Voodoo Hand ??

[DAMO72]

Hi , I had another semi decent run in the Voodoo monthly game without cashing finished 15/75.
There is just one hand bugging me that im not sure of .

15 left and blinds are 2k/4k + 400 ante 7 handed.
Im SB with 41k holding JJ, utg (cl 160k lag) opens for 12k, mp2 (vg player imo) dwells a bit and then pushes for 65k .
I folded as i felt i could find a better spot from the button with a full round in front of me and 2 shorter stacks on the table , also i didn't want to get involved in a possible multi way pot with JJ.

Anyway utg folded and mp2 shows 99

My Q is should i be just getting it in here all the time.
Is it a good /bad fold considering the blinds and my stack.
Am i too fkn nitty

I always seem to be getting deep runs in events like these and either missing the cash or min cashing. Im faced with hands like this a lot and i think i come to the same decision all the time, always looking for the better spot .
Is this where my problem is????
Do i need to man up and just take the gamble.

[JamieCarra]

Terrible fold.

With 10bbs, JJ is theeeeeeeeeeeeeeee nuts.

[Reaps]

Damo if you want to move from min cashing a high % of the time to winning some of these you need to make these calls.

You're getting 6/4 on the call so I'm happy getting it in even against AK/AQ.

You'll even see him shoving in this spot with any two a good deal of the time. In fact in his position with UTG LAG it's a perfect spot to shove any two.

[Vegas Events]

Hey Damo.

He wasn't at the table long enough to have a very good idea re his play. He did appear to be a solid player. Then he made a similar play in a similar situation about 10/12 hands previous against UTG call, Yiffi raised large and yer man shoved to get them off it then showed AQs. Once he showed it I just said to myself he's not as solid as it appears. Felt he'd do it again soon and wouldn't get away with it.

JJ is a horrible hand when there's considerable action before you though.

N

[NuckChorris]

Have to say you def play very tight Damo. At this stage in the tournie it was a crapshoot and even tho there was a lot of action ahead of you I think you can never fold for 10bb here. If you don't pick up a hand over the next 14 hands you'll be down to a stack that'll be called by any two from the blinds.

The game did feel like it changed very quickly tho as only an hour or 90 mins before it felt like no one was getting knocked out and that sitting super-tight was the best way to move your way thru the field. When the blinds were still 400/800and 500/1k the play was different and JJ was rarely good in these spots. It can be hard to change your play from that to be happy shoving all-in with any pair from 77 up, KQ and almost any ace.

[BallymoreChris]

I had this exact spot in the UKIPT in Killarney with about 12BB.....I folded and was shown A 10 & 10 10 (tens held up)

Still think its a fold though...........but for some reason I would never fold QQ here????

[Bubbleking]

Hey Damo.

He wasn't at the table long enough to have a very good idea re his play. He did appear to be a solid player. Then he made a similar play in a similar situation about 10/12 hands previous against UTG call, Yiffi raised large and yer man shoved to get them off it then showed AQs. Once he showed it I just said to myself he's not as solid as it appears. Felt he'd do it again soon and wouldn't get away with it.

JJ is a horrible hand when there's considerable action before you though.

N

better defend myself here. I had 45k in the BB when Yiffi raised the CO to 12k. Blinds were 2k/4k and Yiffi was table chip leader on 150k ish. Anything other than a shove by me there with AQs is lolbad. I showed because I didnt want people thinking I was doing it light and I didnt want to be looked up light in the next couple of orbits due to the high blind to chip ratio.

2nd hand I have 65k or 15bb. Again anything other than a shove with 99 by me there is pretty bad

I couldn't understand the shock at some players going "wow why are you shoving for so much" I have 15bb - really too small to have any kind of realistic folding equity when I come over the top of an UTG raise so when Im shoving my hand has some value.

[Moneymaker]

Folding JJ there is really bad imo. If he's competent he should be jamming a pretty wide range there. JJ crushes that range. Easy call. I'd be getting it in here with 88, never mind JJ.

The shove with 99 is super, super standard with 15 bigs. Lol @ live donks saying otherwise. These are the same people that limp/fold KTo/78s/A6s/44 with 12 big blinds

[IPB Champ]

It's just one of those spots were your not too happy to get it in multiway but you have to. With the blinds so high peoples ranges will widen. I would reckon that the majority of the time you would be up against Ax v smaller pair v ur jj. Am I right in thinking that we would have around 40/50% equity most of the time here? If you reship the loot it looks strong so you could possibly get it HU alot of the time.

[Strewelpeter]

... At this stage in the tournie it was a crapshoot and even tho there was a lot of action ahead of you I think you can never fold for 10bb here. If you don't pick up a hand over the next 14 hands you'll be down to a stack that'll be called by any two from the blinds.

The game did feel like it changed very quickly tho as only an hour or 90 mins before it felt like no one was getting knocked out and that sitting super-tight was the best way to move your way thru the field. When the blinds were still 400/800and 500/1k the play was different and JJ was rarely good in these spots. It can be hard to change your play from that to be happy shoving all-in with any pair from 77 up, KQ and almost any ace.

Getting a good feel for how ranges change as M changes it the key to tournament play. The way that this tourney is structured means that gambling is mandatory now.

... I showed because I didnt want people thinking I was doing it light and I didnt want to be looked up light in the next couple of orbits due to the high blind to chip ratio.

IMO showing here is more likely to have the opposite effect for you

If you reship the loot it looks strong so you could possibly get it HU alot of the time.

Does a reship really narrow the CL's calling range ?

[DAMO72]

I think the fact that yiffi raised and Tony RR was putting me off calling as i thought for sure yiffi was calling due to the earlier hand between them and other hands . I just felt at best i was gonna be up against an over pair and/or 2 overs .

In different circumstanses i probably get it in . It's just i come across this situation so often im wondering if this is whats holding me back .
Im not a believer in the 10 bb rule , i just dont think it's necessary in a well structured tourney to get it in with any 2 just because i have only 10 bb's. I dont think it necessary to be all in unless you have no other choice . I get this from a very successfull irish player and is probably one of the best tourney players in the country atm.
I find i mix my play up a lot early in games and am able to build a stack but as Ronan say's i play very tight at the business end . Its just situations like this really bug me , its no problem if i get to push 1st but i rarely seem to find a call here .
Me thinks a bit of coaching is needed.

[IPB Champ]

It's all to do with how the chipleader views the hero and how the hero thinks he is viewed by the chipleader.. So I can't actually say how light the cl will call the hero. If we snap shove the loot in he is going to need a pretty big hand to call it off, otherwise he is gambling.

[DAMO72]

Folding JJ there is really bad imo. If he's competent he should be jamming a pretty wide range there. JJ crushes that range. Easy call. I'd be getting it in here with 88, never mind JJ.

The shove with 99 is super, super standard with 15 bigs. Lol @ live donks saying otherwise. These are the same people that limp/fold KTo/78s/A6s/44 with 12 big blinds

Yes i agree totally with the bolded bit if i get to shove 1st . Its the 1st part i seem to have trouble with.

[ghostface]

I think the fact that yiffi raised and Tony RR was putting me off calling as i thought for sure yiffi was calling due to the earlier hand between them and other hands . I just felt at best i was gonna be up against an over pair and/or 2 overs .

In different circumstanses i probably get it in . It's just i come across this situation so often im wondering if this is whats holding me back .
Im not a believer in the 10 bb rule , i just dont think it's necessary in a well structured tourney to get it in with any 2 just because i have only 10 bb's. I dont think it necessary to be all in unless you have no other choice . I get this from a very successfull irish player and is probably one of the best tourney players in the country atm.
I find i mix my play up a lot early in games and am able to build a stack but as Ronan say's i play very tight at the business end . Its just situations like this really bug me , its no problem if i get to push 1st but i rarely seem to find a call here .
Me thinks a bit of coaching is needed.

On the above Damo, it think by this stage the structure had collapsed a bit due to a couple of hours of noone getting knocked out. It's fair enough not to want to get it in with any 2 but i would look at JJ here as being very very strong. Yiffi's range here is ridiculously wide so i think you really just have to decide whether you are ahead of Bubblekings range. I wouldn't ever be folding in this spot

[Reaps]

I think the fact that yiffi raised and Tony RR was putting me off calling as i thought for sure yiffi was calling due to the earlier hand between them and other hands . I just felt at best i was gonna be up against an over pair and/or 2 overs .

How can you put a LAG chip leader and a competent player well capable of bluff shoving in this spot onto such a strong minimum range of overpair and/or 2 overs?

I think 99 is well towards the top of Bubblekings range here.

I think you're playing the latter stages of your tournies too scared Damo.(only based on above and your own obsverations)

It's a lot easier to be the initial raiser over UTG but you cannot fold yourself to a tournament win either.

[DAMO72]

How can you put a LAG chip leader and a competent player well capable of bluff shoving in this spot onto such a strong minimum range of overpair and/or 2 overs?

I think 99 is well towards the top of Bubblekings range here.

I think you're playing the latter stages of your tournies too scared Damo.(only based on above and your own obsverations)

It's a lot easier to be the initial raiser over UTG but you cannot fold yourself to a tournament win either.

I suppose my thinking on this is somewhat results based . Ive been in this situation so many times and have got it in and walked into the monster or i was ahead and got sucked out on by some donk making a move and i get pissed off and beat myself up for not folding and waiting for a better spot.

About 2 years ago i earned the name Bubble boy because of it , they even printed me my own T-shirt because of it. It is just getting so frustrating lately and i have to change things.
Has anyone any good links to articles that could help with this part of my game .

[Reaps]

I suppose my thinking on this is somewhat results based . Ive been in this situation so many times and have got it in and walked into the monster or i was ahead and got sucked out on by some donk making a move and i get pissed off and beat myself up for not folding and waiting for a better spot.

About 2 years ago i earned the name Bubble boy because of it , they even printed me my own T-shirt because of it. It is just getting so frustrating lately and i have to change things.
Has anyone any good links to articles that could help with this part of my game .

At least you're aware it's a problem.

You really need to isolate that paticular hand in that paticular game and keep out thoughts of previous suckouts/monsters.

After all the Maths say call. Even when you run into the big hands it might well have been the correct play.

[8611]

Still think its a fold though...........but for some reason I would never fold QQ here????

i honestly think a fold is fine here, because of the action, but its very close. when you're likely to be three way you're never in great shape calling with JJ and I think the second pusher's range is much more skewed towards hands that crush you and that you are flipping with than hands you crush. then you have to factor in what UTG is raising with.

the one thing swinging me towards a call here would be the size of the second raiser's stack. you would expect thim to simply raise a big hand rather than push when he's playing that stack, albeit he would be turning his hand face up so he may still turn up with the goods unfortunately. on balance I would still fold. if it was an open push or a open raise from the second player I would call / push, but I think with a likelythree handed board I don't want to be there with JJ.

I also agree QQ would never be a fold, I presume because AQ and JJ are realistically in their ranges which just tips the scale in favour of a call. there is a long way between KK and QQ, and a decent way between QQ and JJ which means they play radically different to other hands which are just one ranking apart.

EDIT: as against that I note UTG's description as LAG, which widens his range and increases his chance that second raiser is merely attacking that wide range.

meh, but I think 88, 99 and 1010 are the only hands you want him to turn up with, and I don't think he turns up with A8 - A10 a lot.

meh fold...
fold

[BigBadPat]

I had this exact spot in the UKIPT in Killarney with about 12BB.....I folded and was shown A 10 & 10 10 (tens held up)

Still think its a fold though...........but for some reason I would never fold QQ here????

I had just started the final table (with 10 players) & it was agreed to pay the 10th 115 Euro, Blinds 3/6K with an ante of 500 and it is raised to 16K and the person on my right goes all in with JJ when I look down at QQ and call. We both have an average stack just over 16BB The original raiser folds. A Jack on the Turn seals my fate. Still wonder if I should have waited as there was a number of shorter stacks.............

[ghostface]

I had just started the final table (with 10 players) & it was agreed to pay the 10th 115 Euro, Blinds 3/6K with an ante of 500 and it is raised to 16K and the person on my right goes all in with JJ when I look down at QQ and call. We both have an average stack just over 16BB The original raiser folds. A Jack on the Turn seals my fate. Still wonder if I should have waited as there was a number of shorter stacks.............

Twas me Pat There was a bit of discussion about it then with a few players saying they'd fold the QQ in that spot. I never would, unlucky. If people are happy to survive and just climb an extra spot up prize money fair enough but i dont play like that

[IPB Champ]

Chinatown!

[Bubbleking]

the one thing swinging me towards a call here would be the size of the second raiser's stack. you would expect thim to simply raise a big hand rather than push when he's playing that stack

I have 65k. Initial raise was 12k how much do you raise with the following range of hands?

AA-QQ
JJ-88
<77
AK-AT

[8611]

AA-QQ to 30k
JJ-88 if playing at all - push
<77 if playing at all - push
AK - push
AQ - A10 - if playing at all - push

[NuckChorris]

AA-QQ to 30k
JJ-88 if playing at all - push
<77 if playing at all - push
AK - push
AQ - A10 - if playing at all - push

That's seriously flawed man. You pick your range of hands and raise the same with them, be it a shove or 30k raise. You trying to let everyone know exactly what you have before they call?

[ghostface]

AA-QQ to 30k
JJ-88 if playing at all - push
<77 if playing at all - push
AK - push
AQ - A10 - if playing at all - push

Why do it differently with AA to QQ? Every hand is all in IMO he only has 15 bbs

Edit: nuck got there before me

[8611]

That's seriously flawed man. You pick your range of hands and raise the same with them, be it a shove or 30k raise. You trying to let everyone know exactly what you have before they call?

no, this is what I think is the optimum raise in each case, and in so far as we know nothing about villain, and are trying to put him on a range of hands, this is what / how I put him on something.

I obv will act differently in given situations given dynamics at the table and my perceived image at the table. if you think about it i can't answer the q he's asked without offending against the point you've made!

[8611]

Why do it differently with AA to QQ? Every hand is all in IMO he only has 15 bbs

i think you have more than one move with 15BBs. I also think you lose a lot of value here with AA KK by pushing (unless you're taking advantage of your image / some other dynamic at the table)

[ghostface]

i think you have more than one move with 15BBs. I also think you lose a lot of value here with AA KK by pushing (unless you're taking advantage of your image / some other dynamic at the table)

If i decide to raise in this given situation its all going in.

[DAMO72]

Any link to articles that cover this , so i can learn to own some of you dregs

[Starvin Marvin]

28 replies, wow.

[DAMO72]

28 replies, wow.

And your point is ?

[NuckChorris]

Any link to articles that cover this , so i can learn to own some of you dregs

When I replied I thought of another thread where you raise big hands like 8611 said there. No articles were posted there either tho iirc.

[BallymoreChris]

I had just started the final table (with 10 players) & it was agreed to pay the 10th 115 Euro, Blinds 3/6K with an ante of 500 and it is raised to 16K and the person on my right goes all in with JJ when I look down at QQ and call. We both have an average stack just over 16BB The original raiser folds. A Jack on the Turn seals my fate. Still wonder if I should have waited as there was a number of shorter stacks.............

You have to call I think, I'm never folding QQ at that stage of any tournament unless some situation that I have yet to witness comes up.(I'm sure some genius poster can come up with one)

The hand you describe is one for the BBV not the theory section.

[BallymoreChris]

Why do it differently with AA to QQ? Every hand is all in IMO he only has 15 bbs

Edit: nuck got there before me

AA & KK can be a call here to induce a squeeze which is totally dependent on the standard of, and the stack sizes of the players still to act.

[DeadParrot]

AA-QQ to 30k
JJ-88 if playing at all - push
<77 if playing at all - push
AK - push
AQ - A10 - if playing at all - push

that is lolbad.
Even without going into it in depth, surely it is pretty obvious why raising to 30k with a stack of 60oddk is a bad idea.

[DeadParrot]

IMO showing here is more likely to have the opposite effect for you

I think you are overestimating the standard here

[8611]

Even without going into it in depth, surely it is pretty obvious why raising to 30k with a stack of 60oddk is a bad idea.

please, enlighten me

[DAMO72]

I think you are overestimating the standard here

Thats not a very nice comment now is it.

It almost sounds as if you are refering to all the players there as dumb cunts .

[sligoboi]

please, enlighten me

Think it's pretty simple if you've been sat with players for a long period of time and you''ve been shoving and then you all of a sudden just raise then it's uber suspicious.

If you're shoving with 88-jj then you should do the exact same with qq-aa

[Starvin Marvin]

And your point is ?

It might be the biggest non entity hand i have ever seen posted so it amused me to see so many replies.

[DAMO72]

It might be the biggest non entity hand i have ever seen posted so it amused me to see so many replies.

Im glad i was able to provide some little bit of amusement to your obviously sad and boring life .

No thanks required , it was my pleasure.

[Starvin Marvin]

Im glad i was able to provide some little bit of amusement to your obviously sad and boring life .

No thanks required , it was my pleasure.

You didnt post all the replies so unfortunately you cant take all the credit.

My life may be boring but at least i know not to fold JJ with 10bb's.

[DAMO72]

You didnt post all the replies so unfortunately you cant take all the credit.

My life may be boring but at least i know not to fold JJ with 10bb's.

I suppose thats just down to opinion .

Shall we leave it at that ??

[sixtwo]

not like you damo to fold JJ with 10 bigs, if you were at the table with me you would have your trousers off eja*ulating on the felt

very nitty got big man

[8611]

Think it's pretty simple if you've been sat with players for a long period of time and you''ve been shoving and then you all of a sudden just raise then it's uber suspicious.

If you're shoving with 88-jj then you should do the exact same with qq-aa

thanks, but apart from the fact that I already addressed this in my posts above, that it seems that OP was only at the table a short time and that deadparrot himself said that we're to expect the standard is really bad, I don't think this was the point he was making

from my point of view I think pushing with AA / KK for 65k over a 12k raise there, assuming that there is no other dynamic linked to our image at the table is bad in that a simple raise to 25 - 30k

- allows UTG and or other parties to either bluff at the pot and or overplay their lesser hands
- encourages the UTG LAG chip leader to call with his KQ KJ 77 type hands which he would fold to a 65k push
- further allows him to catch a bit of the flop ('I put you on AK') and duly pay us off with those lesser hands

he simply calls with a lot less hands when we push there and its a wasted opportunity imo

and any risk that he will smell a rat by us raising half our stack instead of shipping, or will ultimately suck out on us is outweighed by these advantages

now if that is bad reasoning I'd like to know why?!?

[markc]

Any link to articles that cover this , so i can learn to own some of you dregs

Kill Everyone covers endgame push/call/fold scenarios very well with analysis of ICM/Bubble Factors etc..

[handofgod]

thanks, but apart from the fact that I already addressed this in my posts above, that it seems that OP was only at the table a short time and that deadparrot himself said that we're to expect the standard is really bad, I don't think this was the point he was making

from my point of view I think pushing with AA / KK for 65k over a 12k raise there, assuming that there is no other dynamic linked to our image at the table is bad in that a simple raise to 25 - 30k

- allows UTG and or other parties to either bluff at the pot and or overplay their lesser hands
- encourages the UTG LAG chip leader to call with his KQ KJ 77 type hands which he would fold to a 65k push
- further allows him to catch a bit of the flop ('I put you on AK') and duly pay us off with those lesser hands

he simply calls with a lot less hands when we push there and its a wasted opportunity imo

and any risk that he will smell a rat by us raising half our stack instead of shipping, or will ultimately suck out on us is outweighed by these advantages

now if that is bad reasoning I'd like to know why?!?

first of all apologies if the maths is fcuked up

lets say you make it 25k, when it comes back to utg theres~46K in pot. You are very unlikely to induce a shove from any hand that wouldnt call a shove. If he raises its ~ 40K to you to call into a pot of ~99k. Pushing light would be suicidal giving you those odds as you would find it tough to fold atc. If you raise more, or anyone else raises you they are giving you even better odds, so inducing a bluffshove isnt going to happen unless villains are droolers

Again if utg flats its 13K into 46K,but you will only have 40K behind and pot will be 59K, so I dont think hes flatting ever unless he is really bad, and if he does, the times he calls and c/f instead of calling a shove probably cancel out times he calls and gets it in on flop where he would have folded to a shove

Also even if there is no history, you will prob be shoving a lot from now on and if you raise small and show KK and start shoving later it doesnt take a genius to figure it out. I wouldnt start raising small all the time either, as if some fools start flatting and you have weak hands you will get in all sorts of awkward spots

OP, I think your hand is a pretty clear shove. Im not fistpumping with a raise and a 3bet ahead of me, but waiting for a better spot when each round costs me 20% of my stack (and will increase) is not for me when I have the 4th nuts