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    what should the raise have been?

    I was playing last night at a cash game in a 2/5 game and utg straddled for 10 euro but had place out a 25 euro chip and when play got back to him he raised just saying raise and threw in another 25 euro chip and one player said the raise should only have been 35 as the 25 chip was actually ony in for 10 but he tried to make it 50.I think it was a perfect 50 raise an cant for the life of me understand why he tought this.
    Anyone any toughts on this!?

    #2
    its a 50 euro raise every day of the week.When a player throws out 1 or more chips and announces raise but doesnt state the raise then it is automatically the sum of the 2 chips put together

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      #3
      it depends on hpw many players were in the hand..need to know b4 knowing the pot size raise

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        #4
        ??? that doesnt make the slightest bit of difference.im assuming its NL?

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          #5
          course it does, it sounds like pot limit by the way the other player says only 35 allowed..u need to know how many players called the 10euro

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            #6
            Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
            course it does, it sounds like pot limit by the way the other player says only 35 allowed..u need to know how many players called the 10euro
            no i think the op means the person was saying it should only be 35 because the straddler was only in for 10 and the other guy thought the raise should only be the 25 plus the 10 he was in for.
            plus with rounding up then pl would make a raise either 30 or 40 ,couldnt be 35
            Last edited by liz:); 07-06-11, 16:02.

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              #7
              Originally posted by liz:) View Post
              no i think the op means the person was saying it should only be 35 because the straddler was only in for 10 and the other guy thought the raise should only be the 25 plus the 10 he was in for.
              ye mayb..u need to know if it was pot or no limit

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                #8
                Originally posted by Charlie Harper View Post
                course it does, it sounds like pot limit by the way the other player says only 35 allowed..u need to know how many players called the 10euro
                it could never be 35 anyway as i suppose it is a 1-2-5-10 game 3x5=15+1+2=18 so pot could never be 25 35 45 or anything with a 5 pots will always be either left as they are or rounded up .. would imagine its a nl game therefore the raise is €50 the other player obv thought it was 25+10 but its a clear €50 raise

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                  #9
                  This same thing came up with a ruling in a tournament I beleive,

                  Now to do some digging to find it cause I've nothing better to be doing

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                    it could never be 35 anyway as i suppose it is a 1-2-5-10 game 3x5=15+1+2=18 so pot could never be 25 35 45 or anything with a 5 pots will always be either left as they are or rounded up .. would imagine its a nl game therefore the raise is €50 the other player obv thought it was 25+10 but its a clear €50 raise
                    It can be 35. It's a 2/5 game not a 1/2/5/10 game.

                    UTG straddles to 10. Folded around to the SB who calls, BB folds. If it's PL, UTGs max bet is 35 which is (3 x 10) +5

                    Unless the OP let's us know if it's PL or NL and if there was anyone else in the hand it's pointless.

                    I had a ruling called on me in the Western Open where i made a bet where the TD read the situation wrong and didn't allow the raise to stand. It was an almost identical situation where he thought i had a large chip in for my BB, and i threw another chip on top and announced raised. He wasn't allowing the raise to be the value of the 2 chips combined but can't remember exactly the way he explained it. In the OP i'd call it a raise to 50 if NL, but wouldn't be surprised if it's not tbh

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                      #11
                      Sigh that was a waste of time, found the thread I was looking for but not the same situation


                      But from the thread above JP says that the sb/bb are already in the pot & do not count towards the term "multiple chips" so I wonder does it only count as a €35 raise here

                      JP to aisle 3 for a ruling please

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                        It can be 35. It's a 2/5 game not a 1/2/5/10 game.

                        UTG straddles to 10. Folded around to the SB who calls, BB folds. If it's PL, UTGs max bet is 35 which is (3 x 10) +5

                        Unless the OP let's us know if it's PL or NL and if there was anyone else in the hand it's pointless.

                        I had a ruling called on me in the Western Open where i made a bet where the TD read the situation wrong and didn't allow the raise to stand. It was an almost identical situation where he thought i had a large chip in for my BB, and i threw another chip on top and announced raised. He wasn't allowing the raise to be the value of the 2 chips combined but can't remember exactly the way he explained it. In the OP i'd call it a raise to 50 if NL, but wouldn't be surprised if it's not tbh
                        it cant be 35 if the bb folds the action has to go 3x5+10

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                          it cant be 35 if the bb folds the action has to go 3x5+10
                          I know you're a dealer and i'm not, but the way it was explained to me by a couple of people is that it's 3 times the last bet plus what's in the pot. In this instance, the last bet is the SB calling the 10 so 3 times his bet is 30 plus the BBs 5 is 35 no?

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                            I know you're a dealer and i'm not, but the way it was explained to me by a couple of people is that it's 3 times the last bet plus what's in the pot. In this instance, the last bet is the SB calling the 10 so 3 times his bet is 30 plus the BBs 5 is 35 no?
                            ye flushdraw is rite.

                            if sb calls and bb folds,the straddle can raise 3 x 10 + 5 =35

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                              I know you're a dealer and i'm not, but the way it was explained to me by a couple of people is that it's 3 times the last bet plus what's in the pot. In this instance, the last bet is the SB calling the 10 so 3 times his bet is 30 plus the BBs 5 is 35 no?
                              meh think were gonna have to wait for op to come back with more info

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by 67ofdiamonds View Post
                                I was playing last night at a cash game in a 2/5 game and utg straddled for 10 euro but had place out a 25 euro chip and when play got back to him he raised just saying raise and threw in another 25 euro chip and one player said the raise should only have been 35 as the 25 chip was actually ony in for 10 but he tried to make it 50.I think it was a perfect 50 raise an cant for the life of me understand why he tought this.
                                Anyone any toughts on this!?
                                Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                it cant be 35 if the bb folds the action has to go 3x5+10

                                The way it is descibed in op it must be a PL game because who can justify trying to limit the raise to 35 otherwise

                                as for the 35 raise it can be acheived as a max bet,

                                utg+1 limps for €10, folds back to straddle he can make it 3 x the €10 limp = the sb/bb = €37 but as you said most places round it off so I think it would be rounded to either €35 or €40 here for pot

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                  The way it is descibed in op it must be a PL game because who can justify trying to limit the raise to 35 otherwise

                                  as for the 35 raise it can be acheived as a max bet,

                                  utg+1 limps for €10, folds back to straddle he can make it 3 x the €10 limp = the sb/bb = €37 but as you said most places round it off so I think it would be rounded to either €35 or €40 here for pot
                                  being honest i dont think its a pl game anyway if u look at op he and the other guy thought 50 was fine so either they cant multiply and add or its nl

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                    being honest i dont think its a pl game anyway if u look at op he and the other guy thought 50 was fine so either they cant multiply and add or its nl
                                    well then is the limping situation changed,

                                    utg+1 limp for €10 as to 2 or 3 more then the €50 can be made also.

                                    God dam it op put more info in these threads

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                                      #19
                                      I dont think it was pot limit, i think it was nl and the 25 was the the 10 straddle and when the guy says raise he is raising 25 more which is 35. my two cents.
                                      i would be suprised also if the 50 bet was allowed
                                      Last edited by OasisKid; 07-06-11, 17:04.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                        I dont think it was pot limit, i think it was nl and the 25 was the the 10 straddle and when the guy says raise he is raising 25 more which is 35. my two cents.
                                        this +1, as JP ruled in a different thread the blinds (or straddle obv) are already part of the pot so I think if he just puts a €25 chip in it is only a raise to €35 as his only in for €10 of that pony in the straddle

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                          it cant be 35 if the bb folds the action has to go 3x5+10
                                          If it's pl the straddler can raise the total amount in the pot, which if sb calls and bb folds the total amount in the pot is 10+5+10=25, so he can raise it 25 more, making it 35 in total for anyone to play. If utg decides not to straddle but raise 1st in, the raise is 2x the last bet + pot, which is 2x5+2 = 12 making it 17 in total for anyone to play.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                                            If it's pl the straddler can raise the total amount in the pot, which if sb calls and bb folds the total amount in the pot is 10+5+10=25, so he can raise it 25 more, making it 35 in total for anyone to play. If utg decides not to straddle but raise 1st in, the raise is 2x the last bet + pot, which is 2x5+2 = 12 making it 17 in total for anyone to play.
                                            in pl u 3x the last bet not 2x

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                              in pl u 3x the last bet not 2x
                                              3x is the total bet, 2x is the amount of the raise.

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                                                #24
                                                ah lads cummon,imo its fairly blatent what the op is saying.The guy thinks the raise should only be 35 cos the guy has thrown out a 25 chip when hes only in for 10 at the minute.
                                                The raise is to 50 and theres no doubts about it,If it were pot limit the raise couldnt be 35,it could be 37 which is rounded up to 40.Although all this talk of being able to make it 35 in pot limit is ridic cos i genuinely think this is a NL game and the guy is just pissed off that hes limped for a 10er and doesnt now wanna call another 40 but feels he can justify callin another 25 but UL cos its a raise to 50

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                                                  #25
                                                  Ye could be right liz, the 25 chip in the straddle is only worth 10 though right, if so then 35 should be the max raise. tricky one

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                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                                    Ye could be right liz, the 25 chip in the straddle is only worth 10 though right, if so then 35 should be the max raise. tricky one
                                                    no its always a 50 raise because when he doesnt announce the raise and just throws the chip in then the raise automatically becomes the total of what hes thrown out,so for example if he threw out a 100 chip and left the 25 there then the raise is automatically 125 if he doesnt state otherwise before throwing it out

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                                                      #27
                                                      Is there any argument here for only allowing a min raise .
                                                      He has announced raise but not the amount , so while his intention is clearly to raise the amount is unclear ???

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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by liz:) View Post
                                                        no its always a 50 raise because when he doesnt announce the raise and just throws the chip in then the raise automatically becomes the total of what hes thrown out,so for example if he threw out a 100 chip and left the 25 there then the raise is automatically 125 if he doesnt state otherwise before throwing it out
                                                        fair enough

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                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                          Is there any argument here for only allowing a min raise .
                                                          He has announced raise but not the amount , so while his intention is clearly to raise the amount is unclear ???
                                                          no because he hasnt announced how much then the rules are that the raise is what he has out there,which is 50

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                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                            Is there any argument here for only allowing a min raise .
                                                            He has announced raise but not the amount , so while his intention is clearly to raise the amount is unclear ???
                                                            wel damo, no when its an oversized chip and the player just says raise then the raise is the full amount of the chip

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                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                                              wel damo, no when its an oversized chip and the player just says raise then the raise is the full amount of the chip
                                                              Clearly you have not met damo before!

                                                              If this says its a min raise its a min raise !

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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                                                Clearly you have not met damo before!

                                                                If this says its a min raise its a min raise !
                                                                We play together on a weekly basis and shane knows im a big softie anyway.

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                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                                                  wel damo, no when its an oversized chip and the player just says raise then the raise is the full amount of the chip
                                                                  If it was a once off thing then i would allow the raise, but if it was a thing that was continually happening by one or more players then you would have cause to believe this was angle shooting and should be penalised by only allowing a min raise . Yes/ No???

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                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                    If it was a once off thing then i would allow the raise, but if it was a thing that was continually happening by one or more players then you would have cause to believe this was angle shooting and should be penalised by only allowing a min raise . Yes/ No???
                                                                    If what was a once off thing??
                                                                    i doubt its angle shooting
                                                                    Last edited by OasisKid; 07-06-11, 19:03.

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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                      If it was a once off thing then i would allow the raise, but if it was a thing that was continually happening by one or more players then you would have cause to believe this was angle shooting and should be penalised by only allowing a min raise . Yes/ No???
                                                                      its completely standard practice everywhere,its the same in tournaments.example the blinds are 150 and 300 and the bb has a 500 chip out for his blind,action gets to him and he says raise and throws out another 500 chip,his raise is to 1000 and everybody knows his raise is 1000 because hes said raise and hasnt declared how much then its automatically a raise to 1k

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                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                                                                        If what was a once off thing??i doubt its angle shooting
                                                                        By throwing out a large denomination chip and not announcing the amount of the raise , he could be doing this just to look for a reaction from his apponent and then announce the amount to suit a favourable or unfavourable reaction.
                                                                        This = Angleshooting

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by liz:) View Post
                                                                          ah lads cummon,imo its fairly blatent what the op is saying.The guy thinks the raise should only be 35 cos the guy has thrown out a 25 chip when hes only in for 10 at the minute.
                                                                          The raise is to 50 and theres no doubts about it,If it were pot limit the raise couldnt be 35,it could be 37 which is rounded up to 40.Although all this talk of being able to make it 35 in pot limit is ridic cos i genuinely think this is a NL game and the guy is just pissed off that hes limped for a 10er and doesnt now wanna call another 40 but feels he can justify callin another 25 but UL cos its a raise to 50
                                                                          of course there is doubt as there was at the time and is obvious from the thread??? If I was in this situation and wanted to raise to 50 I would pick up the 25 already in there and throw both chips out there, then no discussion.

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                            By throwing out a large denomination chip and not announcing the amount of the raise , he could be doing this just to look for a reaction from his apponent and then announce the amount to suit a favourable or unfavourable reaction.
                                                                            This = Angleshooting
                                                                            If the player throws the chip in and doesnt state the amount but says raise its for the max value of the chip. it would not be possible to look for a reaction because he has to declare the amount or jst say raise.

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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                              By throwing out a large denomination chip and not announcing the amount of the raise , he could be doing this just to look for a reaction from his apponent and then announce the amount to suit a favourable or unfavourable reaction.
                                                                              This = Angleshooting
                                                                              you simply cant do that.once the chip is out its a raise to that amount,you cant throw out the chip then decide afterwards what you want to raise to.This might sound ignorant but seriously,you all play poker and you know what a string bet is and damo what your describing is something similar.I really cant understand how some people cant see that this is a blatent raise to 50euro,end of.its the most simplest thing in the world,he says raise and has 50 out infront of him.

                                                                              its the exact same as a tournament when you throw a 1k chip out and say raise,its a raise to 1k.im sorry if i sound condescending or anything but i genuinely cant see how anybody could ever think anything different here.

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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                                                                of course there is doubt as there was at the time and is obvious from the thread??? If I was in this situation and wanted to raise to 50 I would pick up the 25 already in there and throw both chips out there, then no discussion.
                                                                                im gonna sound like a cow now but whoever was at the table and thought the raise was only allowed be 35euro is a simpleton.I understand what your saying about picking up both chips and so on but seriously theres not a dealer in the country that wouldnt announce that as a raise to 50euro...reason being is because thats exactly what it is

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  sorry i should have stated it was a no limit game

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Hi Guys,

                                                                                    I haven't read the full thread so if I'm missing some points I'll address it again.

                                                                                    In the OP it states that the player announced raise and then throw the 2nd €25 chip into the pot.

                                                                                    This is a different situation to the one in the other thread that donkathon linked. In that thread the example was the SB placed a single large chip into the pot on top of their SB without announcing their intention. So it was just a call.

                                                                                    Here the player has clearly announced raise!! If no amount is annouced it is a raise of the full amount i.e. €50 in this case.

                                                                                    If it was PL it might be slightly smaller then €50, min would have been €42 assuming the BB was the only caller of €10.
                                                                                    3 x BB's €10 plus the pot (SB's €2 and straddles €10). But I'm guessing the €50 would have been ok (100% ok in NL).
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                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                                                                      utg+1 limps for €10, folds back to straddle he can make it 3 x the €10 limp = the sb/bb = €37 but as you said most places round it off so I think it would be rounded to either €35 or €40 here for pot
                                                                                      If the UTG limps and the rest fold he can make it $37

                                                                                      But if only SB calls the $10, then he can make it $35 (3 x $10 + $5)

                                                                                      Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                      If it was PL it might be slightly smaller then €50, min would have been €42 assuming the BB was the only caller of €10.
                                                                                      3 x BB's €10 plus the pot (SB's €2 and straddles €10). But I'm guessing the €50 would have been ok (100% ok in NL).
                                                                                      Think you made a slight mistake here JP. You are counting the straddle twice.
                                                                                      The reason its 3x the last bet it because its, Bet + Call on top of the Bet. Here the straddle is the original bet, so you don't count it again.

                                                                                      To prove this, when it gets back to the straddle, the pot is $22 (straddle + call + sb). so he can raise $22 on top of $10, ie $32 (3 x $10 + $2). Total pot after the call on top of the bet is the actually pot limit rule, 3 x last bet is just a handy way of working it out, sometimes it gets added up wrong when blinds (or straddles) are involved.



                                                                                      Oh, and agree that it's a $50 raise here. Intentions were pretty clear.
                                                                                      Last edited by Mellor; 08-06-11, 02:39.

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