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    Irish Poker, Rule Book.

    I heard carfax saying this should be done by the end of March. Has anyone got any idea when it will be finished and avaliable to the general public?

    #2
    Originally posted by curleywurley View Post
    I heard carfax saying this should be done by the end of March. Has anyone got any idea when it will be finished and avaliable to the general public?
    With everything that has been going on (different TD's away in Riga, Irish Open going on etc) there have been some delays. It will be done very shortly though (don't forget the lads have been working on this rule-book extensively, going through every scenario you could imagine, so it is very labour & time intensive).

    Stephen.
    International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

    The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

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      #3
      Any news?
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        #4
        Hi All,

        It has proved extremely difficult to get all TD's involved in this together at the same time (as most work overseas regularly).

        What I am posting here are the rules for the IPO 2010 (they are also very similar to JP's current rules), which basically encompass the Irish Standardised Rules that were discussed at length by all TD's involved.

        The basic changes we are suggesting are:
        1. The min-raise rule should be "Americanised" (i.e. the minimum raise should be double the last raise and not double the last bet).

        2. String-betting enforcement needs to be relaxed in the sense that as long as a bet is in one forward motion it can stand (see rule 10C)

        3. Dealer kills a hand by accident - this is most definitely the responsibility of the player in question and players are not entitled to any redress (apart from one exception listed in rule 28).

        If any TD's need advice on any rules and their interpretation please don't hesitate to get in touch [ stephen (at) pokerireland.ie ] .... We do genuinely hope that all organisers will take on board these rules so that we can have the same game played in every area of the country.

        Cheers,
        Stephen.

        __________________________________________________ ________________________


        Irish Standardised Poker Rules


        1 Floor People
        Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floor person’s decision is final.

        2 Chip Race
        When it is time to colour-up chips they will be raced off with a maximum of one chip going to any player. The chip race will always start in the No.1 seat. A player cannot be raced out of a tournament: a player who loses his or her remaining chip(s) in a chip race will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play. Players are encouraged to witness the chip race.

        3 Odd Chips
        The odd chip(s) will go to the high hand. In flop, games when there are two or more high hands or two or more low hands the odd chip(s) will go to the left of the button. In stud games, the odd chip will go to the high card by suit. However when hands have identical value (e.g., a wheel in Omaha/8) the pot will be split as evenly as possible.

        4 Side Pots
        Each side pot will be split separately

        5 Calling for a Clock
        Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given a maximum of one minute to make a decision (any player at the table may call clock but the dealer may not).
        If action has not been taken before time expires, there will be a 10-second countdown. If a player has not acted by the time the countdown is over, the player’s hand will be dead.

        6 Dead Button
        Tournament play will use a dead button.

        7 Penalties and Disqualification
        A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of soft play, abuse, or disruptive behaviour. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings and “missed hand” penalties.
        A missed hand penalty will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, who is at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty; for the period of the penalty the offender shall remain away from the table. Tournament staff can assess one-, two-, three-, or four-round penalties or disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his or her chips removed from play. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties.

        8 At Your Seat
        A player must be at his or her seat by the time the first player has been dealt their first card in order to have a live hand. Players must be at their seat to call time.

        9 Face Up
        All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

        10 (a) Under-Raise:
        If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

        10 (b) Minimum-Raise:
        The minimum raise will be double the previous raise and not double the previous bet.

        10 (c) Methods of Raising (String-Betting):
        A raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one or more continuous motion(s) without going back towards the players stack; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion.
        It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear and dealers will be responsible for calling string raises.

        11 Oversized Chip
        A single oversized chip will be considered a call if the player does not announce a raise. If a player puts an oversized chip into the pot and states raise but does not state the amount, the raise will be the maximum allowable up to the size of that chip. After the flop, an initial bet of a single oversized chip without comment will constitute the size of the bet. To make a raise with a single oversized chip a verbal declaration must be made before the chip hits the table surface.

        12 No Disclosure
        Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
        1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands
        2. Advise or criticize play before the action is complete
        3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled
        The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

        13 Random Seats
        Tournament seats will be randomly assigned.

        14 Official Language:
        The English-only rule will be enforced at the International Poker Open 2010 during the play of hands. Players may not speak any other language while cards are out.

        15 Communication
        The dealer can fold a players hand if they are using a mobile phone at the table.

        16 Deck Changes
        Players may not ask for deck changes.


        17 New Limits
        When time has elapsed in a round and a new level is announced by a member of the tournament staff, the new level applies to the next hand. A hand begins with the first riffle.

        18 Re-buys
        A player may not miss a hand. If a player announces the intent to re-buy before a new hand begins, that player is playing chips behind and is obligated to make the re-buy.

        19 Higher
        Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible at all times.

        20 Declarations
        Verbal declarations as to the content of a player’s hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

        21 Rabbit Hunting
        No rabbit hunting is allowed.

        22 Dodging Blinds
        A player who intentionally dodges (a) blind(s) when moving from a broken table will incur a penalty.

        23 Chips Visible
        All chips must be visible at all times. Players may not hold or transport tournament chips in any manner that takes them out of view. A player who does so will forfeit the chips and will face disqualification. The forfeited chips will be taken out of play.

        24 Breaking Tables
        Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

        25 Balancing Tables
        In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. The table from which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. Play will halt on any table that is three or more players short.

        26 Raises
        There is no cap on the number of raises in no-limit games. A raise must be at least the size of the previous raise. In limit events there will be a limit to raises even when heads-up until the tournament is down to two players; the house limit will apply.









        27 Misdeals
        Exposure of one of the first two cards dealt is a misdeal. Players may be dealt two consecutive cards on the button. The following situations may also be cause for a misdeal, if during the initial deal:
        A) Two or more extra cards have been dealt.
        B) The first card dealt was to the wrong position.
        C) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
        D) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to hand.
        A misdeal can only be declared if significant action has not occurred. Significant action is considered: three folds, three checks, two calls, a fold and a call, or a bet and a raise or a call and a fold.


        28 Unprotected Hands:
        If a dealer kills an unprotected hand, the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.

        29 Killing Winning Hand
        Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

        30 Verbal Declarations
        Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Action out of turn may be binding.

        31 Exposing Cards
        A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

        32 Ethical Play
        Poker is an individual game. Soft play will result in penalties, which may include forfeiture of chips and/or disqualification. Chip dumping will result in disqualification.

        33 Pot Size
        Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

        34 Button in Heads-up
        When heads-up the small blind is on the button and acts first. When beginning heads-up play the button may need to be adjusted to ensure that no player takes the big blind twice in a row.

        35 Etiquette Violations
        Repeated etiquette violations will result in penalties. Examples include unnecessarily touching other players cards or chips, delay of the game, and excessive chatter. Players are required to act in turn.

        36 Showdown
        At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud games, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.

        37 Action Pending
        Players must remain at the table if they still have action pending on a hand.

        38 Playing the Board
        A player must show both cards when playing the board in order to get part of the pot.

        39 Excessive Celebrations
        Excessive celebration through extended theatrics, inappropriate behavior, or physical actions, gestures, or conduct will be subject to penalty.

        40 End of Play
        Ten minutes prior to the end of days play for any event, a random card will be drawn to determine how many additional hands will be played. Playing cards 3-7 will be used and a random player will be asked to pick a card face down.
        International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

        The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

        Comment


          #5
          What are the rules re running the turn/river or just the river 2 or 3 times in the cash games?
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            #6
            Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
            What are the rules re running the turn/river or just the river 2 or 3 times in the cash games?
            That's something that players have an option on Chris (the rabbit hunting rule doesn't affect this if thats what you mean?).

            Please do fire out any quesions here guys as there were 1,001 things that we went through in terms of a TD's manual but I think it will be another year before we get this typed up.

            Stephen.
            International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

            The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

            Comment


              #7
              No Stephen, I mean if two players are all in on the flop then they can decide to run the turn & river twice. Pretty standard stuff in most card rooms but not allowed at some festivals.
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                #8
                Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                No Stephen, I mean if two players are all in on the flop then they can decide to run the turn & river twice. Pretty standard stuff in most card rooms but not allowed at some festivals.
                As regards standardised rules we are really looking at tournaments (and inparticular festivals) only at the moment. Every card club does currently have their own rules of course and we are hoping that eventually all rooms will subscribe to these rules (though realistically I think it is unlikely to happen in the near future, but long term I think we can work towards it).

                My own personal take on it (in order to encourage a standardisation) would be to have the option for running it twice in any game 5/10 or higher. This is something we can get clarification on at the next TD committee meeting. Will update here once we get a decision on it.
                International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

                The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

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                  #9
                  Great to see this up and running, good job lads.

                  We will be using the rules ourselves in Belfast. As you say Ste it'll take a while to tweak and get the finished result but fair play to you guys for putting the effort in.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hi carfax,

                    The rule on no disclosure, what excactly happens to a player who reveals the contents
                    of his live hand while hand is in progress example, 2 players in hand and one says i have set 4s and he actually has, is this player penalized?

                    Thanks

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by carfax View Post
                      As regards standardised rules we are really looking at tournaments (and inparticular festivals) only at the moment. Every card club does currently have their own rules of course and we are hoping that eventually all rooms will subscribe to these rules (though realistically I think it is unlikely to happen in the near future, but long term I think we can work towards it).

                      My own personal take on it (in order to encourage a standardisation) would be to have the option for running it twice in any game 5/10 or higher. This is something we can get clarification on at the next TD committee meeting. Will update here once we get a decision on it.

                      Why only 5/10 or higher?
                      Apart from the IO where does this game ever take place?

                      Don't want to derail the thread and I realize this is not a tournament question but this comes up a lot at the festivals and often causes an argument, often when there is a large amount of money at stake.
                      Last edited by BallymoreChris; 26-07-10, 15:11. Reason: Don't want to derail the ........
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                        #12
                        love some of these rules and i think carfax and 1 r 2 other TDS would be disgusted at the carry on at table i was playing about 3 weeks ago.

                        1 guy in the middle his 2 mates, 1 on each side of him and they all speaking Russian while discusssing what move would be best. all they were short was a laptop and googling best possible results + -.

                        when i totally objected and made it clear that it was no way to carry on at a table dealer just shrugged and said that he had been trying to tell them but they would not listen.

                        it was as if they were bulling him 3-1 and he was powerless. there were 2 other players kinda young and prob not used to playing live so they wer'nt of much voice.

                        i made a few loud noises and after 2 or 3 hands they gave up while giving me some dirty looks.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                          What are the rules re running the turn/river or just the river 2 or 3 times in the cash games?
                          Is this really an important issue? I assume its for 1/2 cash games your talkin.
                          i think your watching too much high stakes poker.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Steven,

                            I see the bet rule is being changed.



                            "1. The min-raise rule should be "Americanised" (i.e. the minimum raise should be double the last raise and not double the last bet)."

                            I think that means if the blinds are 200-400, and a player raises to 1050, the next player can reraise to 1700, (400+650+650). Is that right?

                            Is there a perticular reason why we are changing to the American system? As far as I know, 90%-95% of irish card rooms and festivals are using the normal "double the last bet" and not this double the last raise. I havent heard a clamour from players from it, so Im just wondering what is the thinking behind it. Im open to change of course if its for the better, but it just means changing the system in 90-95% of all the games happening across the country.
                            I dont think the bet/raising system we have been using all along caused much problems, well none that I know of anyway.

                            Connie

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by OasisKid View Post
                              Is this really an important issue? I assume its for 1/2 cash games your talkin.
                              i think your watching too much high stakes poker.
                              The only arguments I've seen at Festivals regarding rulings are in relation to this.
                              It stopped a € 2-5 plo game in Killarney, the €5-€5 plo left the Radisson hotel and went to a casino in Galway in Dec and it came up again in a €1-€2 plo game in the burlington this weekend. I've never seen a player object to it, but for some reason its not allowed sometimes.
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                                #16
                                Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                The only arguments I've seen at Festivals regarding rulings are in relation to this.
                                It stopped a € 2-5 plo game in Killarney, the €5-€5 plo left the Radisson hotel and went to a casino in Galway in Dec and it came up again in a €1-€2 plo game in the burlington this weekend. I've never seen a player object to it, but for some reason its not allowed sometimes.
                                Fair enuf, but i dont think the tds of ireland can make a rule for this
                                to be implemented at poker festivals for cash games,

                                I think its up
                                to the organizers of the festival, also considering the rake is crazy

                                at most festivals, the running it three times thing might annoy alot
                                of players.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Good stuff. Making a start brings you closer to the finish.

                                  A couple of points -

                                  (1) Is there a rule about acting out of turn? I played in a tournament where a player in consecutive hands let the play pass him (he hid his cards behind his stack) and then raised after players behind him had acted.

                                  (2) You might think about grouping the rulings into headings to make it easier to find a rule quickly.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by carfax View Post

                                    31 Exposing Cards
                                    A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.
                                    You realise youve left this one in again?

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                      Hi Steven,

                                      I see the bet rule is being changed.



                                      "1. The min-raise rule should be "Americanised" (i.e. the minimum raise should be double the last raise and not double the last bet)."

                                      I think that means if the blinds are 200-400, and a player raises to 1050, the next player can reraise to 1700, (400+650+650). Is that right?

                                      Is there a perticular reason why we are changing to the American system? As far as I know, 90%-95% of irish card rooms and festivals are using the normal "double the last bet" and not this double the last raise. I havent heard a clamour from players from it, so Im just wondering what is the thinking behind it. Im open to change of course if its for the better, but it just means changing the system in 90-95% of all the games happening across the country.
                                      I dont think the bet/raising system we have been using all along caused much problems, well none that I know of anyway.

                                      Connie
                                      Hi Connie,

                                      It was the opinion of the majority of TD's that this is how we should set out Irish rule on this one. The overall idea is to bring Irish poker rules in line with international rules, but not only that to do what we believe is in the best interest of the game overall.

                                      The TD's simply believed that this is in the best interest of the game (it does very rarely come up but it just gives players more raising options especially at bubble stage and at other times).

                                      Cheers,
                                      Stephen.
                                      International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

                                      The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                        Why only 5/10 or higher?
                                        Apart from the IO where does this game ever take place?

                                        Don't want to derail the thread and I realize this is not a tournament question but this comes up a lot at the festivals and often causes an argument, often when there is a large amount of money at stake.
                                        Hi Chris, I was just giving my opinion as a player (I'm just not mad about having to wait for a turn/ river to be run two/ three times if there is less than €1k in the middle)....

                                        I will bring it up with the TD's and see if we can look to set a general rule on it but I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed if players generally want to see it happen in games of all levels.

                                        Stephen.

                                        Will come back on the other issues raised later today.
                                        International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

                                        The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                          Hi Steven,

                                          I see the bet rule is being changed.



                                          "1. The min-raise rule should be "Americanised" (i.e. the minimum raise should be double the last raise and not double the last bet)."

                                          I think that means if the blinds are 200-400, and a player raises to 1050, the next player can reraise to 1700, (400+650+650). Is that right?

                                          Is there a perticular reason why we are changing to the American system? As far as I know, 90%-95% of irish card rooms and festivals are using the normal "double the last bet" and not this double the last raise. I havent heard a clamour from players from it, so Im just wondering what is the thinking behind it. Im open to change of course if its for the better, but it just means changing the system in 90-95% of all the games happening across the country.
                                          I dont think the bet/raising system we have been using all along caused much problems, well none that I know of anyway.

                                          Connie
                                          Hi Connie,

                                          To be fair this rule has been in place in a lot of Irish Festivals for a long time.

                                          It's also the rule which is been used in all UKIPT and EPT games. It's something that is noticed in particular when players travel from aboard to Ireland.
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                                            #22
                                            Couple of questions:

                                            36 Showdown
                                            At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud games, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.

                                            Regarding this rule, at a showdown, if the last player to show has had all players fold their cards do they then have to show both cards to win that pot? This is something players argue about on a regular basis in our game.



                                            10 (a) Under-Raise:
                                            If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

                                            Also this one, say a player makes an under-raise all in after a player has made a raise, if the next player then re-raises the original raise does the open raiser have the option to re-raise or can they just call.

                                            So say blinds in the above situation are 200/400, player a makes it 1200, player b goes all in for 1500, player c then re raises to 5000, can player a now re-raise player c?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Liono View Post
                                              Couple of questions:

                                              36 Showdown
                                              At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud games, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.

                                              Regarding this rule, at a showdown, if the last player to show has had all players fold their cards do they then have to show both cards to win that pot? This is something players argue about on a regular basis in our game.

                                              I don't have the TD notes in front of me here but as far as I remember the decision was that if players surrender a pot without showing cards then the last player with cards does not have to show.

                                              10 (a) Under-Raise:
                                              If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

                                              Also this one, say a player makes an under-raise all in after a player has made a raise, if the next player then re-raises the original raise does the open raiser have the option to re-raise or can they just call.

                                              So say blinds in the above situation are 200/400, player a makes it 1200, player b goes all in for 1500, player c then re raises to 5000, can player a now re-raise player c?
                                              Yes, all day long....The betting has been re-opened by player C here so player A does have the option to re-raise. If player C just calls the All-in from Player B then Player A can only call or fold as it is an under-raise.
                                              International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

                                              The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by kincsem View Post
                                                Good stuff. Making a start brings you closer to the finish.

                                                A couple of points -

                                                (1) Is there a rule about acting out of turn? I played in a tournament where a player in consecutive hands let the play pass him (he hid his cards behind his stack) and then raised after players behind him had acted.

                                                This player would get a warning and from there would most likely get a penalty of one round away from table, then two rounds etc.

                                                (2) You might think about grouping the rulings into headings to make it easier to find a rule quickly.
                                                That's right, we might

                                                Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                                                You realise youve left this one in again?
                                                Need to clarify rule 31 alright but its going to take a bit of time..
                                                Last edited by carfax; 27-07-10, 09:42.
                                                International Poker Open 2017 online satellites available on GG Poker. Visit www.internationalpokeropen.ie for more details.

                                                The IPO is one of Europe's biggest, longest running and most enjoyable live poker festivals with huge prize-pools every year.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                  The only arguments I've seen at Festivals regarding rulings are in relation to this.
                                                  It stopped a € 2-5 plo game in Killarney, the €5-€5 plo left the Radisson hotel and went to a casino in Galway in Dec and it came up again in a €1-€2 plo game in the burlington this weekend. I've never seen a player object to it, but for some reason its not allowed sometimes.
                                                  Hi Chris,

                                                  I personally don't have a problem with running it twice, I do have an issue with flipping their hands over and then deciding to take back 40% each and run it for the remaining 20% or something similar.

                                                  I didn't work UKIPT Killaraney but did work in Galway and I know this was discussed, I thought this was allowed in Galway, I know I allowed it anyway. So maybe there was some sort of breakdown in communication with regards this rule.

                                                  I must also point out that while I am in favour of allowing it to be run twice situation can occur were I wouldn't. E.g. Would be when every hand is been run twice and it is slowing the game down to much, as I have also seen this.
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                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Liono View Post
                                                    Couple of questions:

                                                    36 Showdown
                                                    At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud games, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.

                                                    Regarding this rule, at a showdown, if the last player to show has had all players fold their cards do they then have to show both cards to win that pot? This is something players argue about on a regular basis in our game.



                                                    10 (a) Under-Raise:
                                                    If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

                                                    Also this one, say a player makes an under-raise all in after a player has made a raise, if the next player then re-raises the original raise does the open raiser have the option to re-raise or can they just call.

                                                    So say blinds in the above situation are 200/400, player a makes it 1200, player b goes all in for 1500, player c then re raises to 5000, can player a now re-raise player c?
                                                    Stephen has already answered these ones.

                                                    Last man standing rule applies and he doesn't have to show he hand. It would be the same situation if...

                                                    On the river player A bets and player B calls. Player A open mucks, player B wins without having to show his/her cards.

                                                    And yes player B can re raise player c in your other question
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                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                      Hi Chris,

                                                      I personally don't have a problem with running it twice, I do have an issue with flipping their hands over and then deciding to take back 40% each and run it for the remaining 20% or something similar.

                                                      I didn't work UKIPT Killaraney but did work in Galway and I know this was discussed, I thought this was allowed in Galway, I know I allowed it anyway. So maybe there was some sort of breakdown in communication with regards this rule.

                                                      I must also point out that while I am in favour of allowing it to be run twice situation can occur were I wouldn't. E.g. Would be when every hand is been run twice and it is slowing the game down to much, as I have also seen this.

                                                      While I don't have a problem with people taking a % of the pot back myself I can see why it could cause problems and understand why its not allowed.

                                                      I was talking about the Ladbrokes game.
                                                      It was not allowed by at least 1 manager in Galway but tbh the players were considering leaving because of the rake and then there was an issue with 2 guys wanting to run a 5k pot twice, they were not allowed, so they agreed to take 2k back each and left with the money. After they left the rake was reduced and maybe the rules were relaxed (lot of drink taken).

                                                      I agree with you on the slowing down the game point but I have never seen it do so.
                                                      All players involved in the hand must be all in before the river which does not happen all that much really.
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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                                                        You realise youve left this one in again?
                                                        No not really,

                                                        Most rules can be taken advantage off so most are best left down to TD's discretion.

                                                        For example the string bet rule players have been abusing for years to get a cheep card..

                                                        Rule 31 is as follows..

                                                        If a player exposes his cards with action pending his cards are live and is allowed to bet as normal,
                                                        The player will receive a one round pen once the hand is complete (as always this is at the TD's discretion could be more could be less.)
                                                        If the player is a repeat offender he will receive a more severe penalty and possibly disqualification.

                                                        I hope that clears that one up,

                                                        John.
                                                        Last edited by TheTD; 29-07-10, 04:05.

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                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                          While I don't have a problem with people taking a % of the pot back myself I can see why it could cause problems and understand why its not allowed.

                                                          I was talking about the Ladbrokes game.
                                                          It was not allowed by at least 1 manager in Galway but tbh the players were considering leaving because of the rake and then there was an issue with 2 guys wanting to run a 5k pot twice, they were not allowed, so they agreed to take 2k back each and left with the money. After they left the rake was reduced and maybe the rules were relaxed (lot of drink taken).

                                                          I agree with you on the slowing down the game point but I have never seen it do so.
                                                          All players involved in the hand must be all in before the river which does not happen all that much really.
                                                          Hi Chris,

                                                          I am a believer in allowing the players to run it twice but this can only be done is certain situations.

                                                          1.When it is clear that there has been no colusion in the pot and players havent pushed another player out of the pot just to have a chance to chop it now they are heads up.

                                                          2. When neither player is worse than a 6/4 dog to win the pot. ie, it's fair to run it twice..

                                                          To be fair this will always be a tournament or club organizers decision the best thing for you cash game players to do is discus this before you play.

                                                          The rules for cash games at a festival should mimic the tournament rules as close as possible but this rule would be the exception..

                                                          J.

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                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by TheTD View Post
                                                            No not really,

                                                            Most rules can be taken advantage off so most are best left down to TD's discretion.

                                                            For example the string bet rule players have been abusing for years to get a cheep card..

                                                            Rule 31 is as follows..

                                                            If a player exposes his cards with action pending his cards are live and is allowed to bet as normal,
                                                            the player will receive a one round pen once the hand is complete (as always this is at the TD's discretion could be more could be less.)
                                                            If the player is a repeat offender he will receive a more severe penalty and possibly disqualification.

                                                            I hope that clears that one up,

                                                            John.
                                                            Yea, fully agree with that, always have.

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                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by TheTD View Post
                                                              Hi Chris,

                                                              I am a believer in allowing the players to run it twice but this can only be done is certain situations.

                                                              1.When it is clear that there has been no colusion in the pot and players havent pushed another player out of the pot just to have a chance to chop it now they are heads up.

                                                              2. When neither player is worse than a 6/4 dog to win the pot. ie, it's fair to run it twice..

                                                              To be fair this will always be a tournament or club organizers decision the best thing for you cash game players to do is discus this before you play.

                                                              The rules for cash games at a festival should mimic the tournament rules as close as possible but this rule would be the exception..

                                                              J.
                                                              1 If there is any collusion in any pot the players should be thrown out.
                                                              2 Has anybody been thrown out of a festival in Ireland for collusion? was he/she barred?
                                                              3 what difference does the statistical value of the hand have to do with running it twice?
                                                              if you are 1/3 against and run it twice then the value of your hand does not increase at all. same if you are 3/1 fav, it does not decrease the value of your hand. Anyway do you expect the dealer to work out the value of hands or call for the floor to ask if its ok? Can players only run it twice if the cards are on their backs? I have never seen a player object (I'm sure some have) to other players running it twice/three times.
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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                                1 If there is any collusion in any pot the players should be thrown out.
                                                                2 Has anybody been thrown out of a festival in Ireland for collusion? was he/she barred?
                                                                3 what difference does the statistical value of the hand have to do with running it twice?
                                                                if you are 1/3 against and run it twice then the value of your hand does not increase at all. same if you are 3/1 fav, it does not decrease the value of your hand. Anyway do you expect the dealer to work out the value of hands or call for the floor to ask if its ok? Can players only run it twice if the cards are on their backs? I have never seen a player object (I'm sure some have) to other players running it twice/three times.
                                                                Lots more questions than answers you will find going down this path,

                                                                If a player has called on every street and then folds to a massive bet on the river is he allowed to object to you running it twice?

                                                                Is anyone who played the pot allowed to object as they have contributed to the pot?

                                                                To conclude running it twice is not natural to the game in accordance with the rules of Texas Holdem and Omaha it is not allowed. The only way a pot can be split is when both players have the same hand.

                                                                A possible solution to this is to create a new game on the board for example 2/5 Omaha with option to run it twice.

                                                                At least then all players know in advance what they are sitting down too..

                                                                J.

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                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by TheTD View Post
                                                                  Lots more questions than answers you will find going down this path,

                                                                  If a player has called on every street and then folds to a massive bet on the river is he allowed to object to you running it twice?

                                                                  Is anyone who played the pot allowed to object as they have contributed to the pot?

                                                                  To conclude running it twice is not natural to the game in accordance with the rules of Texas Holdem and Omaha it is not allowed. The only way a pot can be split is when both players have the same hand.

                                                                  A possible solution to this is to create a new game on the board for example 2/5 Omaha with option to run it twice.

                                                                  At least then all players know in advance what they are sitting down too..

                                                                  J.
                                                                  This is going around in circles, you can run it twice in loads of places...it never causes a problem, if people are colluding or any other type of cheating then throw them out.

                                                                  I have only ever seen a TD object to this...never a player.

                                                                  Have you honestly ever seen anybody sit down at a 2/5 plo table who would not know exactly what was going on when players were running it twice?
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                                                                    #34
                                                                    String Betting

                                                                    Originally posted by carfax View Post
                                                                    2. String-betting enforcement needs to be relaxed in the sense that as long as a bet is in one forward motion it can stand (see rule 10C)

                                                                    10 (c) Methods of Raising (String-Betting):
                                                                    A raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one or more continuous motion(s) without going back towards the players stack; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion.
                                                                    It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear and dealers will be responsible for calling string raises.
                                                                    Just on the string bet rule. If a player lifts a stack of chips and moves them forward, dropping one chip from the stack onto the felt, is this a raise or call and if it's a raise is it the full amount of the chips in hand or a min raise?

                                                                    Also, there is a method used by some players who lift a stack (usually not counting it) and in one motion stack the chips in small piles on the felt. In most cases some chips are then taken back into the stack once the player has counted the raise/bet. Is this ok?

                                                                    Is it also ok to announe raise then put into the pot the previous bet, then the rest of the raise?

                                                                    I'm starting a new club in the coming weeks and am using these rules so i need to clear a few things up.

                                                                    Cheers.

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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Any word on this? ^

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                                                                        #36
                                                                        Hi Eoin,

                                                                        Sorry haven't checked in here in ages. Been trying to get clips from youtube to explain this as clearly as possible but not having any luck.


                                                                        Originally posted by Liono View Post
                                                                        Just on the string bet rule. If a player lifts a stack of chips and moves them forward, dropping one chip from the stack onto the felt, is this a raise or call and if it's a raise is it the full amount of the chips in hand or a min raise? You have to use common sense here as the TD (we are not talking about a chip accidentally falling off the stack here, it is lifting a full column of chips towards the middle but only dropping one chip in), but my answer is that the bet is the chip that goes into the pot. Players should always be advised to state their intended action before putting chips in the pot just to avoid problems like this.

                                                                        There would be a very subtle difference here, if the player lifts the full stack but only one chip hits the felt or if the player slides the entire stack forward and then tries to take back some of the bet.


                                                                        Also, there is a method used by some players who lift a stack (usually not counting it) and in one motion stack the chips in small piles on the felt. In most cases some chips are then taken back into the stack once the player has counted the raise/bet. Is this ok? Yes, this is fine so long as the bet is in one forward motion. So in other words the player uses only chips that he/ she has picked up and then proceeds to cut them down. They can't then go back to their stack for more chips and start cutting more down (unless they state the amount of their raise of course)

                                                                        Is it also ok to announe raise then put into the pot the previous bet, then the rest of the raise? Yes

                                                                        I'm starting a new club in the coming weeks and am using these rules so i need to clear a few things up.

                                                                        Very best of luck with this Eoin. I know you will have massive success with it.

                                                                        Cheers.
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