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Old 08-12-11, 22:47   #81
Arazi
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Do the maths. I'll stand over each of those statements. We can all learn alot from this thread, I know I have, but some (and I'm not aiming this @ you) have their head so far up their arse that they'll never learn.

I looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
If we're against 2 smaller pairs we have 33%.
If we have SB dominated and button has ATC we're only 47% or so. And if we have them both dominated we're just over 50%.
If either of them have the big pair we're crushed.
AQ doesn't play well enough 3 handed aipf to make statements like "we have SB's range crushed", IMO anyway.
Sometimes in tournament poker it pays to be prudent.
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Old 08-12-11, 22:53   #82
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Did you look at the times the sb folds his widish range to our shove and we go up against the button with the extra dead money in the pot.
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Old 08-12-11, 22:54   #83
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Old 08-12-11, 23:04   #84
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Originally Posted by ikilldurrr1 View Post
Did you look at the times the sb folds his widish range to our shove and we go up against the button with the extra dead money in the pot.
No but that's one of the things that I'm taking from the thread. In my first post I think I said that the SB would have to be a clusterfuck to call 25% of his stack and then fold to a BB shove, yet later in the thread 2 of the posters I'd respect most said that they would play the hand in such a way with the bottom of their range.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:11   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
I looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
No we don't. Nowhere near that. we need 33% 3 way and 50% heads up, we can also trade one vrs the other.
You can't mention that there are sides pots then go ahead and completly ignore it for the purposes of calcs. The numbers above are useless.
Over two thirds of the chips are in a heads up pot which massively effects the odds needed.
You are assuming that he never folds to our shove (i'm happy enough to assume that and put the tiems he does down as +EV for me)

You need to do two calcs
28*[equity 3-way] + 54[equity v SB] - 35


Can somebody do a stove on some ranges for me.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:16   #86
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Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
I meant to be back here sooner,





The fact that you are giving him of a lol-range of KK+ 80% of the time and want to fold a strong hand is exactly the reason why its a good play to flat wide.
my 80% was abit rash. but my line on this spot is i dont want to lose over half my stack by shoving into trouble. you prob dont take me seriously but i grind a living mtt online and would never call the button shove if i was sb unless i was trapping
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Old 08-12-11, 23:23   #87
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I didn't ignore it in my calcs, I done the calcs in my head when replying to your post on page one and unfortunately I didn't strain my brain hard enough to take the sidepot calcs into consideration, I just said that they'd prob give me a multiplier of 1.15/1.3 but that prudently I'd fold. I didn't properly consider SB folding which was obviously a mistake.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:26   #88
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Arazi this is the 2nd thread you've questioned people's intellect. Give it a rest mate, as you've said yourself these threads are for people to learn. This happens a lot easier and without as much derailment when people question each others theories and arguments, not their intellect.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:26   #89
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Originally Posted by imidg View Post
my 80% was abit rash. but my line on this spot is i dont want to lose over half my stack by shoving into trouble. you prob dont take me seriously but i grind a living mtt online and would never call the button shove if i was sb unless i was trapping
Id have thought that this was a default play for the majority of decent players, putting a figure on it maybe 75% plus?
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Old 08-12-11, 23:31   #90
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@imidg
What you would do in the SBs spot is largely irrelevant. We are only interested in what other players do.

@Azari
You say you didn't ignore it. But then say you didn't take the sidepot calcs into consideration???
I'm not saying you should have in you head, i'm just pointing out that the side pot changes the 42% figure a lot. We never have 42% 3 way with AQ.

33% vs 42% is a bit difference.
It's basically a question of ranges, if peoples opinions of what to do are differing so much I'd imagine that the opinions on ranges will equally differ. So no calc will resolve anything.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:40   #91
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Originally Posted by sligboi View Post
Arazi this is the 2nd thread you've questioned people's intellect. Give it a rest mate, as you've said yourself these threads are for people to learn. This happens a lot easier and without as much derailment when people question each others theories and arguments, not their intellect.
Nah in fairness it's probably more than that. In this thread I certainly don't mean to insult anyone but some people could certainly improve themselves as players by being more openminded. There are alot of insults thrown around in this thread, directly at some posters in quite sly ways.
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Old 08-12-11, 23:59   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
@imidg
What you would do in the SBs spot is largely irrelevant. We are only interested in what other players do.

@Azari
You say you didn't ignore it. But then say you didn't take the sidepot calcs into consideration???
I'm not saying you should have in you head, i'm just pointing out that the side pot changes the 42% figure a lot. We never have 42% 3 way with AQ.

33% vs 42% is a bit difference.
It's basically a question of ranges, if peoples opinions of what to do are differing so much I'd imagine that the opinions on ranges will equally differ. So no calc will resolve anything.
what i would do myself in the sb is completly relevant thats why i would be very weary of the sb flat 60bb is very deep in this tourney i dont like to risk chips unless i know there gonna have to make a decision , btw i would call a sb shove
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Old 09-12-11, 01:04   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
Do the maths. I'll stand over each of those statements. We can all learn alot from this thread, I know I have, but some (and I'm not aiming this @ you) have their head so far up their arse that they'll never learn.

I looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
If we're against 2 smaller pairs we have 33%.
If we have SB dominated and button has ATC we're only 47% or so. And if we have them both dominated we're just over 50%.
If either of them have the big pair we're crushed.
AQ doesn't play well enough 3 handed aipf to make statements like "we have SB's range crushed", IMO anyway.
Sometimes in tournament poker it pays to be prudent.
I am Captain Prudence in tournys! Yet I still agree with shoving with AQ over the top of sb flat, especially if it is online as there a so many players who just so below par in these spots, they see 10bb button shove and will flat any ace,kj kq and any pair, without even thinking what if bb reshoves and when bb does shove they fold everytime unless they have TT, Ak or better. Thats alot of times you get hu with dominated button with extra equity. I will say tho AQ is the bottom of my range here for a reshove.

I think once someone works out the numbers for this Arazi you will see a new light on this spot and maybe perhaps you will be the one who is more open minded to a shove with AQ because it's going to be closer to a shove than you think.

Also, the fact that this is the Ipops where you have about a thousand recreational players playing the event it's certainly a reshoving spot as it's one of the biggest leaks in a recreational players game. Even if the numbers come so close that maybe your line of thinking could be better play by a small margin, I still shove because in a field like this with it's size, fast structure, bad players and my edge knowing ranges better than most I've got to stick it in here, all these variables are apart of this hand and will without notes saying otherwise make this a +ev shove.

Now where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shit

Apologies for my intro tone to the thread too, was no need for it. I was on hooker tilt, you no when your like fuck this shit, fuck that, fuck everything & everyone sort of tilt?..well yeap that's the one.
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Old 09-12-11, 01:43   #94
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reason i joined/post IPB so i can see analysis/viewpoints fron accomplised (spelt wrong fek it) players and although I do get the odd 'lol' and '^^' comment i am not deterred..

so can you clarify the shove?

1. is it to isolate small stack?
2. are you happy if sb calls?
3. are you happy to 'race' sb ?
4. i know you wont be results orientated but surely stack sizes come into play?

i suggested a flat and assess flop with a 50% 'intent' to shove the rest on flop

this i felt gave another option

as we know he had KK now then sb obv shove flop but if he (sb) had small/med pair and flop was 'dangerous' ..after all you didnt shove so your range is very wide from pairs to connectors etc etc which then opens up the sb check then you shove option

as you stated (blaaah) a lot of ppl in this wont be thinking that deep and also looking at not busting and cashing rather than going deep

feel free to slate my thgts as thats only way i will learn but remember the LOL's at min raising not so long ago !!

I have a tough skin...go for it
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Old 09-12-11, 02:07   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
Now where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post
You need to do two calcs
28*[equity 3-way] + 54[equity v SB] - 35

Can somebody do a stove on some ranges for me.
I got some ranges stove'd so can fill in the blanks above.

So I gave SB a range of 77+|AT+|KQ (7.5%) of hands and the button 60%. These were just an estimate in my head of we prob need.
Our equity is 35.6% and 50.3% for 3-way and heads up respectively. Which works out at

28*[.356] + 54[.503] - 35
=+2.1k

If you adjust the SB range to 99+ it doesn't change out equity a huge amount. And its still +EV. He'd need a much tighter range to make shoving -EV
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Old 09-12-11, 02:21   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrunkenOne View Post
reason i joined/post IPB so i can see analysis/viewpoints fron accomplised (spelt wrong fek it) players and although I do get the odd 'lol' and '^^' comment i am not deterred..

so can you clarify the shove?

1. is it to isolate small stack?
2. are you happy if sb calls?
3. are you happy to 'race' sb ?
4. i know you wont be results orientated but surely stack sizes come into play?

i suggested a flat and assess flop with a 50% 'intent' to shove the rest on flop

this i felt gave another option

as we know he had KK now then sb obv shove flop but if he (sb) had small/med pair and flop was 'dangerous' ..after all you didnt shove so your range is very wide from pairs to connectors etc etc which then opens up the sb check then you shove option

as you stated (blaaah) a lot of ppl in this wont be thinking that deep and also looking at not busting and cashing rather than going deep

feel free to slate my thgts as thats only way i will learn but remember the LOL's at min raising not so long ago !!

I have a tough skin...go for it
while i dont really agree with a call in the bb,say we do surely if the sb cant find the raise button preflop if he misses he will check the flop then we can take it away, not a lol idea imo more than one way to skin a cat
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Old 09-12-11, 03:20   #97
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Originally Posted by ViperEyeIRL View Post
I think I much prefer reshipping AQ here than 99/TT also because we have blockers for AA/QQ, which decreases the combinations of "trapping hands", so most of the times we are crashing SB and still have 30% the few times he turn over KK.
If we are here discussing whether shipping or not AQ, then the SB should really call or reship superlight there vs us, given that we call only with top 3%.
Never folding.
Totally wrong, people put way too much importance in blockers IMO

You have 35% equity with AQ, 44% with TT - that's a pretty big difference

104,503,543,452 games 98.745 secs 1,058,317,316 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.062% 43.58% 00.48% 45540043582 506610209.33 { TT }
Hand 1: 20.079% 19.58% 00.50% 20462173917 521343813.83 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 35.858% 35.20% 00.66% 36788256353 685115576.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }

11,259,373,356 games 11.957 secs 941,655,378 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.738% 39.35% 00.40% 4430106059 44638021.67 { 99 }
Hand 1: 21.735% 21.31% 00.43% 2399256723 48263770.17 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 38.527% 37.83% 00.70% 4259293391 79186145.17 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }


---

2,411,156,286 games 3.005 secs 802,381,459 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.435% 33.59% 02.85% 809877549 68621124.83 { AQo }
Hand 1: 29.118% 28.93% 00.19% 697477093 4593674.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 34.448% 31.54% 02.91% 760406507 70180337.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
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Old 09-12-11, 13:32   #98
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No but that's one of the things that I'm taking from the thread. In my first post I think I said that the SB would have to be a clusterfuck to call 25% of his stack and then fold to a BB shove, yet later in the thread 2 of the posters I'd respect most said that they would play the hand in such a way with the bottom of their range.
From the sb here facing the 9bbs jam its fine to flat a decent range and fold if the bb shoves. The button should be shoving pretty much anything and when u flat here it'll take the bb waking up with an absolute monster before he gets involved, even you want to fold aq in his shoes here and arent comfortable wit ak! The vast majority of the time u get heads up with the button and other times u fold leaving yourself with 27bbs. As ive said i dont like rejamming here from the sb without a premium but im not folding a9+ in the sb here when its clearly goin to be printing money vs the button jam.

As for bein in the bb here, on reflection its probably closer than most people including myself said initially, but im never foldin aq in this spot, jus too nitty for me. You have to go with 99+ here. Although i might be a clusterfuck.
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Old 09-12-11, 13:33   #99
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What do we do if the SB flats playing 20 bigs, 23 bigs, 30 bigs 40 bigs 60 bigs??
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Old 09-12-11, 17:16   #100
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Originally Posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
Now where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shit
I got numbers that look a bit like this
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