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Old 19-07-10, 22:14   #21
Starvin Marvin
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Originally Posted by gorrrr72 View Post
If no live player gave any other live player credit for some poker skill then we'd just all be fish and that's clearly not the case. You only need to sit down at most monthly games to see how many guys are playing for a living.
The last time I went broke early in a tournament was about a year ago where I got it in with KK v a set of 7's
Can't win a tournament in the first level or 2 and I find if you chip up or down by 20% or so it doesn't make a big difference to how far you go.
Well in the last 2 live tournaments ive played for a total for 23 hours play, 3 players impressed me and maybe 25+ were noticeably retarded at poker.

The standard isnt improving live imo and nobody plays live for a living over here. Or at least not many.
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Old 19-07-10, 22:36   #22
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I pretty much agree with everything Starvin Marvin has said.

Fwiw, I think folding KK on that board is pretty terrible in the long run.

How often is the villain going to show up with a set, as opposed to draws, smaller overpairs?

And calling the 3bet with 88 is pretty meh.
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Old 19-07-10, 23:32   #23
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Originally Posted by sligboi View Post
As has been mentioned, and shown to be true in this hand, we don't always get them to stack off when we do hit our set.

As a rule of thumb I would usually look for a stack behind + pot : costs of seeing a flop ratio of around 20:1 to allow myself to set mine. This can vary depending on my view of the player I'm up against.

Considering it's a 3bet pot in the first hand of the night (UL to win first hand don't you know ) you've got to know you're up against a monster!!
Yeah thats being results minded, in a live game ppl will find it really really hard to fold an over pair on an 8 high flop.
Meh it may be a leak.

Here's good read from 2+2

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...ge=0&fpart=all
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Old 19-07-10, 23:43   #24
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Originally Posted by Maloney View Post
Yeah thats being results minded, in a live game ppl will find it really really hard to fold an over pair on an 8 high flop.
Meh it may be a leak.

Here's good read from 2+2

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...ge=0&fpart=all
It's true though..what if he has ace king and completely whiffs the flop. If we are calling just to hit a set then we're letting him take away pots that are rightfully ours. This is exactly what we are doing in this situation because we are oop and the plan is to wither c/r or c/f depending on us hitting a set..

Tbf I don't think I can find a fold here as, apart from the heart draw, it's a very unconnected flop with no two pr possibilities.
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Old 19-07-10, 23:52   #25
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Originally Posted by Maloney View Post
Yeah thats being results minded, in a live game ppl will find it really really hard to fold an over pair on an 8 high flop.
Meh it may be a leak.

Here's good read from 2+2

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...ge=0&fpart=all
That article was a good read but it for calling with suited connectors. This was someone calling 13bb preflop with a midpair in the first hand of a tournament.
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Old 20-07-10, 00:01   #26
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Originally Posted by gorrrr72 View Post
That article was a good read but it for calling with suited connectors. This was someone calling 13bb preflop with a midpair in the first hand of a tournament.
Yeah i never said it was anything to do with that hand. Thats why i put it after what i wrote.

And on that hand he called 13bb pre with 147bb behind?
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Old 20-07-10, 00:17   #27
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Originally Posted by Maloney View Post
Yeah i never said it was anything to do with that hand. Thats why i put it after what i wrote.

And on that hand he called 13bb pre with 147bb behind?
Sorry, just reread your post.

My problem investing too much to set mine is this:

1) When you don't hit you could be check folding the best hand. When you do hit you are not gauranteed in getting the implied odds that you called for in the 1st place.

2) If you don't have the discipline to fold if you miss, and then call a cbet you are pxssing away even more chips because again you might fold the best hand on the turn having put 30% or possibly more of your stack in.

3) If the flop comes all undercards do you still checkfold? How much more of your stack do you invest to try and find out if he has an overpair?

4) You miss and checkfold. The very next hand you are dealt the same hand and the same raise comes into you. What do you do now?
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Old 20-07-10, 00:22   #28
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In the hand in question there is also another player behind the guy with 88, increasing the implied odds of 88 if he calls. And most live players would call there for "value" (guy folded but we couldn't know that), so i don't think that flatting 88 is toot bad in this specific case.
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Old 20-07-10, 00:28   #29
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Originally Posted by gorrrr72 View Post
Sorry, just reread your post.

My problem investing too much to set mine is this:

1) When you don't hit you could be check folding the best hand. When you do hit you are not gauranteed in getting the implied odds that you called for in the 1st place.

2) If you don't have the discipline to fold if you miss, and then call a cbet you are pxssing away even more chips because again you might fold the best hand on the turn having put 30% or possibly more of your stack in.

3) If the flop comes all undercards do you still checkfold? How much more of your stack do you invest to try and find out if he has an overpair?

4) You miss and checkfold. The very next hand you are dealt the same hand and the same raise comes into you. What do you do now?
Yeah i agree with u on alot these points man, its one area i need to work on, and it is a leak id say i call 2many 3bet's with small pp.

But i do think that if u can get correct odds and can set mine correctly it can be very profitable esp Live since ppl find it very hard to fold overpairs
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Old 20-07-10, 00:32   #30
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set mining oop should be left until a few hours into a session where everyone is extra deep after rebuying/stacking others etc.
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Old 20-07-10, 01:00   #31
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Originally Posted by Maloney View Post
Yeah i agree with u on alot these points man, its one area i need to work on, and it is a leak id say i call 2many 3bet's with small pp.

But i do think that if u can get correct odds and can set mine correctly it can be very profitable esp Live since ppl find it very hard to fold overpairs
I agree, in fact if the 3bet was to 425ish I would make the call. The KK guy in this hand made a raise that should have been enough to get a smaller pair either fold or call a big raise pre without getting the right odds to continue.
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Old 20-07-10, 07:53   #32
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Lads great discussion. Its probably a leak at a higher level but I was convinced I would get paid if I hit. In this case I didnt and thats why I posted it as I was genuinely surprised. I probably gave off tells that I was very strong and hero was good enough to fold without even calling the reraise. Maybe should have flatted or if I knew that he was a v good player I dont think I call preflop oop.

It was a small gamble first hand to try and get a nice stack for the rest of the tourney. I'm genuinely folding if I dont hit as I dont have him on AK. As you see from the initial replies to the posts a lot of players will get it in with KK in this spot. Good to hear people's views though.
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Old 20-07-10, 12:13   #33
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Originally Posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
Silly fold imo unless he had a soul read on you.
He has check raised, how is this a silly fold, explain?
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Old 20-07-10, 12:16   #34
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Originally Posted by NerdControl View Post
He has check raised, how is this a silly fold, explain?
his range for check raising includes more flush draws /overpairs / air than hands that beat us so in the long run im not sure if folding KK there is +EV

Dont be results orientated when thinking about a hand
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Old 20-07-10, 12:17   #35
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[QUOTE=Starvin Marvin;119166]Well in the last 2 live tournaments ive played for a total for 23 hours play, 3 players impressed me and maybe 25+ were noticeably retarded at poker.
QUOTE]

How many of the so called 25+ finished ahead of you though? I presume none, otherwise you may fall into a particular category yourself. It's fascinating that you have such perspective on the game given the sheer lack of creedence to the amount of rubbish that you have posted here.
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Old 20-07-10, 12:23   #36
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Originally Posted by Bubbleking View Post
his range for check raising includes more flush draws /overpairs / air than hands that beat us so in the long run im not sure if folding KK there is +EV

Dont be results orientated when thinking about a hand
I agree with your range opinion but preflop call and check raising with air is not the hand I could ever put him on.
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Old 20-07-10, 12:59   #37
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You all looneys folding the 88 there. Im not too happy about being oop but Im still peeling and not only to hit a set.
Also I dont get it-it seems like the dude decided the range of hands he was up against was basically hands that had him in bad shape and made a reasonable fold.I wouldnt fold there but I think its ludicrious to jump in blind and say lolbadfold etc Like there are defo people I would in theory fold KK to a cr on a board like this. I guess its what makes so many theory threads esp live not that usefull.
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Old 20-07-10, 13:36   #38
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You all looneys folding the 88 there. Im not too happy about being oop but Im still peeling and not only to hit a set.
4 different types of flop, what do you do on each taking into consideration you are oop?

1. K Q 10 rainbow

2. 5 6 7 of spades (you have two red 8s)

3. 2 6 10 rainbow

4. A K 8 rainbow

Just wondering..
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Old 20-07-10, 13:41   #39
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Originally Posted by sligboi View Post
4 different types of flop, what do you do on each taking into consideration you are oop?

1. K Q 10 rainbow

2. 5 6 7 of spades (you have two red 8s)

3. 2 6 10 rainbow

4. A K 8 rainbow

Just wondering..
im actually happy enough to peel early in the tournament with 88 as in the overall sense of tournament play its not that big a dent in your stack and the benefits of hitting and stacking villain far out weigh the negatives of missing. anyway to answer your question

1. c/f
2. maybe call 1 barrel
3. maybe call 1 barrel
4. c/r for sure calling a shove
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Old 20-07-10, 14:00   #40
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im actually happy enough to peel early in the tournament with 88 as in the overall sense of tournament play its not that big a dent in your stack and the benefits of hitting and stacking villain far out weigh the negatives of missing. anyway to answer your question

1. c/f
2. maybe call 1 barrel
3. maybe call 1 barrel
4. c/r for sure calling a shove
Flop 1 and 4 happen the least and are the easiest decisions.
Flop 2 puts you in a world of hurt if you miss the turn
Flop 3 puts you in a world of hurt if the turn is a blank

I try and give myself easy decisions so I guess I'm a looney

More often than not you will have 1 overcard and your decisions are harder because the pot is already big so any c-bets are generally bigger.
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