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    Advice please

    €1/€2 live cash table. Raise to €20 pre-flop, 4 players in the hand (€80 in the pot). Flop comes 6 6 4. Player 1 says 'fold, I mean check', 2nd player goes all in (€73), player 3 folds, player 4 folds, back to player 1 who calls and shows 6 3.
    Whats the ruling here? Is player 1's hand dead as soon as he says 'fold' or not?

    #2
    I doubt it.
    X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
    Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

    $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by mr. wolf View Post
      €1/€2 live cash table. Raise to €20 pre-flop, 4 players in the hand (€80 in the pot). Flop comes 6 6 4. Player 1 says 'fold, I mean check', 2nd player goes all in (€73), player 3 folds, player 4 folds, back to player 1 who calls and shows 6 3.
      Whats the ruling here? Is player 1's hand dead as soon as he says 'fold' or not?
      might vary by venue. If he said it really quick before the next player shoves id say he is ok. If the next player acts as soon as he heard fold its more likely the hand would be ruled dead but by allowing the first player to check the second player and any subsequent callers could get their options back.

      Comment


        #4
        Was this a mistake or angle but player 1?

        I don't know the exact rule here but do know I keep getting given out to when I try to open fold from the small blind post flop in both the fitz & voodoo so I presume there is an actual rule & I think I read somewhere in the wsop they get a penalty for such an action

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          #5
          Player with 63 shouldn't be able to just open fold his hand so I would assume that he gets the option to check regardless of what he has said.
          "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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            #6
            Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
            Was this a mistake or angle but player 1?

            I don't know the exact rule here but do know I keep getting given out to when I try to open fold from the small blind post flop in both the fitz & voodoo so I presume there is an actual rule & I think I read somewhere in the wsop they get a penalty for such an action

            IMO open folding is the equivalent of playing out of turn

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              #7
              Dont see the issue with open folding. At any street you should have all options open to you. IMO, this is a clear angleshoot from player 1. If it is the first time, i think a warning is enough. Any future occurances, his hand should be ruled dead.

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                #8
                In this instance i would let player 1's call stand but give him a first warning that any more antics would result in his hand being killed .

                Also LOL at player 1 being in a pot out oop with 63 .

                Comment


                  #9
                  Don't see the problem with open folding. You can open fold online anyway.
                  If his cards haven't been mucked before the other guy shoved then his hand is live. Bit of a dickhead if he was doing it as an angle though.

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                    #10
                    This comes back to that Chinese lad in the Rio turning his cards up and saying all in,(er I mean I muck duh!!) if you dont stick to a standard it leaves the game wide open for angleshooting.

                    Imo, the chap obv knows he has prob 99% the winning hand at that stage, yet chooses to say fold in order to portray his hand as useless, and then covers it up by saying check. Im sure the guy who originally shoved felt pretty screwed over.

                    Open folding is ok if you are first to act, maybe not in HU pots for collusion sakes.
                    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                      Also LOL at player 1 being in a pot out oop with 63 .
                      It was only 20 quid pre, and shur he had 1 in already!

                      Implied pot odds like!
                      ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                        It was only 20 quid pre, and shur he had 1 in already!

                        Implied pot odds like!
                        or the old "i was calling with live low cards because everyone else prob have high aces and broadways"
                        airport, lol

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by mr. wolf View Post
                          €1/€2 live cash table. Raise to €20 pre-flop, 4 players in the hand (€80 in the pot). Flop comes 6 6 4. Player 1 says 'fold, I mean check', 2nd player goes all in (€73), player 3 folds, player 4 folds, back to player 1 who calls and shows 6 3.
                          Whats the ruling here? Is player 1's hand dead as soon as he says 'fold' or not?
                          If someone gos all in and someone says call then its a call even if he says after sorry i mean fold.
                          Id kill his hand or else give the guy his 73 euro back as he was induced into shoving by guys pathetic attempt at angling.
                          20 PRE with 3 6 off suit no value in live cash games

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                            Don't see the problem with open folding. You can open fold online anyway.
                            If his cards haven't been mucked before the other guy shoved then his hand is live. Bit of a dickhead if he was doing it as an angle though.
                            You can play online with your dick in your hand too fapping away.
                            Also no one live has ever told me to get cancer beating him in a 10 doll tourney
                            comparing live and online in this instance is wrong.

                            As a player who plays live i hate people open mucking its manners to check enough ass clowns playing wthout regs doing this too.

                            If its 3 handed and im last too act and 1st pos open folds gives huge advantage to me.
                            It only takes a second to check manners are cheap use them.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What was player 2 shoving with?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thanks everybody for the quick and in depth responses. Some further infor on the hand: Player 2 shoved with pocket 10's. As far as i can remember player 2 had straddled to €5, player 1 was in the big blind, 2 callers for the straddle, small blind folded, and big blind completes. Player 2 raised to €20 and the other 3 players in the hand all called. But none of that really matters as regards the actual ruling to be employed here.
                                When the flop came out, player one says 'fold, i mean check' immediately, there was no pause in his statement and it looked like he genuinely made a mistake as to what he meant to say (daft as that sounds)
                                Again, thanks all for the comments, keep the opinions and comments coming please, i want as much intel on this as possible, i'll tell you the ruling i made tomorrow...
                                Mick

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by mr. wolf View Post
                                  Thanks everybody for the quick and in depth responses. Some further infor on the hand: Player 2 shoved with pocket 10's. As far as i can remember player 2 had straddled to €5, player 1 was in the big blind, 2 callers for the straddle, small blind folded, and big blind completes. Player 2 raised to €20 and the other 3 players in the hand all called. But none of that really matters as regards the actual ruling to be employed here.
                                  When the flop came out, player one says 'fold, i mean check' immediately, there was no pause in his statement and it looked like he genuinely made a mistake as to what he meant to say (daft as that sounds)
                                  Again, thanks all for the comments, keep the opinions and comments coming please, i want as much intel on this as possible, i'll tell you the ruling i made tomorrow...
                                  Mick
                                  If that's the case it's pretty clear, player 1's hand is live. Warning to be issued once hand is over...

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by sixtwo
                                    player 1s a prick, but player 2s a stupid prick, so obv player 1 has a massive hand, i fold, wait am too busy looking at something to realise i have been awarded for my shite call pre and didnt realise i floped gin,

                                    car park the both of them

                                    tell me 10 10 was the guy that raised pre????
                                    You know, for somebody calling a person a 'stupid prick' you should really have some idea how bad your reading comprehension is.
                                    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Hand has to be live really, I mean if you don't muck it after he speaks and the action continues, you've obv. accepted he meant to check, as do the other players when they continue to act after him without seeing his cards being mucked or without asking for clarification.
                                      How the hand played out after is immaterial, best hand wins the pot, that's the game.
                                      Probably give a warning, muck his hand if it happens again but you can't really deny him the pot this time.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Thanks again for the feedback.
                                        The ruling I make is that the hand is live. It is said so quickly that i have to assume the player simply said the wrong word, also that fold isn't an option in this spot unless he actively mucks his hand which he didn't.
                                        However, due to the fact that it may be an angle shoot, and may mislead player 2 in his action, I rule that player 2 may take back his all in bet of €73 and that the players play for the pot of €80. I felt that this was the fairest option in this spot and although i had to make the ruling very quickly in what ( I think everyone would agree) was a very peculiar situation and one which i had not come across in 9 years of running poker tournaments. I like to think that it was the right ruling and would stand by it for future instances. I also gave player 1 a warning and told him that his hand may be folded if this happened again.
                                        Mick

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I would agree with everything accept for returning the €73 to the all in player . He knowingly made his all in bet with an over pair after player 1 had acted .
                                          I am gonna presume in this case it was player 2 that looked for a ruling after he realised he was behind when he got called . ( Theres the angle shoot )
                                          I think if you are declaring player 1's hand live then player 2's all in should be treated equally and should stand also .

                                          Hypothetical Question :

                                          What would your ruling be if one of the other players in the hand had of called player 2's all in bet also ??

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by mr. wolf View Post
                                            Thanks again for the feedback.
                                            The ruling I make is that the hand is live. It is said so quickly that i have to assume the player simply said the wrong word, also that fold isn't an option in this spot unless he actively mucks his hand which he didn't.
                                            However, due to the fact that it may be an angle shoot, and may mislead player 2 in his action, I rule that player 2 may take back his all in bet of €73 and that the players play for the pot of €80. I felt that this was the fairest option in this spot and although i had to make the ruling very quickly in what ( I think everyone would agree) was a very peculiar situation and one which i had not come across in 9 years of running poker tournaments. I like to think that it was the right ruling and would stand by it for future instances. I also gave player 1 a warning and told him that his hand may be folded if this happened again.
                                            Mick
                                            your ruling was well intentioned but very unfair to players 3 and 4 who folded to player 2s all in. Player 2 had full info that player 1 said fold|check before deciding to shove. Hand should be deemed live first the full pot with a warning to player 1

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              If player 3 or 4 had called the all then i'd have ruled that the all in bet stood and just issued player 1 with a warning after the hand.
                                              Since both players folded and it came back to player one who showed trips i think my ruling that player 2 can take back his all in is fair as he was mis led by player 1.
                                              Its a bizarre situation ( a clusterfuck for want of a better word) and hopefully one i'm not faced with again.
                                              thanks for all the feedback anyway.
                                              Much appreciated
                                              Mick

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                                                If someone gos all in and someone says call then its a call even if he says after sorry i mean fold.
                                                Id kill his hand or else give the guy his 73 euro back as he was induced into shoving by guys pathetic attempt at angling.
                                                20 PRE with 3 6 off suit no value in live cash games
                                                ^ thats very much how i felt, also i didnt ask for any money back at all , Mick offered

                                                I believe it was a complete angle from player 1 with how the game was playing etc and he was banking on lots of action by the time it got back to him so he could put *his* last 73 into the pot

                                                i bet 80 on the flop

                                                i took the money back (knowing it was wrong to do but tilting at the angle shot) and left the casino, i felt it was such a cheap move and was playing on Micks soundness

                                                Mick ive played at many of your games and i feel now youve become established enough now that you have to be more adamant with your rulings and not worry about hurting someones feelings or not being sound

                                                (there are nights you are dont get me wrong and there the nights i think you run the best show)

                                                at the end of the day people respect solid tough rules

                                                player 1 has enough experience and is mainly a live player , he knew 100% what he was doing, whilst im not sure on what exactly should be the ruling it is defo interesting

                                                id probably be on the side of a verbal warning and his hand is not dead, i had a long session of playing that weekend and just took your offer of a refunded bet (and gave him a dodgy look) and went home

                                                now feck off and enjoy your holidays and the Justin Bieber gig ...oh brospeh
                                                Last edited by Bp; 16-08-12, 15:47.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                  Also LOL at player 1 being in a pot out oop with 63 .
                                                  Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                  It was only 20 quid pre, and shur he had 1 in already!

                                                  Implied pot odds like!
                                                  Originally posted by eamonhonda View Post
                                                  or the old "i was calling with live low cards because everyone else prob have high aces and broadways"
                                                  6's were hitting all night though so obv call.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Player 2 seems more like the angle shooter than player 1.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      OP reminds me of this:

                                                      European Poker Tour 2011 Season 7 Grand Final MadridWatch as Ivan Freitez Angle Shoots Yanayt.



                                                      Skip to about 2:20 or so if you just want to see that part but the video is just of a single hand.
                                                      Obviously the video is different because it's a raise / call instead of check / fold but I thought it was interesting.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        wow the video just got me a bit mad. The guy just cheated on the table in front of everybody.

                                                        Ok about the "fold i ment check" thing - IT IS A FOLD , i will declare the hand dead and also if i see he tried to pull a trick i will penalty him without warning. Verbal announcement STANDS

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by k_rukov View Post
                                                          wow the video just got me a bit mad. The guy just cheated on the table in front of everybody.

                                                          Ok about the "fold i ment check" thing - IT IS A FOLD , i will declare the hand dead and also if i see he tried to pull a trick i will penalty him without warning. Verbal announcement STANDS
                                                          he didnt fold sure...he said...ok i raise..i mean call..he never mentioned fold

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by terryl View Post
                                                            he didnt fold sure...he said...ok i raise..i mean call..he never mentioned fold
                                                            Guy in the video? Speechplay - nothing wrong with it.

                                                            However, k_rukov was referring to the hand in op, I think.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                                              Guy in the video? Speechplay - nothing wrong with it.

                                                              However, k_rukov was referring to the hand in op, I think.
                                                              I thought it was clever, complete angle shoot obviously but still found it fun y to watch.

                                                              Comment

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