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    JPs Christas Cracker ruling.

    Blinds 150 300 I'm SB. Folded to the button who limps. I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm. The Dealer deemed it to be a call instead off a raise and a ruling was called..... who deemed it a raise. So was all good.

    A few minutes later JP came over the table and said this was the wrong ruling that it should off been a call because it was one chip used.

    OPINIONS..

    BTW not looking to flame or annoy anyone here JP is by far one off the best TDs in Ireland.

    Its clearly 2 actions here and since 2005 I have been playing this way live only to be told im doing it all wrong nearly nine years on.

    Dont want to make this mistake again if it is my fault.

    #2
    Originally posted by pppspecial View Post
    Blinds 150 300 I'm SB. Folded to the button who limps. I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm. The Dealer deemed it to be a call instead off a raise and a ruling was called..... who deemed it a raise. So was all good.

    A few minutes later JP came over the table and said this was the wrong ruling that it should off been a call because it was one chip used.

    OPINIONS..

    BTW not looking to flame or annoy anyone here JP is by far one off the best TDs in Ireland.

    Its clearly 2 actions here and since 2005 I have been playing this way live only to be told im doing it all wrong nearly nine years on.

    Dont want to make this mistake again if it is my fault.
    Without googling the exact rule, my general feeling would be a call if you took back the sb. If you tossed 1k out on top, should be deemed a raise. Again just a practical assessment, rules may technically state something else.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by brady23 View Post
      Without googling the exact rule, my general feeling would be a call if you took back the sb. If you tossed 1k out on top, should be deemed a raise. Again just a practical assessment, rules may technically state something else.
      I left the 100 chip and the extra 1k chip out. Just withdrawing the 50 chips .x2 25

      Comment


        #4
        I'd like to see the rule used to make that a call. To me it's a raise.

        Comment


          #5
          It was meant to be a raise to 1100. You dont have to talk at any point in poker.

          I understand the rule regarding the single chip tossed without saying anything is a call but throwing 2 is a raise.

          Comment


            #6
            It's not one chip, it's clearly two chips, the 100 plus the 1k. 100% raise

            Comment


              #7
              I would take the 1k on top of the 100 chip as a raise to 1100.

              1k chip on its own with the 150 taken back = call.

              Comment


                #8
                Ah misread, yeah as I stated it's a raise for me in that spot. I would say any amount including 2 chips over 450 would be deemed a raise??

                I assume 50% or more on top of bb is still deemed to be a min raise if nothing is said??

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm going to let this run for a few days (as I did with the Ambiguous bet Rule) before I reply.
                  €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
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                  Comment


                    #10
                    without anyone saying anything a single chip = call
                    a double chip = raise
                    think this the way its been for as long as i been playing

                    ps i always tell new players to state what there doing it stops all confusion and stuff like this happening
                    Last edited by corkie123; 08-01-14, 14:29.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      If you had taken back all your sb I would have said call, leaving some, raise.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                        I would take the 1k on top of the 100 chip as a raise to 1100.

                        1k chip on its own with the 150 taken back = call.
                        This. And I cannot see how anyone could argue against it
                        Turning millions into thousands

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                          This. And I cannot see how anyone could argue against it
                          JP could
                          No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Dave,

                            If you feel like it, you could post this in the TDA forum as well.



                            You'll get responses from guys who attend the tda summit every two years and help to draft the rules.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                              I would take the 1k on top of the 100 chip as a raise to 1100.

                              1k chip on its own with the 150 taken back = call.
                              Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                              This. And I cannot see how anyone could argue against it
                              I've played the same way as Dave all my life. I rarely announce bets and generally let the chips do the talking. I've always did as he did and took it for granted as a raise and never been called on it til last year at some stage when it was ruled a call.

                              Not sure of the exact rule, but afair the ruling is based on placing one oversized chip into the pot. The chips you put out for the SB are no longer yours, as they are now in the pot, so regardless of whether you take anything from the pot or not, you're still only putting one oversized chip into the pot. If you remove the single chip, you've just left a 100 chip which isn't over the 50% rule for a raise, so it's deemed a call.

                              I think that's the general jist of why JP may have ruled it as a call

                              Comment


                                #16
                                think we had this discussion previously in March aswell http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...highlight=chip

                                FD's 2nd paragraph above is spot on I think

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                  think we had this discussion previously in March aswell http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...highlight=chip
                                  Yep, i didn't like the rule then, and i don't like it now but i can see where it comes from and why it's used. In the few games i've played in the casino up here, if someone makes a raise to say 425 and another guy puts out a 1k and 25 chip, it's automatically taken as a call and not even questioned becasue the players are just helping the dealer out with change the majority of the time. It's weird how things are perceived and how rules are ignored from club to club.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                    ... The chips you put out for the SB are no longer yours...
                                    Hmmm yea but they are in front of you, not yet in the middle and by taking one of them back and dropping the 1K the action is unambiguous.

                                    He says

                                    grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip
                                    So I can't see what the 100 hundred and the 50% raise has to do with it. Would it be different if it had been the bb and he took back 100 leaving 1200
                                    Turning millions into thousands

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                      So I can't see what the 100 hundred and the 50% raise has to do with it. Would it be different if it had been the bb and he took back 100 leaving 1200
                                      I'm not 100% myself, but i'm sure JP or BrianN explained it whereas there's some reason about taking 1 chip away and leaving an amount that's either above or below the 50% raise to determine whether it's a call or a raise. JP can probably tell me whether i'm sort of making sense or i've got the wrong end of the stick.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                        I would take the 1k on top of the 100 chip as a raise to 1100.

                                        1k chip on its own with the 150 taken back = call.
                                        I second this

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          If you pick up the 100 chip and drop it with the 1k its a raise, its a call the way you did it.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Not one for speaking much / announcing raises my self either. In this spot I pull back the 150, put the 2 * 25 chips back into my stack and push out the 1100 (one * 1k chip & 1 * 100 chip).

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                              If you pick up the 100 chip and drop it with the 1k its a raise, its a call the way you did it.
                                              Correct.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by TM2204 View Post
                                                Not one for speaking much / announcing raises my self either. In this spot I pull back the 150, put the 2 * 25 chips back into my stack and push out the 1100 (one * 1k chip & 1 * 100 chip).
                                                Ill be doing it like this from now on but IMO things like this just upset the game more as its an add on to an already added on rule that is useless. If someone puts a 5k or 10k chip into the pot by mistake or on purpose its in and thats the end off it.... it should be a raise. Why would this not be the case regardless if they are new to the game or not.

                                                BTW did I mention nobody had raised pre. This to me is a bigger factor.
                                                Sceaniro............ Button folds and i I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm.

                                                Is this also just a call.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by pppspecial View Post
                                                  Ill be doing it like this from now on but IMO things like this just upset the game more as its an add on to an already added on rule that is useless. If someone puts a 5k or 10k chip into the pot by mistake or on purpose its in and thats the end off it.... it should be a raise. Why would this not be the case regardless if they are new to the game or not.

                                                  BTW did I mention nobody had raised pre. This to me is a bigger factor.
                                                  Sceaniro............ Button folds and i I look at my hand place a chip on cards grab a single 1k chip and place it into the sb taking back just the 2x 25 chips leaving the 100 chip alongside the 1k chip without saying a word using the one arm.

                                                  Is this also just a call.
                                                  Thats a string bet

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I think by the way you made the bet, ie took out 2 x 25 chips, left the hundred in front and then added your 1k chip to the 100, then it is obvious to me that you are attempting to raise to 1100.
                                                    Surely common sense should prevail over rules when something is so obvious? And if there is a rule to outlaw this, I cant for the life of me,understand why people think this action is wrong and needs a rule to prevent it happening.

                                                    If your intention was to raise, and you have already said it was, and your actions in the pot would lead me to believe you were raising, all the dealer has to do is confirm with you that the 1100 is a raise. its not like you did a string bet or anything.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                      I think by the way you made the bet, ie took out 2 x 25 chips, left the hundred in front and then added your 1k chip to the 100, then it is obvious to me that you are attempting to raise to 1100.
                                                      what if he made a mistake and simply forgot the hundred was there? Or it was too close to someone else's chips that he assumed it belonged to them.
                                                      What if he is intending to call and you just forced a raise because he forgot about a chip?
                                                      You can't rule on someones intention, only by what they do. He placed one chip in the pot without saying anything.

                                                      Once the chips are in the pot they no longer belong to you. So if you throw in more they don't automatically get added to what you have already paid.

                                                      In a same situation if, for some reason, the player has 150 in small chips and a 25k (lets just say hes running real bad in a high roller event) would you be forcing him to bet 25100 when he is obviously calling?

                                                      Again, it's obvious to you that it is a call, but it is obvious to me that it is a raise, just the fact that 2 people can read his intention differently creates ambiguity, so the rules state, placing one chip in is a call this is not ambiguous.

                                                      As smoothcall suggests, if he picks up the 100 and then throws it in with the 1k then he is now throwing in 2 chips so its a raise.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                        what if he made a mistake and simply forgot the hundred was there? Or it was too close to someone else's chips that he assumed it belonged to them.
                                                        What if he is intending to call and you just forced a raise because he forgot about a chip?
                                                        You can't rule on someones intention, only by what they do. He placed one chip in the pot without saying anything.

                                                        Once the chips are in the pot they no longer belong to you. So if you throw in more they don't automatically get added to what you have already paid.

                                                        In a same situation if, for some reason, the player has 150 in small chips and a 25k (lets just say hes running real bad in a high roller event) would you be forcing him to bet 25100 when he is obviously calling?

                                                        Again, it's obvious to you that it is a call, but it is obvious to me that it is a raise, just the fact that 2 people can read his intention differently creates ambiguity, so the rules state, placing one chip in is a call this is not ambiguous.

                                                        As smoothcall suggests, if he picks up the 100 and then throws it in with the 1k then he is now throwing in 2 chips so its a raise.
                                                        Instead of quoting the 1st part of Connie's quote, why not quote the 2nd where he answered almost everything you asked?

                                                        Originally posted by connie147 View Post

                                                        If your intention was to raise, and you have already said it was, and your actions in the pot would lead me to believe you were raising, all the dealer has to do is confirm with you that the 1100 is a raise. its not like you did a string bet or anything.
                                                        If we're being a stickler for the rules, then surely the 2 bolded parts contradict each other? If chips don't belong to us, how can we take them back into our stack and then add to them?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                          Instead of quoting the 1st part of Connie's quote, why not quote the 2nd where he answered almost everything you asked

                                                          If we're being a stickler for the rules, then surely the 2 bolded parts contradict each other? If chips don't belong to us, how can we take them back into our stack and then add to them?
                                                          Cos I was only highlighting the fact that connie used the phrase "its obvious to me"

                                                          It has nothing to do with being a stickler for the rules. what is obvious to some isn't obvious to others. People will interpret vague actions differently. So we have to go by what is not vague. and that is the fact that he placed one chip in the pot.

                                                          No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it. Since he made no action to clarify which it was we cannot rule otherwise.

                                                          The chips don't belong to you, they belong to the pot. They are left in front of you for many reason: to help players follow the action and to speed up the game and so the dealer can conveniently make change.

                                                          just because staff do not prevent you making change from your own bets does not mean that is the purpose of them being there.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                            Cos I was only highlighting the fact that connie used the phrase "its obvious to me"

                                                            It has nothing to do with being a stickler for the rules. what is obvious to some isn't obvious to others. People will interpret vague actions differently. So we have to go by what is not vague. and that is the fact that he placed one chip in the pot.

                                                            No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it. Since he made no action to clarify which it was we cannot rule otherwise.

                                                            The chips don't belong to you, they belong to the pot. They are left in front of you for many reason: to help players follow the action and to speed up the game and so the dealer can conveniently make change.

                                                            just because staff do not prevent you making change from your own bets does not mean that is the purpose of them being there.
                                                            "100 people were surveyed, and they were asked 'Why did pppspecial simultaneously remove 2 x 25 chips while leaving a 1k chip beside his 100 chip in the pot?'. Top 3 answers are on the board"

                                                            He was attempting a raise - 92
                                                            He was calling - 5
                                                            Some other nonsense - 3

                                                            I'd imagine it's something along those lines. Rules are rules, but you don't have to fight to defend them religiously. There is definitely room for dealers to use their discretion in poker. If it wasn't obvious to the dealer, why can't he just confirm it's a raise. It's not an angle shoot, or he's not trying to get a read from other players. Depending on which dealer was at the table at the time, i'm sure there would have been many who would ruled it a raise without questioning it.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                              "100 people were surveyed, and they were asked 'Why did pppspecial simultaneously remove 2 x 25 chips while leaving a 1k chip beside his 100 chip in the pot?'. Top 3 answers are on the board"

                                                              He was attempting a raise - 92
                                                              He was calling - 5
                                                              Some other nonsense - 3

                                                              I'd imagine it's something along those lines. Rules are rules, but you don't have to fight to defend them religiously. There is definitely room for dealers to use their discretion in poker. If it wasn't obvious to the dealer, why can't he just confirm it's a raise. It's not an angle shoot, or he's not trying to get a read from other players. Depending on which dealer was at the table at the time, i'm sure there would have been many who would ruled it a raise without questioning it.
                                                              lol, now youve lost it.

                                                              It really isnt as simple as "oh well most people reckon youd be raising, so why not. "

                                                              The fact is the situation is vague. There is not room for dealers to use their discretion, because like poker players they don't always pay attention. They don't always remember that the blinds are 150 and not 50 and they aren't always sure whose chip that is.

                                                              If dealers are allowing raises without questioning it then they are poor dealers. And this country has a hell of a high percentage of poor dealers. just because a bad dealer doesn't know or enforce the rules doent mean we can just change the rules to suit the situation.

                                                              As JP highlighted in his other thread the TDA is moving to a position where players need to be more responsible and this is another situation where that is the case. The player was vague in his action and the rule needed to be implemented. He could've easily done a few things, speak or grab the chip and throw out two, but for what ever reason he did not.
                                                              If the dealer has to stop and interpret your actions then they are not clear enough, if if 92% of the time the dealer guesses correctly then it is still too vague. Actions need to be clear. Saying I raise, or deliberately placing 2 chips in the pot is clear.

                                                              Leaving one chip out which may or may not be part of the bet is quite simply not clear. If it were clear there would not be so many threads on the matter.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                lol, now youve lost it.
                                                                eh, no. You said this

                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post

                                                                No-one knows why he left the 100 chip there. Yes he might have deliberately left it there to raise, but it is also possible he might have forgotten about it.
                                                                and i disagree. If i was at the table, i would have 100% known it was a raise, so therefore i know why he left the 100 chip in there. There would be no ifs, buts or maybes. Not really sure what the rest of your post is about because i didn't mention anything about dealers guessing. Using discretion, or confirming the raise would be very acceptable. Anyways, not going to keep commentating on this because you loooove all poker rules and hate to hear a bad word said about any of them

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                  And this country has a hell of a high percentage of poor dealers.
                                                                  I would take issue with this statement. I don't know if you've played anywhere overseas but the standard of dealer in this country, in general, is extremely high in comparison with most other countries. You just need to look at how many Irish (or Irish trained) dealers and other staff are regulars on the EPT tour to realise that.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Lplate View Post
                                                                    I would take issue with this statement. I don't know if you've played anywhere overseas but the standard of dealer in this country, in general, is extremely high in comparison with most other countries. You just need to look at how many Irish (or Irish trained) dealers and other staff are regulars on the EPT tour to realise that.
                                                                    I worked EPT and WPT tours for a long time, Since '04 as well as in the states, South Africa and thoughout Europe.

                                                                    The reason there are so many dealers from such a small area is because we hire who we know. Its hard to get in if no-one knows you. And since most of the Irish dealers were taught by the British dealers from the Merrion and the Fitz they have been working together for years. 5 years ago there were hardly any Irish dealers on the circuit. Most were Austrian and American, that's because the people in charge were Austrian and American. Sure there were some not from those places but general rule of thumb is people prefer to hire people they know and trust.

                                                                    Besides, having worked an EPT isnt really a qualification to know the rules, or even know how to enforce them. And there are plenty of extremely high standard dealers who have never worked an EPT.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Hi Guys,

                                                                      I think Gareth has already said most of what I was going to say.

                                                                      Here's the rules which cover this situation...

                                                                      2: Player Responsibilities
                                                                      Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

                                                                      Because Dave didn't announce his bet, his intention is not clear.

                                                                      42: Oversized Chip Betting
                                                                      Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.


                                                                      Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot. If Dave had of taken all the chips out and put in the 1,000 and 100 chips this would be a raise to the full amount 1,100 if he doesn't announce something different.

                                                                      44: Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In
                                                                      If a player faces a raise and has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet, those chips (and any change due) may affect whether his betting response to the raise is a call or re-raise. Because several possibilities exist, players are encouraged to verbally declare their bet before putting out new chips on top of chips from a prior bet not yet pulled in.

                                                                      Because Dave must put more chips into the pot in order to make a call we don't know if Dave is putting the oversized chip in too...
                                                                      1: Raise
                                                                      2: Call
                                                                      3: If he's looking for change.



                                                                      Dave (and Tony) mentioned that he doesn't like to to talk when betting and he's right he doesn't have to announce his bet amount. The problem with this is because his intention is not clear, and I must rule it a call.

                                                                      The fact that Dave or any player for that matter may have small chips behind also does not come into play, when making my ruling.

                                                                      We often see players putting chips out to make the dealers job easy for making change.

                                                                      I guess the golden rule here #2 above, puts the onus on the player to make their intentions clear. It would also do every poker player no harm in reading the rules of the event that your playing in so you know what is and what is not allowed at the event your playing in. After all you are putting down large sums of money to play these game.

                                                                      The TDA rules is the most widely recognised rule which are in use in most major poker tours including WSOP, WPT and all Pokerstars tours. Some minor rules may vary between the different tour's e.g.

                                                                      29: At Your Seat
                                                                      A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.

                                                                      The WSOP use the last card rule, EPT and WPT use 1st Card.

                                                                      Nearly every rule set will have 95%+ of the TDA rules so if you read and know these rules when you play in a new venue all you to is ask the card room manager/TD if they use TDA rules and if they have any rules which differs from TDA.

                                                                      TDA rules can by found here http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts...ial-tda-rules/

                                                                      While were on the subject of rules. There's part of the following rule which I don't agree with and don't use.

                                                                      46: Accepted Action
                                                                      Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all tournament situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

                                                                      For me if the dealer give incorrect information about a players bet amount I'm not going to hold a caller to the full wager if it's discovered after.

                                                                      E.g. Player goes all in for 55,000 but the dealer miscounts his stack as 35,000 (counts 25k chip as a 5k chip).

                                                                      For me using rule 2

                                                                      2: Player Responsibilities

                                                                      Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

                                                                      The all-in player should speak up when the dealer makes the mistake and correct him before the caller acts.
                                                                      Last edited by JP Poker; 12-01-14, 00:57.
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                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                        Hi Guys,

                                                                        I think Gareth has already said most of what I was going to say.

                                                                        Here's the rules which cover this situation...

                                                                        2: Player Responsibilities
                                                                        Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

                                                                        Because Dave didn't announce his bet, his intention is not clear.

                                                                        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@My intentions are very clear....its a raise . In one action I have left 2 chips in the pot. With plenty off change in front off me... Im not a newbie either... I see this only as an option for angle shooting off some sort from an outside view.
                                                                        In 9 years off playing I have never been pulled up on this.

                                                                        42: Oversized Chip Betting
                                                                        Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.


                                                                        Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot. If Dave had of taken all the chips out and put in the 1,000 and 100 chips this would be a raise to the full amount 1,100 if he doesn't announce something different.

                                                                        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@You forgot to mention Dave has placed a single oversized chip into the pot retracting the 2x 25 chip amounts in the same action leaving a total off 1100 in the pot.. This excuse dont wash either.

                                                                        If I had left 1150 in the pot i would understand the call for a ruling but anything else is just play on.

                                                                        44: Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In
                                                                        If a player faces a raise and has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet, those chips (and any change due) may affect whether his betting response to the raise is a call or re-raise. Because several possibilities exist, players are encouraged to verbally declare their bet before putting out new chips on top of chips from a prior bet not yet pulled in.

                                                                        Because Dave must put more chips into the pot in order to make a call we don't know if Dave is putting the oversized chip in too...
                                                                        1: Raise
                                                                        2: Call
                                                                        3: If he's looking for change.


                                                                        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@Again i didnt need change and in order to make a raise off any sort ..... you do have to use an oversized chip. This is common sense surley.


                                                                        Dave (and Tony) mentioned that he doesn't like to to talk when betting and he's right he doesn't have to announce his bet amount. The problem with this is because his intention is not clear, and I must rule it a call.



                                                                        The fact that Dave or any player for that matter may have small chips behind also does not come into play, when making my ruling.

                                                                        We often see players putting chips out to make the dealers job easy for making change.

                                                                        I guess the golden rule here #2 above, puts the onus on the player to make their intentions clear. It would also do every poker player no harm in reading the rules of the event that your playing in so you know what is and what is not allowed at the event your playing in. After all you are putting down large sums of money to play these game.

                                                                        The TDA rules is the most widely recognised rule which are in use in most major poker tours including WSOP, WPT and all Pokerstars tours. Some minor rules may vary between the different tour's e.g.

                                                                        29: At Your Seat
                                                                        A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.

                                                                        The WSOP use the last card rule, EPT and WPT use 1st Card.

                                                                        Nearly every rule set will have 95%+ of the TDA rules so if you read and know these rules when you play in a new venue all you to is ask the card room manager/TD if they use TDA rules and if they have any rules which differs from TDA.

                                                                        TDA rules can by found here http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts...ial-tda-rules/

                                                                        While were on the subject of rules. There's part of the following rule which I don't agree with and don't use.

                                                                        46: Accepted Action
                                                                        Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all tournament situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

                                                                        For me if the dealer give incorrect information about a players bet amount I'm not going to hold a caller to the full wager if it's discovered after.

                                                                        E.g. Player goes all in for 55,000 but the dealer miscounts his stack as 35,000 (counts 25k chip as a 5k chip).

                                                                        For me using rule 2

                                                                        2: Player Responsibilities

                                                                        Players are expected to verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn, defend their right to act, keep cards visible, keep chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, speak up if they see a mistake being made, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, follow proper etiquette, and generally contribute to an orderly tournament.

                                                                        The all-in player should speak up when the dealer makes the mistake and correct him before the caller acts.
                                                                        How do I make the text above stand out as I have replyed to JP under his comments. Im useless with computers.

                                                                        This ruling is actually one off the worst I have seen to date with all these rule changes over the last few years. The social aspect IMO has really gone from poker because off these rule changes. To be brutally honest this is the exact reason I dont bother with live poker anymore unless its 10k+ and know quite a few more people in the same boat. People would rather do without the confrontation it creates.We have quite few options when its the big games and have no choice but to abide by these silly rules hence my need to bring it up.
                                                                        Nine years playing poker and today I have to change my ways.
                                                                        Last edited by pppspecial; 12-01-14, 11:45.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          I completely agree with you Dave. I think the ruling in my hand was poor but this one is worse.
                                                                          Fwiw I think JP runs a great tournament, himself and Christine are top class hosts and deserve every success that comes that way.

                                                                          However JP is becoming a stickler for the rules and imposing them out of their context. IMO if he is to become a world class TD he needs to have a rule saying the the TD will aspire to impose the rules as he sees the intent to be and as such can supersede all above rules and his say is final.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            If someone puts the chips in the pot there in, regardless if its out off turn or not. Once the chips are released from your hand there in. Mistake or not.

                                                                            If its 50% or more chips than the last raise,its a reraise. wheres this rule gone.

                                                                            Heres an example of JPS ruling in another sceaniro.
                                                                            Imagine you call not realising that UTG has raised. Ie. UTG raises 3xbig and sb completes the bb not realising UTG raised... now by your ruling sb intentions are not clear as he hasnt announced anything. Do you make him call the 3 big blinds the UTG has made it. Or can he take his chips back because its his first game and qualified for a 1k event through a series off freerolls. This is just nuts tbh.

                                                                            The way it sounds to me is feck common sense..././.If all else fails refer to rule 2 putting the blame back on the player.
                                                                            Its up to the dealer to be clear with pot counts etc etc is terrible also. when it should be the other way around. Yes we stump up big money for these games and in order to survive we should be getting no outside help from any third party which is clearly happening when you omit RULE 46..It also allows a massive angle shoot to happen......IMO

                                                                            It should be up to every player at the table to look after Their own game without any outside help in anyway.
                                                                            we are asked to (follow the action), (act in turn),(keep chips correctly stacked), (follow proper etiquette) so omitting this rule will penalise another player due to the carelessness off your employee.(could be a massive angle shoot) When it should be the players fault.The count is wrong by 20k and the all in winning player loses 20k chips he should off had. Thats something similar to pulling the plug years ago when playing cash to get a disconnection protection thingy where you just went to a show down.IN LIVE EVENT....... THE DEALER AND ANOTHER PLAYER COULD ANGLESHOOT THIS SO BAD. PLAYER A IS ALL IN FOR 115K CHIPS ....YEAH I CALL... SHOWDOWN LADS.....AK VQQ . PLAYER A WINS WITH A PAIR OFF KINGS. HOLD ON A SEC I HAVE 145K. SORRY JPS RULING IS 115K STANDS PLAYER B DELIGHTED WITH RESULT AS HE RETAINES 30 K MORE. UGGGHHH THIS IS JUST EVEN WORSE THAN THE ORIGINAL OP.

                                                                            as i said we stump up lots off money for these games it is our responsibility to looKOUT 100% our own games and follow action AT ALL TIMES REMEMBERING THERE IS A CERTAIN ETIQUETTE TO FOLLOW.
                                                                            EITHER OR online or live poker.

                                                                            Dm.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Arazi View Post

                                                                              However JP is becoming a stickler for the rules and imposing them out of their context. IMO if he is to become a world class TD he needs to have a rule saying the the TD will aspire to impose the rules as he sees the intent to be and as such can supersede all above rules and his say is final.
                                                                              I think this is an awful idea to let a TD interpret rules as they see fit, would surely lead to way more confusion as to what the actual rules are

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by ghostface View Post
                                                                                I think this is an awful idea to let a TD interpret rules as they see fit, would surely lead to way more confusion as to what the actual rules are
                                                                                It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
                                                                                In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
                                                                                In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).

                                                                                I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by pppspecial View Post
                                                                                  If someone puts the chips in the pot there in, regardless if its out off turn or not. Once the chips are released from your hand there in. Mistake or not.
                                                                                  Not true anymore. In some places (not all, and that itself is tilting!) if a player acts out of turn and puts chips into the pot he gets his action back and can take them out again!!

                                                                                  Now THAT'S NUTS...

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by TM2204 View Post
                                                                                    Not true anymore. In some places (not all, and that itself is tilting!) if a player acts out of turn and puts chips into the pot he gets his action back and can take them out again!!

                                                                                    Now THAT'S NUTS...
                                                                                    If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
                                                                                    Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                                                                      If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
                                                                                      I know, think it's a shocking rule though. Apologies for going OT.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Arazi, I can't understand why you are so angry, or why you think a players "intent" is so important. Both of the situations are reasonably common and there are specific rules laid out in the TDA rules for them. You seem to think JP would become a world class TD by ignoring the TDA rules and attempting to infer players intentions whilst ignoring the actions they took.

                                                                                        The main reason we have official rules is so that players will get a common experience no matter where they play poker. Both of these situations are relatively clear cut and have specific rules regarding them, the problem lies not with the TD, but with players not reading/understanding the rules.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Hi Guys,

                                                                                          A few points following on from comments to my reply last night.

                                                                                          Regarding Rule 46: I will start a new thread later for that rule as I think it merits its own thread.

                                                                                          Dealing with the original post:
                                                                                          The dealer originally said it was a call, someone (I’m guessing Dave) called for a ruling. One of my supervisors ruled it as a raise and the hand played on. This supervisor came to me to discuss the ruling as he thought he may have gotten it wrong. After explaining the situation to me, I informed him that he made an incorrect ruling.

                                                                                          Then I went to the table (not knowing who was involved in the rule) and explained that an incorrect ruling was made in the last hand and explained what the correct ruling should have been.

                                                                                          Regarding the rule itself:
                                                                                          The oversized chip rule has been in the TDA rule set for a number of years, but how it should be applied to this specific situation was clarified for me in 2011. Prior to that, I would have ruled it a raise.

                                                                                          I remember at that time when the new rule set was published, I was working EPT Barcelona and we (floor staff and newly appointed EPT President) were discussing the rules and we were spilt almost 50-50 on if this situation was a call or a raise. I can’t remember exactly who was on which side of the fence, I do remember that I thought it was a raise and Luca Vivaldi thought it was a call. Anyway, long story short, we got in touch with the TDA to clarify the situation and they confirmed it was a CALL.

                                                                                          The example they gave was something similar to one that Flushdraw gave in a different thread about his local club in Donegal where the players try to make it easier for the dealers to give change.

                                                                                          Example given:
                                                                                          Blinds are 300-600, folded to SB who removes 2 x 100 chips and places a single 1,000 chip into the pot. Using the 50% raise rule he would have to make it 1,200 but using the oversized chip rule it’s just a call.

                                                                                          Whether we like the rule or not, the rule itself can be debated, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is the correct ruling in this situation according to TDA rules.
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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                            It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
                                                                                            In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
                                                                                            In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).

                                                                                            I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.
                                                                                            Hi Ciaran,

                                                                                            The rule with Dave is covered by one rule, the oversized chip rule.

                                                                                            I see where you are coming from with the above statement regarding the quasi rule. The rules I listed above if followed could have also prevented the OP situation from happening.

                                                                                            The reason rule 1: Floor Decisions (Interest of fairness) exists is because no rule set can cover all possible situations at a poker tournament and sometimes multiple rules can be broken at the same time which contradict each other.

                                                                                            In both rulings at my Xmas Cracker, there is a rule in place to deal directly with these situations. I think if I had have ignored the correct rulings in both situations and went with what I thought the players' intent was, I think more players would have thought I got wrong.

                                                                                            In your ruling, if the player announced all-in and then placed 5,100 in the pot would you have expected me to rule he was all-in or that a bet of 5,100 stands?

                                                                                            In Dave's ruling, now he knows it for the next time he plays live.
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                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              If Dave put in 1k without touching the 150 SB, its a Call.
                                                                                              Had he taken the entire 150 SB back, its also a Call.

                                                                                              The ambiguous nature of the action here comes from the fact that he had left 100 taking only the 2x25 chips back. From reading the OP, the 1000 chip was put in first and then the 2x25 removed immediately. And although the blind was changed, the 100 was untouched which imo means it remains inactive in the bet and no different to 1k on top of a full SB.
                                                                                              As other have suggested, something as simply as lifting the 100 into his hand and putting it down along with the 1k would be enough to cement the two chips as together as a raise.

                                                                                              A few people have mentioned the issue of intent. If I was at the table I'd have no doubt as to what his intent was, and usually I'd rather see common sense prevail and a players intent stand. However, because this is a common situation (action reaching the SB unraised), ruling this a raise creates a repeated opening to angleshoot. I'm not for a second suggesting Dave was angleshooting, just that somebody else might chance his arm and retract his SB extra slow in future.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                It is as they see fit but only in the best interest of the tournament.
                                                                                                In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was. Even still JP has roughly mingled a quagmire of rules together to manufacture a quasi rule to say this is a call, absolutely wrong IMO.
                                                                                                In my own case he says that he believes the players intention was to bet 10200 but rules it to be a bet of 2200. What annoyed my most thou was that when I spoke to JP afterwards and was explaining the action leading up to the players bet he simply said that it was all irrelevant to the ruling. If it is then the person making that ruling cannot be considered a top class TD (as JP certainly has the potential to be).
                                                                                                I believe JP should say that if u play his tournaments the rules shall be X but that the final rule which supersedes all others is that the TD will apply the above with the exception of his qualified interpretation of the players intent. If that was the case we wouldn't have to listen to TD's hiding behind the rule book.
                                                                                                Honestly !!! JP comes out and admits his Floor man has ruled incorrectly, explains why to the table inorder to put the record straight, comes on here to explain and debate it and still people are unhappy. I probabally would have ruled it a raise also but having it explained above its been deemed a Call by TDA and by application by some of the top TDs in the world including JP (not just potentally) surely this makes it clear " its a call " and yes we know he intended to Raise but we have all done that, thrown in a big chip forgetting to say Raise .
                                                                                                Just my 2p
                                                                                                cheers Liam
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                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

                                                                                                  Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

                                                                                                  Five players limp for 300 preflop.
                                                                                                  SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
                                                                                                  1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

                                                                                                  Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

                                                                                                  This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                                                    Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

                                                                                                    Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

                                                                                                    Five players limp for 300 preflop.
                                                                                                    SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
                                                                                                    1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

                                                                                                    Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

                                                                                                    This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?
                                                                                                    Unfortunately it would seem at every stage.

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      the rule is in place so the dealer doesn't need to ask. It is a call no question.

                                                                                                      There is no ambiguity in the rule. If there is ambiguity then issues occur.

                                                                                                      The rules in place are to eliminate the ambiguity. If it is one chip it is a call. If it is more than 1 chip its a raise. The dealer doesn't ask what you are doing because it is already defined by the rule.


                                                                                                      The rules are freely available worldwide on-line and have been for a decade at least. Any new players or old players can get hold of them and any one organising a game can have access to them, you don't need a membership to use them.

                                                                                                      In fact it is even easier now than even 2 or 3 years ago as apps and pdfs of the rules are free, rather than having to print a copy off.

                                                                                                      It is then up to the organisor how strict they will be enforced. All new players make mistakes so it is normal to be forgiving when a player makes a 1st few errors. But after a while you are expected to know and accept that there are consequences if you don't.

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                                                        Just one more question on the Dave Masters scenario. Ok, so some players think its a raise, and some deem it a call, but is there a problem with the dealer asking Dave what his intention was?

                                                                                                        Problem I see with this now is that some of the learned that frequent here (not neccessarilt IPB members, but lurkers, can now start to use this rule as an angleshoot to see a cheap flop.

                                                                                                        Five players limp for 300 preflop.
                                                                                                        SB does what Dave Masters did, ie takes out 50 from his sb and adds 1000 chip.
                                                                                                        1 player calls for a ruling because he knows this TDA ruling.

                                                                                                        Is it wrong then for the dealer to say to the sb: "is that a raise or a call" ?

                                                                                                        This is definately an interesting ruling as it does happen quite a lot. And where as JP can come on here and educate the interested people/players, its totally different when a rule like that is implemented at a lower level where players dont even know about the existance of the TDA rules. At what stage does common sense and fairness get over-ruled by the rules?
                                                                                                        Hi Connie,

                                                                                                        I find it's best to start when new players start. No point in them getting into bad habits.

                                                                                                        When a new player comes into my club, I normally ask them a few questions like...

                                                                                                        How did you here about us?
                                                                                                        Where do you normally play? Ect

                                                                                                        You'll know fast enough if the player is a newbie or not.

                                                                                                        At this point I'll explain the basic's. I'll tell his table that he is a new player and that were going to explain the rules to him as he goes along.

                                                                                                        Normally you'll find that the players are all very helpful with this. As he/she makes mistakes we ask them what they were trying to do and allow it but explain the rule to them.

                                                                                                        The biggest mistakes you normally find are string bets, acting out of turn ect. The first night is normally a free pass unless they break the same rule over and over.

                                                                                                        Let me stress the place for this is in a cheap friendly game not a mid to high buy-in.

                                                                                                        Players are expected to have enough knowledge by the time they start playing at these levels.

                                                                                                        I'd also like to point out if I feel that the player has zero knowledge I normally tell them play a few home games with their friends (or to come back and play on our cheapest night). I explain to them that they'll just lose their money and won't enjoy themselves as they will mostly likely be making mistake after mistake. I also strongly advise against players playing cash at this point and will also not allow some players to play cash.

                                                                                                        Some people might think this is foolish of me to turn away business, but I think long term this makes the most sense. No point in a new player starting with a real bad experience and losing a ton of money and never playing again.
                                                                                                        Last edited by JP Poker; 17-01-14, 21:25.
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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                          Hi Guys,

                                                                                                          A few points following on from comments to my reply last night.

                                                                                                          Regarding Rule 46: I will start a new thread later for that rule as I think it merits its own thread.

                                                                                                          Dealing with the original post:
                                                                                                          The dealer originally said it was a call, someone (I’m guessing Dave) called for a ruling. One of my supervisors ruled it as a raise and the hand played on. This supervisor came to me to discuss the ruling as he thought he may have gotten it wrong. After explaining the situation to me, I informed him that he made an incorrect ruling.

                                                                                                          Then I went to the table (not knowing who was involved in the rule) and explained that an incorrect ruling was made in the last hand and explained what the correct ruling should have been.

                                                                                                          Regarding the rule itself:
                                                                                                          The oversized chip rule has been in the TDA rule set for a number of years, but how it should be applied to this specific situation was clarified for me in 2011. Prior to that, I would have ruled it a raise.

                                                                                                          I remember at that time when the new rule set was published, I was working EPT Barcelona and we (floor staff and newly appointed EPT President) were discussing the rules and we were spilt almost 50-50 on if this situation was a call or a raise. I can’t remember exactly who was on which side of the fence, I do remember that I thought it was a raise and Luca Vivaldi thought it was a call. Anyway, long story short, we got in touch with the TDA to clarify the situation and they confirmed it was a CALL.

                                                                                                          The example they gave was something similar to one that Flushdraw gave in a different thread about his local club in Donegal where the players try to make it easier for the dealers to give change.

                                                                                                          Example given:
                                                                                                          Blinds are 300-600, folded to SB who removes 2 x 100 chips and places a single 1,000 chip into the pot. Using the 50% raise rule he would have to make it 1,200 but using the oversized chip rule it’s just a call.

                                                                                                          Whether we like the rule or not, the rule itself can be debated, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is the correct ruling in this situation according to TDA rules.
                                                                                                          surely you must take into consideration with this rule that at this time the blinds were v150 /300 so by taking back the 2 x25 chips and putting out 1000 chip leaving the 100 chip out there it saying im raising not calling .

                                                                                                          i always thought 1 chip was a call unless told otherwise and 2 chips was a raise

                                                                                                          1/ the example you give is ok with the blinds given but not with what the blinds were when this happened
                                                                                                          Last edited by corkie123; 18-01-14, 01:30.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by corkie123 View Post
                                                                                                            surely you must take into consideration with this rule that at this time the blinds were v150 /300 so by taking back the 2 x25 chips and putting out 1000 chip leaving the 100 chip out there it saying im raising not calling .
                                                                                                            i always thought 1 chip was a call unless told otherwise and 2 chips was a raise
                                                                                                            the example you give is ok with the blinds given but not with what the blinds were when this happened
                                                                                                            Correct my if I'm reading this wrong.

                                                                                                            Your understanding (intention for a better word), if the above situation happen and the Blinds are...

                                                                                                            150-300
                                                                                                            You would rule it a raise to 1100

                                                                                                            but if the blinds are

                                                                                                            300-600
                                                                                                            You would rule it a call
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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                              Correct my if I'm reading this wrong.

                                                                                                              Your understanding (intention for a better word), if the above situation happen and the Blinds are...

                                                                                                              150-300
                                                                                                              You would rule it a raise to 1100

                                                                                                              but if the blinds are

                                                                                                              300-600
                                                                                                              You would rule it a call
                                                                                                              yes i would take it as a raise at 150 /300 blinds

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by corkie123 View Post
                                                                                                                yes i would take it as a raise at 150 /300 blinds
                                                                                                                So what your saying is you would rule differently at two different stages of the tournament even thou the player did the exact same thing.
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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  no sorry i would not
                                                                                                                  if same happened then min raise would be at 300/600 blinds but just saying when dave done what he did the blinds were 150/300 and the 1100 bet would have been a clear raise to me .

                                                                                                                  but i always tell people if they want to raise say raise or pointing up wards to dealer which would leave dealer know what your intentions are no dispute then

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                                    In this case it's quite obvious what Daves intention was.
                                                                                                                    Just reading this now, and the only that is clear is that nothing is clear!

                                                                                                                    Originally posted by The Aul Switcharoo View Post
                                                                                                                    If someone changes the action by raising they get there option back. Change the action does not include calling or checking.. Standard rule for a while.
                                                                                                                    This is a good rule as it enforces maximum punishment on the early mover. If you want to bluff all in in-adavnce then you still can as he gets all his options back. if you want him to get chips in you can just call, see his raise and then re-raise, or you can fold.
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                                    Unfortunately it would seem at every stage.
                                                                                                                    But it is fair because the rules are the same for everyone.

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