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Button mucks hand after raising before BB has made decision

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    Button mucks hand after raising before BB has made decision

    There was a ruling made at Killarney at the weekend that I'd just like to hear opinions on.

    Folds around and button raises, SB deliberates and eventually folds. Button now throws his hand toward muck.

    Questions are:

    Is button's hand dead?
    If so, does button get his raise back and BB wins blinds and antes? Or does the BB win the whole pot incl button's raise? What about forcing button to call the BB but being allowed take back raise (similar to www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ApViySY2E)



    If button's hand is 100% retrievable, how does this affect the decision?

    Button's hand has touched the muck but is 99% identifiable. Button tells TD his exact two cards. TD looks at cards and confirms they are the cards. How did this affect the decision?

    Also note, the button did throw his cards toward muck, it was not a dealer error.




    While we're here, since there's no point making a new thread, I'll throw out another question in the muck/hand=dead sector.
    Action concludes on river and player A turns over Q5 on AQ549 board. Player B turns one ace face up and slides his two cards (one face up and on face down) toward the muck. After he slides his hand forward he goes "actually oh wait, turn up my second card". The second card is a 9 (cards are 100% retrievable here. Player B thought he was beat and meant to muck his hand. Halfway on the way to the muck he realised he had the best hand and asked for his hand to be turned up). Who gets the pot?
    Last edited by Jam-Fly; 03-10-11, 02:53.
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    #2
    1. BB scoops everything

    2. Has he not left go of his hand between sliding it in (oh matron!) and flipping over the 2nd card?
    If not, his hand is still live but just turned it into an almighty slowroll.
    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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      #3
      just wondering if there's any other comments on this before I 'reveal' the results
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        #4
        BB scoops the lot. Including the raise.
        The button mucked his hand, why would he get the raise back. It doesn't matter that the TD can get them back. He folded.

        Being 100% retrievable only matters where somebody else tossed cards to the muck and they hit his, or the dealer went to move them to the muck before he acted.


        Second hand.
        If his hand hasnt been mucked then it's live.

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          #5
          Cheers for reponses.


          In hand 1, button was allowed retrieve his hand from the muck. He told TD his exact two cards, TD looks at cards which are suspected to be btn's hand and gives button back his hand.

          The cards that had touched the muck were 99% retrievable.




          In hand 2, TD comes over and initially seems to award pot to player B (A9). After clarifying exactly what happened, he awards pot to player A claiming player B had several chances to turn his hand over fully and did not, he remarked "lesson is, turn your hands over at showdown guys".
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            #6
            Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
            In hand 1, button was allowed retrieve his hand from the muck. He told TD his exact two cards, TD looks at cards which are suspected to be btn's hand and gives button back his hand.

            The cards that had touched the muck were 99% retrievable.
            The only time i see that as being acceptable is where the button had a genuine claim that he could see BB was in the hand, say his cards were covered or he was out of his line of sight

            In hand 2, TD comes over and initially seems to award pot to player B (A9). After clarifying exactly what happened, he awards pot to player A claiming player B had several chances to turn his hand over fully and did not, he remarked "lesson is, turn your hands over at showdown guys".
            That's ridic, If the TD wanted to give it to player A, he should have order the dealer to muck the hand. Tabling the hand means it is live and he gets the hand.


            A similar thing to hand one happened to me before.
            Guy 3 bets to $25, original raiser to my left folds out of turn, 3bettor mucks, i announce i'm still in the hand as the BB.
            Cardroom manager was nearby and said it was my pot.
            I said to the other guy, to be fair I was folding, so I gave him his $25 bet back and I kept the $10 left over.

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