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Old 01-12-11, 03:29   #41
danutpeddler
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Originally Posted by TheWitchDoctor View Post
Hand two: I'd 3 bet to 8750-8950 and if he clicks it back at us we can raise again so depending on villans 4 bet we should be 5 betting somewhere between 16-19k and if he shoves I'm more than happy to fold at that point. we also only cost ourselves 16-19k to have a very good idea of where we are as opposed to calling off 30,825k on the turn scratching our head
This is ludicrous stuff, there's no logic in folding pre for 16 - 19k (very tough to keep the pot that small btw) as opposed to seeing flop and turn in position for 14k.
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Old 01-12-11, 03:58   #42
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Originally Posted by danutpeddler View Post
This is ludicrous stuff, there's no logic in folding pre for 16 - 19k (very tough to keep the pot that small btw) as opposed to seeing flop and turn in position for 14k.
He is UTG +1 near the bubble so he either has a fairly strong hand or stealing with some kind of suited connected type hand to balance his range so I'm 3 betting here always, so he will obviously fold call or raise.
So if he 4 bets cause we are just guessing at this stage I'd advise a small 5 bet especially if you are not comfortable playing flops this late in a tournament and if he does 6 bet shove at this stage his range is pretty polarized and I think its an easy fold. Like of course you could always call the 4 bet in position but again if your not sure what to do on the flop and are looking to cash I prefer a 5 bet fold.

I also think the pot could easily be between 16-19 all depends on villans 4 bet but I do like clicking it back a lot so maybe thats just me..
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Old 01-12-11, 04:11   #43
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He is UTG +1 near the bubble so he either has a fairly strong hand or stealing with some kind of suited connected type hand to balance his range so I'm 3 betting here always, so he will obviously fold call or raise.
So if he 4 bets cause we are just guessing at this stage I'd advise a small 5 bet especially if you are not comfortable playing flops this late in a tournament and if he does 6 bet shove at this stage his range is pretty polarized and I think its an easy fold. Like of course you could always call the 4 bet in position but again if your not sure what to do on the flop and are looking to cash I prefer a 5 bet fold.

I also think the pot could easily be between 16-19 all depends on villans 4 bet but I do like clicking it back a lot so maybe thats just me..
Near the bubble is no time to start "seeing where you are?"
You'll find out pretty quickly that you are in fact, on the bubble!
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Old 01-12-11, 04:15   #44
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Near the bubble is no time to start "seeing where you are?"
You'll find out pretty quickly that you are in fact, on the bubble!
So what exactly do you prefer doing just calling pre?
I don't understand what you saying in the 2nd sentence??
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Old 01-12-11, 04:20   #45
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Hand one: I think we can bet smaller on the flop like 1100-1200 and then something like 1800-1900 on the turn and then if he shoves we can fold...

Hand two: I'd 3 bet to 8750-8950 and if he clicks it back at us we can raise again so depending on villans 4 bet we should be 5 betting somewhere between 16-19k and if he shoves I'm more than happy to fold at that point. we also only cost ourselves 16-19k to have a very good idea of where we are as opposed to calling off 30,825k on the turn scratching our head
Hand two. 5 bet folding jj with 32 bb is awful. 3 bet call villains ship.
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Old 01-12-11, 04:33   #46
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So what exactly do you prefer doing just calling pre?
I don't understand what you saying in the 2nd sentence??
What I mean is that if you are betting for info (which is never good) the bubble is the worst place to do it cause you'll be exploited beyond belief.


As played i prob 3 bet call with 30ish bigs, don't mind the call by hero, prob fold turn with that line.
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Old 01-12-11, 04:52   #47
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Hand two: I'd 3 bet to 8750-8950 and if he clicks it back at us we can raise again so depending on villans 4 bet we should be 5 betting somewhere between 16-19k and if he shoves I'm more than happy to fold at that point. we also only cost ourselves 16-19k to have a very good idea of where we are as opposed to calling off 30,825k on the turn scratching our head
If you are planning on folding to a shove then 5 betting is bad. Once we 5bet its has to go in.

I agree we always 3 bet. But your reasoning is basically 5bet/fold so we don't have to play a flop.
There shouldn't be much difference between his 4bet and 6bet shove range this shallow. Even with some air we fold out. Holding on to the 10k and folding to the 4bet is far better than 5 bet shove.
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So what exactly do you prefer doing just calling pre?
I don't understand what you saying in the 2nd sentence??
With the second sentence (I think) he means that 5betting "to have a very good idea of where we are" is especially bad on the bubble. It's just burning equity.
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Old 01-12-11, 06:27   #48
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Ok maybe I have this wrong but OP wanted his first cash in the sunday millions and besides just open folding the jacks, I thought 5 bet small/folding gave him the best chance to win the pot while minamilizing chip loss..
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Old 01-12-11, 07:55   #49
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I get that but he doesn't fold enough to the small 5bet in order to make it profitable IMO.
If you think we beat his shove range then get it in. If not then we can still 3bet/call profitably.

Personally, JJ beats his shove range this shallow
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Old 01-12-11, 10:10   #50
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Why take the stairs..
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Old 01-12-11, 12:44   #51
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My arguement is from a villains perspective (and considering stack sizes) would it be +EV to shove that turn with nearly 100% of his range given how hard it is for hero to find a call there? Im not just saying that from a results orientated point of view but the way I look at it is Hero can only call with 2 pair+ and AK (AQ?).

The hand in question may be a poor example but its a spot Iv thought of now and again where hero is nearly being forced to fold unless he is at the very top of his range.
you're on the right track with this, since regardless of whether villain is the type to fire again with air when an A hits or the type to keep balanced by firing thinnish for value (Ax,QQ+) he will likely be bet/folding this turn a lot.

however, you'd want to be sure that he isn't a station of course, and this spot shouldn't come up very often since you don't want to be flatting very often vs an EP open by a reg, but if you get to this turn with 88 or something as villain i like the idea of a shove over a second barrel.
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