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    Opinions please

    Three day tournament, down to third day, down to last three tables, everyone already in the money and one of the players does not show up.

    With regard to his chips what is the story

    Should he be just blinded away and/or should there be a different ruling if they know he definitely will not be there.

    Wouldn't mind the views of some TD's here.

    #2
    Blinded away....

    Simple as that....show must go on regardless...maybe at ft there might be a stall of some sort but def not 3 tables out

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by fumyname View Post
      Blinded away....

      Simple as that....show must go on regardless...maybe at ft there might be a stall of some sort but def not 3 tables out

      not asking in relation to stalling the game, what should happen the players chips, should they be removed from play or should they be blinded away

      Comment


        #4
        Will obviously be a big advantage to the players to his immediate right if he is just blinded away

        What i like to see happen, is if he is not back by 2 rounds of the table, he puts 1 BB into the pot every hand from that point until he is blinded out. Don't think that his chips deserve to be taken off the table at any stage because he has a right to try and clinb up the money ladder

        Comment


          #5
          I would leave his chips in play until the final table bubble had been reached , at that point his chips would be removed from play and awarded that position.

          Comment


            #6
            In the 1990 WSOP main event Stuey Ungar was chip leader going into the third & last day & never showed as he was found unconscious in his hotel room.

            He was blinded away & because of his lead finished 9th. I'm not sure if he was found before, during or after the event.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
              I would leave his chips in play until the final table bubble had been reached , at that point his chips would be removed from play and awarded that position.
              Why would you do this?? He paid his entry..them chips are are his/hers u cant just take them away...

              He would be blinded away till elimination...think a td should clarify it

              having someone not seated and stacks in play is actually more of a hindrance then advantage...u defend and re steal lighter knowing there's a vacant bb. I know a leading Irish pro who found a vacant empty seat a massive prob in Wsop and blamed that for him losing a lot if his chips.

              Comment


                #8
                It does mean a huge disadvantage to the player to his immediate right & also his button as MP & earlier will be trying to steal a vacant BB

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think they should be left out and the game continues.
                  "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Blinded away IMO, he's entitled to fold every hand if he wants, shouldn't necessarily need to be at the table to do so.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      What about if he has informed the powers that be that he will defo not be turning up for the final day?
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by westlife View Post
                        What about if he has informed the powers that be that he will defo not be turning up for the final day?
                        Then he's done the courtesy of not making people worry about him.

                        Finding some way to reduce his ability to move up the pay ladder seems a fairly mean-spirited reward.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by westlife View Post
                          What about if he has informed the powers that be that he will defo not be turning up for the final day?


                          Yes, that was part of my opening post.

                          Should there be a different ruling if they know for definite he will not be there or should it be the same rule & if so what should that be

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Just been chatting briefly with Nick O Hara who had made the ruling as he is working this event and is particularly busy will get back to it when he has a moment.
                            "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                              Just been chatting briefly with Nick O Hara who had made the ruling as he is working this event and is particularly busy will get back to it when he has a moment.

                              This was not/is not intended to be a specific question to a specific tournament.

                              This is a general question & the ruling should apply to all tournaments.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                If the player informs you he will 100% not return to the game the chips should be removed from play and receive that finishing place and money.

                                As leaving the chips in play would result in an unnatural situation on the table which would be a big advantage to most players on that table the expection would be the players in the blinds with the dead stack as they would have their blinds attacked alot lighter.
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                                  #17
                                  There's a total disincentive to inform the staff if you're not coming back so - seems counter-intuitive.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                    If the player informs you he will 100% not return to the game the chips should be removed from play and receive that finishing place and money.

                                    As leaving the chips in play would result in an unnatural situation on the table which would be a big advantage to most players on that table the expection would be the players in the blinds with the dead stack as they would have their blinds attacked alot lighter.
                                    How did Stuey Ungar, chip leader going into the final day of the 1990 WSOP main event get blinded away into 9th place then.

                                    Couldn't a player also just decide not to play a hand & leave the table for a few hours, same difference. Surely if a player has paid their entry, played for two days, about 17 hours their chips should be their own do do / play how they want to.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I think thats a rule that JP has been implementing for quite a while. I remember the team event 2 years ago when a player (it may have been DeadParrot) was building up a big stack but had to leave the tournie and his stack was taken off the table. Not a fan of the rule myself tbh

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by kakak1 View Post
                                        How did Stuey Ungar, chip leader going into the final day of the 1990 WSOP main event get blinded away into 9th place then.

                                        Couldn't a player also just decide not to play a hand & leave the table for a few hours, same difference. Surely if a player has paid their entry, played for two days, about 17 hours their chips should be their own do do / play how they want to.
                                        I'm guessing that their was no offical rule for it at the time as it probably never happened before.

                                        I remember it been discussed when the WSOP first introduced the "November 9" and what would happen if someone died before the final table. If I recall correctly the chips would be removed from play, the players family would receive 9th place and they would also recieve some token amount to be decided at a later date.
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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                          If the player informs you he will 100% not return to the game the chips should be removed from play and receive that finishing place and money.

                                          As leaving the chips in play would result in an unnatural situation on the table which would be a big advantage to most players on that table the expection would be the players in the blinds with the dead stack as they would have their blinds attacked alot lighter.
                                          Seems unfair to me.What if by some miracle the player comes back in 30 minutes or changes his mind and wants to continue?
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                                            #22
                                            I suppose there has to be some kind of rule. If there was 2 tables of 5, say at the WSOP main event, next person to go out misses out on the November 9. 5 people from 1 table leave the room without intending to return, then what?

                                            SPOILER

                                            I know they play a 10-handed table at the final stages of the ME but it's a theory question

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by kakak1 View Post
                                              How did Stuey Ungar, chip leader going into the final day of the 1990 WSOP main event get blinded away into 9th place then.

                                              Couldn't a player also just decide not to play a hand & leave the table for a few hours, same difference. Surely if a player has paid their entry, played for two days, about 17 hours their chips should be their own do do / play how they want to.
                                              That was over 20 years ago and poker has come along way regards rules and rulings, after speaking with JP and Nick more so about this ruling I can understand why it would be done but wouldnt be the biggest fan in the world of it.
                                              "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Icarus152 View Post
                                                Seems unfair to me.What if by some miracle the player comes back in 30 minutes or changes his mind and wants to continue?
                                                If a player tells you he is 100% not going to return I don't think he's going to return in 30 mins. At the 1st year of my Masters a player came up to me very upset at the start of the 2nd level.

                                                His brother died and he had to leave, he was up about 2k in chips. I removed his stack and gave him a refund.

                                                If a player tells me that they have go and are not sure if they will return, I'll leave their chips in play and agree a time period for the player to contact me with an update before I remove his chips from play.
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                                                  #25
                                                  Now I know that if I ever have to leave a tourney for whatever reason, I'm telling nobody.
                                                  Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                    Now I know that if I ever have to leave a tourney for whatever reason, I'm telling nobody.
                                                    This won't work either....

                                                    The rule as it is stated is should a player not return after a reasonable lenght of time. If your (TD or organizer) not able to make contact with said player. Removing the players stack is an option.

                                                    You'd be much better to inform the organizer that there is a problem and agree a time period for you to get in touch with them with an update.
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                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                      This won't work either....

                                                      The rule as it is stated is should a player not return after a reasonable lenght of time. If your (TD or organizer) not able to make contact with said player. Removing the players stack is an option.

                                                      You'd be much better to inform the organizer that there is a problem and agree a time period for you to get in touch with them with an update.
                                                      If you cannot make contact with the player I'd be very slow if I were you to take this action unless it is clearly stated in your rules.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Anyway just to close off this thread. I was the player involved in Clane who could not return on the Sunday when we were down to 25 players.

                                                        Nick, who I have to say, I thought was one of if not the best TD's I have played under made contact with me & once I told him I would not be returning informed me my chips would be taken out of play. At the time I accepted his ruling & did not have a problem with it.

                                                        It was only when others were discussing the matter with me not one other person agreed with the ruling. For future reference I think this should be put in as a rule so everyone knows where they stand.

                                                        If the rule is as stated by JP we can all then say we might / will be back....

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Play starts in the morning at 10, I have to go to my fathers funeral but I'll be back at 5 pm - ruling?

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Hi All,

                                                            I understand that the original poster in this thread is seeking opinions regarding chips in play belong to a player who has stated they cannot return for play on day 3.

                                                            If a player has stated to a TD that they will 100% definately not be returning to the remainder of the tournament then their chips will be removed from play and assume the position and prize at the time of removal.

                                                            Reasons for this include...

                                                            1) Every time that stack pays a big blind the player seated to it's right pays a small blind. This big blind will be constantly attacked all day by other players on the table. This is a big disadvantage to the player right of the big blind who subsequently has their small blind attacked all day. Would you like to sit next to this stack and have your small blind attacked all day???

                                                            2) Other players on the table, especially those in late position to that BB have a big advantage because they get to raise against an undefended big blind all day...thus making it easier to steel blinds and antes. Especially if there are more than one tables in play.

                                                            So some players on the table recieve a big advantage while other players on the table recieve a big disadvantage...this can't happen!

                                                            3) All the players who are seated at the table will get involved in a certain amount of hands... This is the nature of the game. Every time a player puts chips into a pot they risk loosing them. A player who does not show up for an entire day is not exposed to this risk. This is part of the game. I know people may argue that a player is entitled to fold all day but that is not the reality or the nature of the game.


                                                            I would like to say that I spoke with the gentleman in question just minutes before the tournament was about to resume play for day 3. I explained the situation to him and he was an absolute gentleman in his response. Thank you.

                                                            Any further comments welcome...

                                                            Kind Regards;

                                                            Nick O'Hara
                                                            Last edited by Vegas Events; 10-02-11, 18:39.
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                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Vegas Nights View Post
                                                              1) Every time that stack pays a big blind the player seated to it's right pays a small blind. This big blind will be constantly attacked all day by other players on the table. This is a big disadvantage to the player right of the big blind who subsequently has their small blind attacked all day. Would you like to sit next to this stack and have your small blind attacked all day???
                                                              I'd gladly take this seat in every tournament i play Nick. If people are raising light, then 3betting light is even better. It's extra juicy when you have a hand

                                                              2) Other players on the table, especially those in late position to that BB have a big advantage because they get to raise against an undefended big blind all day...thus making it easier to steel blinds and antes. Especially if there are more than one tables in play.
                                                              As above

                                                              So some players on the table recieve a big advantage while other players on the table recieve a big disadvantage...this can't happen!

                                                              3) All the players who are seated at the table will get involved in a certain amount of hands... This is the nature of the game. Every time a player puts chips into a pot they risk loosing them. A player who does not show up for an entire day is not exposed to this risk. This is part of the game. I know people may argue that a player is entitled to fold all day but that is not the reality or the nature of the game.
                                                              I still think it's hugely unfair to remove a players chips from the tournament once he has paid his entry fee. At what stage do you take his chips away. What if you're playign hand for hand? Do you wait till someone gets knocked out so he gets paid, or do you remove him therefore moving everyone up 1 place. What if it's a money jump? There's too many variable there imo.

                                                              Whats wrong with the leaving the stack at the table for 2 orbits, and if he's still not back, put 1 BB extra from his stack into every pot. Sure the pot will be a little bit bigger but no player would gain any extra advantage over anyone else, and the player would still have a chance to move up money places.

                                                              I still think i'd prefer to just leave the the stack at the table. If happens for 3/4 levels at the start of a lot of tournaments where they put an extra stack in seat 10. If my chips were removed, i'd be expecting a refund at least. Would be a nightmare if i was delayed due to whatever reason, didn't have my phone and broke my bollox getting taxi's and whatnot trying to get there only to find out my stack has been removed.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Vegas Nights View Post
                                                                Hi All,

                                                                I understand that the original poster in this thread is seeking opinions regarding chips in play belong to a player who has stated they cannot return for play on day 3.

                                                                If a player has stated to a TD that they will 100% definately not be returning to the remainder of the tournament then their chips will be removed from play and assume the position and prize at the time of removal.

                                                                Reasons for this include...

                                                                1) Every time that stack pays a big blind the player seated to it's right pays a small blind. This big blind will be constantly attacked all day by other players on the table. This is a big disadvantage to the player right of the big blind who subsequently has their small blind attacked all day. Would you like to sit next to this stack and have your small blind attacked all day???

                                                                2) Other players on the table, especially those in late position to that BB have a big advantage because they get to raise against an undefended big blind all day...thus making it easier to steel blinds and antes. Especially if there are more than one tables in play.

                                                                So some players on the table recieve a big advantage while other players on the table recieve a big disadvantage...this can't happen!
                                                                This sounds logical, but actually isn't an argument at all. All of those points (which are all basically the same point) could be made if a really tight player player got moved to a table. Is it fair that I get to steal his blind all day?

                                                                I'm not arguing one way or the other, but the above is not an argument

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  This happened to me at one of JP's games.

                                                                  It was a money added game which would normally finish at 6.30/7.00pm but numbers swelled to double normal due to money added.

                                                                  Had dinner booked with in-laws for 8pm (wasn't supposed to be pokering) so had to leave while 6 handed & big chip leader due to taking on mad races in an attempt to finish game quickly.

                                                                  Halfway through dinner went outside for cig & saw a few missed calls from JP/Christine so returned calls to be told I had finished 3rd.

                                                                  Was told afterwards if I had informed them when I left I wasn't coming back they would have been removed there & then to finish 6th.

                                                                  I assumed I would just be blinded out but there was a difference of a few hundred euro between 6th & 3rd, not a huge game but still.

                                                                  So, if u were in the money, would people say anything if u knew u weren't coming back (having seen the above rulings) or leave & blag it out as long as you could to move up the payladder ??????
                                                                  Last edited by Dice75; 10-02-11, 20:04.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hi Guys,

                                                                    Firstly as TD our number one priority is to protect the best interest of the game and fairness to all players still in the tournament.

                                                                    To answer a few questions in the last few post...

                                                                    I think there is a big difference between a dead stack left out in seat 10 at the start of the tournament (I personally don't like leaving dead stack's out and would prefer to deduct 1 round of blinds and antes for every 20 mins that a player is late, give this amount to the dealer and get them to post 1 BB each hand until it's gone) when everybody is 200BB's deep to a dead stack deep into the tournament when the blinds and antes have increased.

                                                                    Any table that has a dead stack deep into the tournament (for a prolonged period of time) will be at a hugh advantage over all other tables and that advantage increases as the blinds increase and the bigger the dead stack is. This is an unusual and unnatural situation in tournament poker.

                                                                    To answer Tony's question of posting 1 BB each hand after 2 orbits, I believe that you are now increasing the speed at which the players on that table get the advantage. Players on other tables in the tournament have less of a chance of getting moved to that table (when balancing) should players be knocked out of that table.

                                                                    Lets take this rule to an extreme, what if come back from a break and notice that one table only has 2 players there. As the remaining 7 players who were all French somehow managed to get their dates wrong and had to leave to get their flight back home. Should their stacks be left on the table for the 2 players to gain a massive advantage over each and every other player in the tournament or should we remove their stacks and break the table?
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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                      I think thats a rule that JP has been implementing for quite a while. I remember the team event 2 years ago when a player (it may have been DeadParrot) was building up a big stack but had to leave the tournie and his stack was taken off the table. Not a fan of the rule myself tbh
                                                                      yep, got called away as the missus was taken into hospital.
                                                                      Was a little peeved at the ruling after the fact, didnt care too much at the time.
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                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                        yep, got called away as the missus was taken into hospital.
                                                                        Was a little peeved at the ruling after the fact, didnt care too much at the time.

                                                                        exactly my sentiments as everyone was saying the chips should have been left in play.

                                                                        However in fairness there are arguments for both sides......................best thing is tell them you will be back

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          If you're gonna remove the chips from play, why can't you remove them from play but leave them on the table and the dealer removes sb and bb value each orbit.

                                                                          Leaves it open for the guy to return and takes away all the negative dynamics.
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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Lazare View Post
                                                                            If you're gonna remove the chips from play, why can't you remove them from play but leave them on the table and the dealer removes sb and bb value each orbit.

                                                                            Leaves it open for the guy to return and takes away all the negative dynamics.
                                                                            I think I answered this in my last post.

                                                                            The only possible option that I can think of that won't result in any one table having a huge advantage over all other tables. Would be to post 1 ante into each table, each hand until the stack is gone.

                                                                            But this is way too time consuming and is just not practical when your trying your run a festival smoothly.
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