said he had JJ, which I believe.

                          Right decision, wrong method, I guess.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It seems Jaden like many poker players you think your better than you are.

                            Are you Nicky O Donnell I was the best player at the table but dont 3bet ak in position and fold to a shove poor play imo.

                            You also must be some genius to know 2 guys have A x in hand could they not have pocket pairs kq? suited connectors etc

                            Loss of value was premost on your mind well you done agood job on losing value there.

                            But with 20bbs here its an easy shove or raise with all the dead money in pre too.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What???

                              Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                              Standard small buy-in casino donkament. I am the best player that the table. The rest are a split of competent and clueless.
                              I honestly doubt this is true.

                              UTG+1 (Loosey competent, with average stack c.6K): Raises to 750. Standard for him, raised UTG last hand, won uncontested.
                              If he was UTG last hand, then he would be BB now.
                              Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                              UTG +1 Raise was a PP or A,T+, KQs at a push. He's loose-ish but not stupid. A two-in-a-row is usually not with air or shite, especially from EP.
                              As above

                              Originally posted by Jaden View Post
                              I can safely put two of the three on A,X (quite possibly AK) and the other on a PP.
                              No you can't. Not based anything you said in the OP

                              The BB push is the one that confused me. From observation of his play, I felt that JJ was his likely hand, but I can't discount AA-QQ. AK is also a distinct possibility.
                              What??
                              This is nonsense, you are only saying that becasue he told you he had JJ. If you were the best player at the table, and if you were able to put him on JJ, then his play should make perfect sense. Why would shoving into an inflated pot confuse you.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I love the way Mellor dissects posts
                                It's all an illusion

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  As others have commented I think raising / shoving is far and away the best option when it first comes to you. There are 6.5bb's in the middle when the average stack is 20 bb's you have a ton of FE, the caller is probably bad as flatting pretty much anything there is a mistake and you have AKs

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by 72over View Post
                                    I love the way Mellor dissects posts
                                    especially at 4 am.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I think what bugged me the most about a PF shove is that I may as well be wearing a t-shirt that says " I have a premium hand" when I do it - only a better hand calls.
                                      We also get better hands (lower PP's) to fold. We're effectively 23bb's deep so there isn't much scope to outplay anyone on the flop. In saying that I'd prefer to just 3bet to something like 2.5k and snap call any shove.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
                                        especially at 4 am.
                                        lol, still in australia, so it was 3pm
                                        but I get that a lot, all my posts are 10pm-7am irish time

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                          lol, still in australia, so it was 3pm
                                          but I get that a lot, all my posts are 10pm-7am irish time
                                          It's genuinely worrying that I post at pretty much the same times and I'm still in Ireland.
                                          "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            can you give us your reasoning for just flatting on the button here with AKs?
                                            By you explaining your train of thought here, (which is obviously flawed), the posters here will be able to put you straight.
                                            And by the way, if the bb is a better player than you think, he would be shoving a lot of hands here that would surprise you!!

                                            Most important, keep posting, accept advice and dont be put off people telling you you need to improve. Everyone needs thick skin around here, so when you come on and tell people that your the best player at the table, but then go on to explain the hand and it becomes so obvious that in fact you werent, just learn and improve.

                                            Connie

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                              Everyone needs thick skin around here, so when you come on and tell people that your the best player at the table, but then go on to explain the hand and it becomes so obvious that in fact you werent, just learn and improve.
                                              Connie
                                              When you post about butchering a relatively simple hand, and then state that you are the best player at the table, I think it's fairly obvious that you are doing so with tongue in cheek. Apparently, it's not that obvious to others.

                                              Anyway, I flattted this because I'd rather play a multiway pot and hit to get paid big, than take it down pre and get the 2 raises. I have a very, very tight image, so alot of the time, I can force a fold on the flop as plan B. I have a decent (relatively) stack, but not huge. I'm not interested in taking a flip when I can win this one uncontested.

                                              When the BB shoves, I think "yay!", but the 2 folds get me thinking. I convinced my self that both the EP raiser and CO were probably playing A,x. The BBs hand was almost certainly ahead of me here (a decent PP). With 2 outs gone, I'm not in good shape. I've been paying close attention to the table for a while now, and my reads are solid-ish. The UTG raiser is well known to me, he may aswell have beeen playing his hand face up.

                                              The post is more a warning of the perils of Fancy Play Syndrome.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                [QUOTE=Jaden;5995
                                                When the BB shoves, I think "yay!", but the 2 folds get me thinking. I convinced my self that both the EP raiser and CO were probably playing A,x. The BBs hand was almost certainly ahead of me here (a decent PP). With 2 outs gone, I'm not in good shape.[/QUOTE]

                                                i think this is seriously flawed thinking
                                                you can't assume just cos everyone enters a pot that they are holding Ax and nor can you say that 2 of your outs are gone without actually seeing them. it is also reasonable to suggest here that the EP raiser could have played with 88,99,1010,JJ,AJ,AQ,KQ,KJ,QJ out of them hands only two of them contain an A if he was holding anything better he would have played.the CO player has a very wide range in hoping to catch a nice flop and probably bust a few guys so we can assign him any PP or S/C or A,2,3,4,5,10,J,Q or maybe any suited A. again alot of hands here that he could have played with that don't contain an A. BB here imo has a wide range aswell he also may have reads on this table and knows that a reshipp here will fold out alot of hands he could have done this move with anything from 99+ AJ+ or KQ and now that he knows that you will fold AK to a reshipp don't be surprised that the next time you meet him he will push into you alot more.
                                                truth of the matter here is that you folded a hand that would beat everything upto QQ 44% of the time or there abouts.

                                                as for him having JJ i really don't know why he held himself back from claiming AA


                                                fwiw i don't think you were in as bad a shape as you made out



                                                "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

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