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    kk live 5 handed

    Small Live 50e F.O. 3 paid 5 left
    Avg stack 20,000
    Blinds 400/800 (no ante)
    BB is a an erraitc chinese player who to say is bad is a woeful understatement!
    SB is a decent, tight ABC player who've I've played a lot with


    2 folds...
    hero Hero (18k) btn calls with KK800
    viallin (22k) calls 400
    BB (40k) checks

    might as well say at this juncture that the limp was to keep BB in the hand at all costs as I felt post-flop was the only way I'd get in agianst him and I know sb wont be making any crazy moves post-flop..(maybe still a mistake) also I'd raised 2x my last two buttons and taken blinds

    flop 9 7 3

    villain checks,
    bb checks,
    hero bets 1800

    villain raises to 4200
    bb folds
    hero calls

    turn 5
    villain bets 5,500

    hero...???

    against a player i dont know i prob jam flop, nut in this spot I know villain likes is hand..nut flush draw at worst, two pair likely imo, am I ahead of enough of his "i'm snapping a shove"range here to continue
    Last edited by Kie Diddy; 31-03-12, 00:39. Reason: post 1

    #2
    Definetly don't put the result of the hand in the post.

    I think the button limp is inexcusable. Just raise. You don't want the SB and the BB getting a free look with any 4 cards. At least make them pay for the privilege of cracking your kings. As played, get them in on the flop

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
      Definetly don't put the result of the hand in the post.

      I think the button limp is inexcusable. Just raise. You don't want the SB and the BB getting a free look with any 4 cards. At least make them pay for the privilege of cracking your kings. As played, get them in on the flop
      +1, i havnt looked at the result yet but limping the button wt KK is just a terrible play, theres no excuse for limping at this stage with any hand never mind a premium hand on the button.

      edit to say i jam the flop as played. if u decide to limp with a hand as strong as KK in this position and see a flop like that surely you have the intention of getting it in.If not what was your plan when u limped, what kind of board would you be comfortable getting it in on??
      Last edited by mfoleyAA; 31-03-12, 00:42.

      Comment


        #4
        okay i put the hand up for advice so im trying to be an excuse monkey but i felle like if we play eeverything as we're "supposed" toat thu sstage we lose loads of opputunity's to stack awful players like the bb.. the standard of the tourney is low, lots of limping all the way through, and my mins had been getting way too much respect...hence the limp obv this not my or anyones normal line

        Comment


          #5
          tbh i think i fold now but agree with not limping pre also if we are to limp here you have to be able to make the laydown aswell.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
            okay i put the hand up for advice so im trying to be an excuse monkey but i felle like if we play eeverything as we're "supposed" toat thu sstage we lose loads of opputunity's to stack awful players like the bb.. the standard of the tourney is low, lots of limping all the way through, and my mins had been getting way too much respect...hence the limp obv this not my or anyones normal line
            When you flat his 4200 bet, what's your intention on the turn?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
              okay i put the hand up for advice so im trying to be an excuse monkey but i felle like if we play eeverything as we're "supposed" toat thu sstage we lose loads of opputunity's to stack awful players like the bb.. the standard of the tourney is low, lots of limping all the way through, and my mins had been getting way too much respect...hence the limp obv this not my or anyones normal line
              If the bb is as awfull as you are saying he will most likely call a min raise from the button. To be honest there are a load of preconceptions in poker that we 'should' do certain things in certain positions, and a lot of aspects get overlooked, but in this situation you have to continue with your normal line imo. Keep min raising and taking down pots,if they are giving you too much respect keep it that way,and eventually you will get a spot to get it in with the goods,like this spot!!!
              Last edited by mfoleyAA; 31-03-12, 01:49.

              Comment


                #8
                Whats ur table image like? if you have been opening abit no reason to change that as there prob expecting a raise and you want to build the pot just gets too hard on the flop at least if u raise you can eliminate alot of two pair hands. From my exp playing small games at the local casino my image is ruined from being aggro spew monkey "oh hes raising again" "I knew he had nothing" this bs I just feel the urge to raise limpers lol. anyway as played get in on flop and I prob sigh fold turn he more than likely has a 9x spades type hand or obv 2 pair

                Comment


                  #9
                  i hate your limp with KK on the button here... in fact i cant make any kind of reason for it... would you limp/raise AK/AQ/AJ or even hands like 67s or QJs... as played just get it in and bemoan your bad play when he shows you 2 pair

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
                    okay i put the hand up for advice so im trying to be an excuse monkey but i felle like if we play eeverything as we're "supposed" toat thu sstage we lose loads of opputunity's to stack awful players like the bb.. the standard of the tourney is low, lots of limping all the way through, and my mins had been getting way too much respect...hence the limp obv this not my or anyones normal line
                    The fact that the BB is awful makes limping worse and certainly doesn't excuse a non standard line.
                    Because you got through before also is another reason to min raise you button again.
                    It's jam or fold flop IMO. Calling flop, folding turn is the worse option

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Funnily enough, your reasoning for limping is why you should have raised - the previous two orbits you min raised and took the blinds. Now you have the ideal hand to raise again and hope that this time one or both of them will play back at you.

                      Once you've called the villians flop raise to 4k, and he leads out 5k on turn, both you and he can narrow your ranges significantly. Assuming he had around the average at start of hand also, on the turn he's put in around half his stack.

                      At best but least likely, he's on a flush draw. Most likely imo he's hit two pair, or the third possibility is that he too was 'trapping' and has a pocket pair or a set. [i didn't see the result you posted earlier so i'm just guessing based on your description of villian].

                      You're ahead of his flush draws. You're ahead of most pocket pairs. Against two pair you still have outs. Given the strength of your hand I think you have to push now.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If you raised your 2 previous buttons as steals, then you should be raising again and hope one of them plays back at you from the blinds!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Limp is awful for the reasons mentioned above, the only reason I could justify a limp in this spot is if I feel I am facing complete aggro monkeys who will raise from the blinds and I can reraise or jam. As played on the turn I think u have to call and hope u are up against a draw...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Raise pre-flop. FFS. You should be raising every button vs these donks and giving them the chance to make huge mistakes(such as playing OOP with bad hands, which is what they'll do).

                            Build the pot pre-flop, so what if you only win the blinds. Shame but so often at least one of them will call.

                            I get it in on the flop. You're good here so so so often.

                            As played I call the turn and re-evaluate on the river. About a pot sized bet left to play, I probably fold to a shove on any scary rivers. I'd probably make a crying call on blanks, i'd expect to be beat fairly often but there's enough busted draws/A9 type hands to make it profitable I think.

                            But you really really should have raised pre-flop. Especially if you've been active.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                              When you flat his 4200 bet, what's your intention on the turn?
                              cheers, have to agree in retrospect with limping being terrabad, i obv didnt think it thru rite cos it was stupid for several reasons most of which have been outlined already..

                              however, post flop- while i agree calling the flop raise and folding the turn (which is what i did btw) is a very bad option generally, iknow the villainds game so well htat i knew he would almost never lead with jus a flush draw and how/speed he bet on theturn (if he bet) i knew would give me lots of info..hence when a nit leads i decied to get out with my 12bb-a stack with plenty of FE.
                              against anyobe else at the table i reraise-shove the flop 100%

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Kie Diddy View Post
                                I'd raised 2x my last two buttons and taken blinds
                                Absolutely all the more reason to 2x it again.

                                I don't think you can call the flop to fold the turn. I think as played you either have to jam the flop or fold.

                                Whole hand is bad really.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  If you want to get tricky in that spot, instead of flatting pre, shove pre
                                  One of these days I am either going to quit poker or learn how to play the damn game

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    It's pretty difficult to butcher a hand as badly as you've done here lol. r/c pre, r/c flop, shove turn, you have an overpair 20BB deep eff with a ton of worse draws/pairs out there, don't over-think hands vs players who do retarded shit all the time
                                    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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