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    Exit hand from Ladbrokes 550 ME

    Ok so I think everyone I talked to over the weekend knew I was going to post this, simply because it's a strange one.

    Neil, just want you to know I fully accept the ruling given at the time by the TD and yee all did savage work over the weekend and I really enjoyed it, as I do any of your games I play.

    Blind levels 500/1000 ante 100.

    Folded around to me on Button. I have 10.5k left and look down at 6h4h and ship in.
    SB folds and BB clearly says call. I hear it and so does the majority of the table.
    She flips her cards over and then goes to move her chips forward into the middle.
    She has A9 offsuit and has a stack of 10.3k.

    Meanwhile the dealer is oblivious to what is going on at the table and decides to start mixing all the other players' mucked cards and the rest of the deck. We both jump up and start saying "Whoa hold on!!!" but it was too late.

    Call for the floor and the first TD, a youngish fella, didn't know what to do so called over another more experienced TD.
    The situation was explained and he ruled that the the whole deck had to be shuffled and the number of the players cards that were folded were to be taken from the deck and the deck to be re-shuffled and dealt as normal. I think it amounted to 12 cards being taken from the deck, ie 6 other players x 2.

    Now bear in mind I'm in for my tournament with live cards and a marginal hand so superstitously I'm major pissed off that this happened as I have a bad feeling this re-shuffle will go against me.

    So the 9 pops up on the turn to decimate me and a relieved Norwegian lady comes over to give me a consolation hug and kiss. I'm down to 2 antes and bust a couple of hands later after spinning it up to 4.8k again

    Thoughts please on this quare 1

    #2
    Originally posted by bantee View Post
    The situation was explained and he ruled that the the whole deck had to be shuffled and the number of the players cards that were folded were to be taken from the deck and the deck to be re-shuffled and dealt as normal.
    Lol seriously? Take random cards out of the deck and deal board? Oh come on now, what difference does it make if these cards are in or out of the deck?

    1.. Shuffle entire deck
    2.. Deal board from entire deck
    3.. Best hand is a winner

    Comment


      #3
      So the dealer has started the wash? If so I don't see how you can complain about any ruling made after that as the flop was already compromised and how they decide to deal the flop is irrelevant imo.

      Obv the dealer has made a mistake and how you can begin a wash if two stacks of chips are clearly past the line is beyond me.

      UL
      Pining for Wa'erford

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by sligboi View Post
        So the dealer has started the wash? If so I don't see how you can complain about any ruling made after that as the flop was already compromised and how they decide to deal the flop is irrelevant imo.

        Obv the dealer has made a mistake and how you can begin a wash if two stacks of chips are clearly past the line is beyond me.

        UL
        Dealers make mistakes. The question is how to deal with these mistakes.

        Comment


          #5
          i think the ruling is absolutely irrelevant here. you got it in bad and will lose 60% of whatever way you decide to draw the board.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Morihei View Post
            Dealers make mistakes. The question is how to deal with these mistakes.
            I understand..but what is actually wrong with the way they dealt with this mistake?
            Pining for Wa'erford

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by sligboi View Post
              I understand..but what is actually wrong with the way they dealt with this mistake?
              Nothing wrong with it, just marvelling at the thought process of the TD who thought it would make any difference to remove some random cards from the deck before having the board dealt.

              Incidentally, I wonder if any of Danielle's crew would've made this type of dealer error

              Comment


                #8
                First reply is the correct one.
                Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                  i think the ruling is absolutely irrelevant here. you got it in bad and will lose 60% of whatever way you decide to draw the board.
                  Lol if I wanted advice on how I played the hand I would have brought it to the HH forum!
                  I brought it to the rulings forum for other reasons such as sharing it as it was an unusual situation and getting other peoples' views on it.

                  My main gripe is with the dealer because on day1 she made numerous mistakes and the floor had to be called a few times to intervene. Obviously tiredness is an issue and I know dealing can be a hard job but IMO she wasn't fully concentrating on what was happening at the table over the weekend and big mistakes were made.
                  This is a €550 game for a top prize of 75k and these little rulings can have a very big effect on a player's tournament life.

                  BTW I know I was a 60/40 dog but the run of the cards was changed by this and the outcome may have been different otherwise.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by bantee View Post
                    BTW I know I was a 60/40 dog but the run of the cards was changed by this and the outcome may have been different otherwise.
                    Serious poker players don't still think like this do they?

                    Do they?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                      Serious poker players don't still think like this do they?

                      Do they?
                      No thats true. Maybe I'm not a serious player but I'm just a tad annoyed about it that's all.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by bantee View Post
                        No thats true. Maybe I'm not a serious player but I'm just a tad annoyed about it that's all.
                        I agree. You would expect better when the stakes are at this level.

                        Shocking incompetence by the sound of it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Unlucky Brian, it's never nice exiting an event and to have it happen amidst confusion certainly makes it worse, but deep down you know the reshuffle or whatever doesn't matter a jot. Well done on cashing in the side event btw.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            think iwould have been shouting for the chips to be split and deal the next hand



                            "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The TD who made this ruling spoke to me about it this morning.

                              His thought process on it was that the mucked cards had been mixed back in with the rest of the pack and so by randomly taking 12 cards out the odds remained the same for both players to hit.

                              I personally would have just reshuffled the whole deck and ran it.

                              Unlucky and well done on cashing in the side event.
                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                              Comment


                                #16
                                the mistake actually worked agianst the girl with the A9, stats wise you can assume a lot of mucked cards are low cards like 6, 4 and less likelu any As etc so you got a good ruling.

                                what do you think the ruling should be ?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                  The TD who made this ruling spoke to me about it this morning.

                                  His thought process on it was that the mucked cards had been mixed back in with the rest of the pack and so by randomly taking 12 cards out the odds remained the same for both players to hit.

                                  I personally would have just reshuffled the whole deck and ran it.

                                  Unlucky and well done on cashing in the side event.
                                  Thanks JP, that's what most people said the ruling should have been but I didn't have any issue with it at the time. Just wanted to post here for feedback and again I want to reiterate that all the team working over the weekend did exceptional jobs and it all ran very smoothly.

                                  Probably all worked out for the best in case I lasted longer in the main event and wouldn't have been able to play the SE then and get a few quid back

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Solskjaer View Post
                                    the mistake actually worked agianst the girl with the A9, stats wise you can assume a lot of mucked cards are low cards like 6, 4 and less likelu any As etc so you got a good ruling.

                                    what do you think the ruling should be ?
                                    Yes its true that low cards could have been mucked and but any 12 random cards could have been taken back out. Either way I'm an underdog.

                                    I don't know what the ruling should have been which is why I said I'd post it here and I think the general consensus is that the whole deck should have been reshuffled.

                                    Both me and a few on the table were quite surprised that she snap-called off her tournament with A9, even though it was a button shove, but I hadn't been raising her BB seldom due to my short stack.

                                    As I said above, it probably all worked out for the best.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Solskjaer View Post
                                      the mistake actually worked agianst the girl with the A9, stats wise you can assume a lot of mucked cards are low cards like 6, 4 and less likelu any As etc so you got a good ruling.
                                      Lol.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by bantee View Post
                                        This is a €550 game for a top prize of 75k and these little rulings can have a very big effect on a player's tournament life.
                                        I'm sorry, but rulings like this have no discernable effect on a player's tournament life. If she'd mucked you hand it might have made a difference but not if she caused the deck to be reshuffled. For all you know the original flop could have been 999.

                                        Originally posted by bantee View Post
                                        BTW I know I was a 60/40 dog but the run of the cards was changed by this and the outcome may have been different otherwise.
                                        No it wasn't. You remain 60/40, whether she draws the cards based on her dog's birthday, her credit card balance etc.

                                        I know you're looking for views on the ruling but your posts also suggest you think it might have been different otherwise or that you lost out on some expectation. I think its important, in terms of poker theory, that you realise this is not the case. As far as I know, this happens in most online poker games - the deck is 'reshuffled' during the hand.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                          No it wasn't. You remain 60/40, whether she draws the cards based on her dog's birthday, her credit card balance etc.

                                          I know you're looking for views on the ruling but your posts also suggest you think it might have been different otherwise or that you lost out on some expectation. I think its important, in terms of poker theory, that you realise this is not the case. As far as I know, this happens in most online poker games - the deck is 'reshuffled' during the hand.
                                          Ok so I agree it sounds like I think it could have been different but we will never know. I realise I'm still 60/40 but it sounds a little bit like you're trying to teach me some theory on odds that I already know.

                                          Not sure do you play online but dealer error doesn't occur

                                          Thanks for the feedback anyway.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            60/40?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Solskjaer View Post
                                              60/40?
                                              Am I being levelled?

                                              6h4h
                                              Win : 40.48%
                                              Tie : 0.43%

                                              v

                                              As9d
                                              Win : 59.09%
                                              Tie : 0.43%

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by bantee View Post
                                                Am I being levelled?

                                                6h4h
                                                Win : 40.48%
                                                Tie : 0.43%

                                                v

                                                As9d
                                                Win : 59.09%
                                                Tie : 0.43%
                                                ah 40/60

                                                *and yes

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Is there a case for asking people what they folded? I know there's an issue with possible collusion but if each of the 6 players who folded know exactly what they folded would it not be best to take those 12cards out and then do a reshuffle?

                                                  I think if we had a camera table and this happened this is what the TD's would do, go to the tape and find out what 12 cards were folded and then do a reshuffle.

                                                  Thoughts?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by DonkeyPokerTour View Post
                                                    Is there a case for asking people what they folded? I know there's an issue with possible collusion but if each of the 6 players who folded know exactly what they folded would it not be best to take those 12cards out and then do a reshuffle?
                                                    I think if we had a camera table and this happened this is what the TD's would do, go to the tape and find out what 12 cards were folded and then do a reshuffle.

                                                    Thoughts?
                                                    Can't really see this working, would probably only rise more contraversy...

                                                    I would have thought reshuffling the whole deck and flopping from the full deck would have been the unanimous choice!!

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                      Nothing wrong with it, just marvelling at the thought process of the TD who thought it would make any difference to remove some random cards from the deck before having the board dealt.

                                                      Incidentally, I wonder if any of Danielle's crew would've made this type of dealer error
                                                      Same crew different day ! Dealer mistake And dealt with on the spot ! I don't see how a different crew comes into it ! As in total I was called to 3 incidents that all were not very big ! The dealer list is generally the same and I have to say this dannielle does a good job but so does Orla ! Not one dealer was late back over the weekend and I had ver few issues ! Hats off to all
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                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Because that hole cards were compromised in the muck with the flop cards about to be dealt ! I think liams ruling is fine ! I felt for Brian but unfortunately these mistakes happen and we move on ! Both players got a fair crack of the wip ! The td did ask on the ruling after but some things in poker are new at every event ! This one was a first ! By the Td removing the cards allowed the players a fair crack as players had folded cards and the same amount should be removed to allow the same % chance for both players even if we don't know what these cards are !

                                                        Sorry for the mishap

                                                        Regards

                                                        Neill k
                                                        Last edited by BIG-SLICK-POKER; 06-10-10, 21:07.
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                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Lloyd Christmas View Post
                                                          Can't really see this working, would probably only rise more contraversy...

                                                          I would have thought reshuffling the whole deck and flopping from the full deck would have been the unanimous choice!!
                                                          Fine on a feature table but not in any other circumstances ! As to much collusion may occur ! Players can give any 2 cards ! Re shuffle always best option
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                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by BIG-SLICK-POKER View Post
                                                            Because that hole cards were compromised in the muck with the flop cards about to be dealt ! I think liams ruling is fine ! I felt for Brian but unfortunately these mistakes happen and we move on ! Both players got a fair crack of the wip ! The td did ask on the ruling after but some things in poker are new at every event ! This one was a first ! By the Td removing the cards allowed the players a fair crack as players had folded cards and the same amount should be removed to allow the same % chance for both players even if we don't know what these cards are !

                                                            Sorry for the mishap

                                                            Regards

                                                            Neill k
                                                            Thanks for taking the time out to give feedback. I wanted to share this hand because its a strange one. People are sick of hearing about it now.

                                                            In general the standard of dealing was good over the weekend. Already looking forward to next year

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by BIG-SLICK-POKER View Post
                                                              By the Td removing the cards allowed the players a fair crack as players had folded cards and the same amount should be removed to allow the same % chance for both players even if we don't know what these cards are
                                                              None so deaf as those who will not hear.

                                                              your statement is baloney. Let's say, for example, I have a pocket pair. I have a percentage chance of flopping a set from 50 cards I haven't seen, yes?

                                                              The point is, the percentage chance remains the same even if you were to remove ALL the remaining cards from the live deck and leave only five (board cards).

                                                              So you can remove 12 cards if you think that would help, or you can remove 27 cards, or you can sprinkle some magic dust on the table, NOTHING CHANGES.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                None so deaf as those who will not hear.

                                                                your statement is baloney. Let's say, for example, I have a pocket pair. I have a percentage chance of flopping a set from 50 cards I haven't seen, yes?

                                                                The point is, the percentage chance remains the same even if you were to remove ALL the remaining cards from the live deck and leave only five (board cards).

                                                                So you can remove 12 cards if you think that would help, or you can remove 27 cards, or you can sprinkle some magic dust on the table, NOTHING CHANGES.
                                                                Point taken ! The Td that made the ruling choose this way ! It was done by the time I arrived ! Again some things happen at events that are new all the time ! But as and when a decision is made it's very hard to reverse it when u come on the ruling and it's already taken place !

                                                                Neill
                                                                www.pokerinthepub.ie
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                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                                  Serious poker players don't still think like this do they?

                                                                  Do they?
                                                                  To be a really good poker player you have to have a gambling instinct, and a love for numbers. These qualities ALWAYS lead to superstitions of some kind. It something as humans we just can't get away from.

                                                                  I can see his point, the outcome might have been different, but such is life, dealers make mistakes and the TD made the right call.

                                                                  I still find it strange that the majority of poker players look for someone or something to blame when they bust out. Remember, there is still a lot of luck in poker, especially today when most players in a tournament like this have read the same books and watched the same videos.

                                                                  No other valid ruling would have made any difference to the outcome of this hand in the grand scheme of things, the dealer made a mistake and you have to live with it.

                                                                  You never know, a different dealer mistake in the future could lead to you winning a tournament.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Logic is inversely proportional to superstition.

                                                                    Comment

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