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Old 28-07-10, 01:06   #1
Caf
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130+bb deep

This hand is from the 4k gtd 6max deep stacks game on stars with half hour blinds...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 22 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG (t6320)
MP (t7669)
CO (t3000)
Button (t10740)
SB (t6930)
Hero (BB) (t6780)

Hero's M: 90.40

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4, 4
1 fold, MP bets t100, 2 folds, SB calls t75, Hero calls t50

Flop: (t300) 4, K, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks

Turn: (t300) Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, MP calls t200, 1 fold

River: (t700) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets t550, MP raises to t6450,

Hero ???


Villain snap reraised on river leaving me with 30 behind if I call.


How was the hand played up until the river?

Just wondering is this a fold or call/shove?
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Old 28-07-10, 01:15   #2
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how was the hand played??

the hand was played brilliant
you got what you wanted
if you folded here iam going to sit into my car and drive upto nass or dublin or where ever the fuck it is you are and personally kick your arse.

tbh iam not worried about another set here i don't think we see it often enough to make a hero fold imo
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Old 28-07-10, 01:27   #3
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Any reply will be similar to eightballs. Snap call and fistpump when he shows KQ/AK.
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Old 28-07-10, 01:29   #4
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I'm never folding here. If your behind, its a cooler. In these kinda games, you need to get paid with your big hands. Bet you were wondering how were you going to get a good few chips in the pot and then ended up second guessing yourself. I'd imagine he shows up here with KQ or maybe 22.

In these deepstack games,and blinds so small, I think I lead out on that flop. Its nice to build a pot from early when you have a big hand.

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Old 28-07-10, 01:43   #5
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Thanks for the comments(I had figured this is what you would all say during the hand so I made the call fwiw).

I went into the tank over this one(180sec tank and used it all). Thought the only hand I would beat that makes such a ridic over bet would be KQ(or a donked 22 river set). I make it 11bb on river and he snap makes it 129bb. i haven't seen to many player do that with one/two pair tbh.

Is there defo no argument for folding here? I know it's a dream river, that no straight draws got there, but how wide is the range of such a monster bet that I can be infront of say AK/KQ v the 3 possible sets that beats me?


@eightball; lol it's Naas
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Old 28-07-10, 01:47   #6
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You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll
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Old 28-07-10, 01:51   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface ste View Post
You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll
okokok...there was 3 seconds left on the clock
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Old 28-07-10, 01:59   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface ste View Post
You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll
lol thought the same thing myself

there is no merit whatsoever for folding this hand imo at least not this early in the tournie, most of the players are made up of fish at this stage.

maybe i could find a fold closer to the ft or if it meant a big jump in money between 5th and 6th or something like that. and at that it would want to be a hell of a lot more scarier board imo.

cooler if he turned pocket 8's here, doubt if he turned pocket K's or Q's here but not impossible i spose
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Old 28-07-10, 02:09   #9
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I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

I don't think the river is nearly as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.
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Last edited by Sledgejammer; 28-07-10 at 02:14.
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Old 28-07-10, 02:18   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgejammer View Post
I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

I don't think the river is as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.

you would be surprised how often he turns AK or KQ here
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Old 28-07-10, 02:22   #11
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Id click time bank and do a quick sharkscope / OPR. If hes good I fold if hes bad I call
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Old 28-07-10, 02:26   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eight-Ball View Post
there is no merit whatsoever for folding this hand imo at least not this early in the tournie, most of the players are made up of fish at this stage.

maybe i could find a fold closer to the ft or if it meant a big jump in money between 5th and 6th or something like that. and at that it would want to be a hell of a lot more scarier board imo.
I have different mind set perhaps to this sort of thinking. I don't like putting large portions of my chips in in the early stages of a game(unless I'm in donking mode). I couldn't and wouldn't think twice about a snap call late in the game however, and would happily go broke on most boards at that stage of any game. This particular structure leaves for an incredible amount of play and I tend to do my most of play in position.

While I was tanking I was thinking, 'this is where I would be discussing the hand regardless of the result.' It's apparent than my line of thinking for ever folding this hand is wrong.
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Old 28-07-10, 02:33   #13
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Originally Posted by Bubbleking View Post
Id click time bank and do a quick sharkscope / OPR. If hes good I fold if hes bad I call
OPR was not great. 46% or something around that afaik. But ABI was quite low(I think $2.21).
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Old 28-07-10, 02:34   #14
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The stage of the tournament is irrelevant, it's either a call because it represents a positive return on our chip investment or a fold because it represents a negative one (Well unless ICM becomes an issue). It shouldn't change our decision, this is either a call because were ahead a sufficient amount of the time or a fold because we're not. Basing decisions on things like not wanting to gamble early or stuff like that is doing yourself a disservice and wont lead to you getting the best return on your tournaments.
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Old 28-07-10, 02:43   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgejammer View Post
I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

I don't think the river is nearly as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.
I agree that it's not going to win a big pot on this board to c/r.
My line was going to be c/c on flop and re-evaluate the turn. Leading turn cards like a suited Q or any cards than weaken the strenght of my hand, and checking blanks or cards that improve my hand. Bad line to take? (Obv villain decided to check behind and the hand played as above.)
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Old 28-07-10, 02:52   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caf View Post
I agree that it's not going to win a big pot on this board to c/r.
My line was going to be c/c on flop and re-evaluate the turn. Leading turn cards like a suited Q or any cards than weaken the strenght of my hand, and checking blanks or cards that improve my hand. Bad line to take? (Obv villain decided to check behind and the hand played as above.)
It's hardly terrible, but it's very difficult to build a pot like this. We're oop against the pre flop raiser and the opponent were most likely to get to put alot of money into the pot, if we check call we get to the turn without the betting initiative and a small pot. We need to build the pot with a hand like this and get him to put in as much money as possible so that by the river we can bet alot of chips and have it not be an overbet. If we lead the flop we get called relatively wide and get called by all the hands he pot controls with, so against a hand like 99 for example we can force him into a calling down guessing game rather than let him control the size of the pot. If he has a big hand the pot'll get big anyway.

In general, slowplaying this deep by check calling out of position is just never good. They check back dry boards alot especially three way and even if they don't we still end up on the turn oop no initiative and a tiny pot not sure whether to check or lead. You can argue that this way the first player to act has to act before we do anything if the pfr bets but the con's way outweigh the pro's I think, and we just don't get enough money into the pot which is not what we want with a huge hand like this.
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Old 28-07-10, 03:32   #17
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This is never 22 ever, dont know how people think thats in his range.

No idea what the standard in these tournaments is like but i think this is a higer set almost always against most people.
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Old 28-07-10, 03:58   #18
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Originally Posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
This is never 22 ever, dont know how people think thats in his range.

No idea what the standard in these tournaments is like but i think this is a higer set almost always against most people.
I didn't think it was 22 either tbh, unless he's a total fish he's never calling the turn with 22.

Your second point is what I'm looking for. I tanked because I really only thought it was only KQ that I beat, and I'm behind the three other hands that make this play. His check behind on the flop was made what me think villain is more likely to have 88, KK or QQ. Why would villain not Cbet such a dry board unless he flopped a monster...maybe(QQ would prob check behind too)?
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Old 28-07-10, 05:32   #19
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This isn't an snap call at all, all the responses so far are from people not thinking the hand through, just relying on learnt rules, ie never fold sets.

This is situation where although you have a strong hand, relatively speaking it's quite weak. Assuming your opponent is value raising (and he is in anyway competent), you are never good here. The only hand that's that shove the river are sets, and you have the worst possible set. (He is unlikely to have 22 on the river, and he is super unlikely to shove it all in considering he will know he isn't going to get called by anything he beats).

He could be bluffing, but this is a very strange line to take with a bluff. If he wanted to win the pot he would usually c-bet, and the raise is much bigger than he needs to make. Still you can't rule it out completely.

The argument for calling is that your opponent may be a moron, and have decided to either make a retarded bluff, or that he is so bad as to overvalue KQ, AK, AA or some random 2 pair hand hugely. He has to not only overvalue them but to not cbet them (which would be weird), not raise the turn with them (which would be a little strange) and then go mental with them on the river, which would be very weird.

If I was playing this hand my decision would rest solely on what I thought of the villain. If he had done anything donkish I would call. Its only a tough decision because the fact that he makes such a huge overraise means he is more likely to be a donk than a normal raise. (Although you would obviously call a normal raise since you would be getting much better odds and he is more likely to be bluffing.) I'd put him pretty firmly on QQ
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Old 28-07-10, 14:07   #20
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Well, if people are saying we should fold the near top of our range(88 would be the strongest hand we can have here), isn't this a great spot for a bluff? Though if he had air he could just make it 2000 and put pressure on our Kx type hands and not risk his tourny is he's called.

All the same, how many people are capable of doing that? What does he expect us to call off over 100bbs with?

Folding would tilt me for a week, but so would calling and being showed KK/QQ/88. I think it's QQ or some weird spazz, flip a coin and decide I suppose.

Last edited by Moneymaker; 28-07-10 at 14:10.
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