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    #61
    Don't know this gingermilla bloke but I see some of the regs have vouched for him. His post is the worst form of passive aggressive flaming bs that ruins forums. He should apologise or be banned for an appropriate period of time.

    Comment


      #62
      JOHN SCANLON made a similar bad ruling at the Ladbrokes main event in Killarney last night.

      Four players see an ace high flop. First to act bets out and gets two callers, turn is dealt an 8. Last to act (who hadn't acted on the flop) now decides to fold.

      It is my contention that the turn 8 goes back into the deck, but JOHN SCANLON, for reasons best known to himself, ruled otherwise.

      This rule is standard at ANY live tournament I've ever played at. I wonder how this most venerable of TDs doesn't seem to have any knowledge of it?

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by entropy View Post
        JOHN SCANLON made a similar bad ruling at the Ladbrokes main event in Killarney last night.

        Four players see an ace high flop. First to act bets out and gets two callers, turn is dealt an 8. Last to act (who hadn't acted on the flop) now decides to fold.

        It is my contention that the turn 8 goes back into the deck, but JOHN SCANLON, for reasons best known to himself, ruled otherwise.

        This rule is standard at ANY live tournament I've ever played at. I wonder how this most venerable of TDs doesn't seem to have any knowledge of it?
        John is one of the best TD's in Ireland - I think your post is testament to the fact that even the best make mistakes the odd time

        Comment


          #64
          Nice thread Rory. It is important that we share bad experiences as well as good and certainly share bad decisions in tournaments so that everyone can learn.

          I would have liked the dealer in this situation to stop the player mucking out of turn before a ruling is made. All action should stop from the time a ruling is asked for and a ruling made.

          The player given 5k chips 'during the break' is absolutely crazy and Denise was right to over rule her TD. No allowances should be made that favor any player regardless of how regular they are, it goes to the heart of the integrity of the tournament.

          The is no question of sacking anybody here - it is simply a training issue. Sadly most of us learn from our mistakes or from watching decisions being made at our table. Anyone TD'ing what is Ireland's largest monthly game should be top notch.

          We have some of the best TD's in Europe on our shores, JP, John Scanlon, Carfax, Donal and Toby. I would like to hear from one of them on the subject.

          I think you are right to post this and i am sure the Fitz will take relevant comments on board.

          Comment


            #65
            I thought this was going to be about the transvestites.

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              #66
              Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
              I thought this was going to be about the transvestites.
              Now that's fuckin funny!! wp

              Comment


                #67
                I cant figure out why so many people think that this is the wrong ruling. IMO the ruling is 100% correct. The utg bet & Downtown called so action was on the bb. When the turn card was shown prematurely, if the bb wants to call, then & only then will the the remaining cards be dealt out face down and the exposed turn card be shuffled into the deck, then the turn is also dealt face down. The fact that the Q was shown prematurely makes no difference to the 2 who have acted already. The only thing I cant understand here is why utg would be so upset to have a Q show up as the turn card. Surely if you hold kk here ur saying to urself no ace, no ace, and would be happy to see a Q.
                The only thing that was wrong here was the awarding of the 5k chip to the utg player, when nobody was at the table to witness it, just to keep him happy because he was a reg.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by carlinrose View Post
                  I cant figure out why so many people think that this is the wrong ruling. IMO the ruling is 100% correct. The utg bet & Downtown called so action was on the bb. When the turn card was shown prematurely, if the bb wants to call, then & only then will the the remaining cards be dealt out face down and the exposed turn card be shuffled into the deck, then the turn is also dealt face down. The fact that the Q was shown prematurely makes no difference to the 2 who have acted already. The only thing I cant understand here is why utg would be so upset to have a Q show up as the turn card. Surely if you hold kk here ur saying to urself no ace, no ace, and would be happy to see a Q.
                  The only thing that was wrong here was the awarding of the 5k chip to the utg player, when nobody was at the table to witness it, just to keep him happy because he was a reg.
                  you got the ruling 100% right but for your thought that the first two dont matter after they acted while waiting on BB to act is wrong . once turn card is flopped out of turn then that card is dead and need to be reshuffled into deck after river card and burn card is dealt face down .then turn card is put back into deck reshuffled and dealt .

                  Comment


                    #69
                    If I'm TD I will ask the bb to act on the flop ignoring the turn card for the moment. If he calls we then burn/turn river face down and reshuffle turn, if he raises the other 2 players have their action back and we would then burn/turn the river facedown and reshuffle the turn. If the bb folds as he does I don't see any reason for changing the turn.

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                      If I'm TD I will ask the bb to act on the flop ignoring the turn card for the moment. If he calls we then burn/turn river face down and reshuffle turn, if he raises the other 2 players have their action back and we would then burn/turn the river facedown and reshuffle the turn. If the bb folds as he does I don't see any reason for changing the turn.
                      I could get on board with this ruling as well.
                      "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Keane View Post
                        How do you not know if the dealer was a man or a woman
                        ops I did not want to disclose who the dealer was but i am afraid the effect is opposite with he/she..btw I was the same table and i did not realize UTG got some chips back..
                        i find it unfair.. poker live is rigged more than online

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by entropy View Post
                          JOHN SCANLON made a similar bad ruling at the Ladbrokes main event in Killarney last night.

                          Four players see an ace high flop. First to act bets out and gets two callers, turn is dealt an 8. Last to act (who hadn't acted on the flop) now decides to fold.

                          It is my contention that the turn 8 goes back into the deck, but JOHN SCANLON, for reasons best known to himself, ruled otherwise.

                          This rule is standard at ANY live tournament I've ever played at. I wonder how this most venerable of TDs doesn't seem to have any knowledge of it?
                          I must talk this over with John (I'm working night cash down here so hadn't heard about this), but the ruling here makes sense if the TD can ascertain that the player folding was going to fold to the flop bet.... You have three players that have called, involved in a big pot on the turn, if the player was clearly going to fold to the flop bet this is the ruling that uses the most common sense imo.
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                            #73
                            Originally posted by corkie123 View Post
                            you got the ruling 100% right but for your thought that the first two dont matter after they acted while waiting on BB to act is wrong . once turn card is flopped out of turn then that card is dead and need to be reshuffled into deck after river card and burn card is dealt face down .then turn card is put back into deck reshuffled and dealt .
                            The utg & btn have acted before turn card was exposed, so if bb folds there is no more action on that round, & it's no advantage either way as this is the turn card now. However should the bb decide to call or raise then the exposed turn card has to be shuffled back into the deck after the remaining cards have been dealt out face down. The original turn card has the same odds of reappearing as the new turn card.

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                              #74
                              Originally posted by carfax View Post
                              I must talk this over with John (I'm working night cash down here so hadn't heard about this), but the ruling here makes sense if the TD can ascertain that the player folding was going to fold to the flop bet.... You have three players that have called, involved in a big pot on the turn, if the player was clearly going to fold to the flop bet this is the ruling that uses the most common sense imo.
                              Not going to argue the validity of the ruling Stephen, but, I do disagree with your logic and what you call "the ruling that uses the most common sense".

                              In this hand as in the EoM hand, players have acted on the flop and a player is getting to see the turn before making his flop decision ( I do understand the point that if the player then calls we will shuffle back in the turn card and redeal the turn). It seems odd to me that in this situation we have a different ruling dependent on whether the last to act player decides to call the flop bet.
                              "Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Am absolutely shocked that extra chips were introduced in this tourney and makes me question how often this happens unknown to other players in tournaments.

                                Ive only played this tournament 2 or 3 times but every time it has been run very professionally by the dealers and tds alike which makes it even more shocking. It looks very bad for the casinos reputation.

                                All we want really from TDs is consistency and sometimes we dont get that. It can be very frustrating but more than often it can come down to human error or ego takes over...in certain cases. Ive seen the exact same situations over and over and different rulings being made by different tds...but extra chips is totally disgraceful. No other player should get an unfair advantage over another player no matter who he is.

                                As for Rory i know him personally and hes 100% genuine. Nice Float u fish btw...lol

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                                  #76
                                  I was on the floor at the time of the above scenario. I don’t want to go into the way this has been portrayed by some people. And would just like to give a brief explanation and sincerely apologise for any bad feelings that have arose from this incident.
                                  On arriving at the table in dispute, it looked like a clear case of a prematurely dealt turn, (which is what this turned out to be) so no problem, and the correct procedure would have followed. Unfortunatley I have misunderstood what has been said to me and incorrectly ruled the hand be played out. With regards to chips being brought into play, yes it was a stupid idea and deemed so upon immediate discussion, and no extra chips ever played, and as far as I’m aware never have done in any other tourney. The original ruling made, although incorrect was made in good faith at the time.

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                                    #77
                                    Fair play for registering on IPB and telling your side of it.

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                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                      That dealing the river card face down rule has been changed afaik because obv all the players know 1 card the river be.
                                      I think this comment went under the radar a little bit in this thread. This is actually a very good point and one I had never thought of (ie. in the above example, if river is burnt and dealt face down and queen goes back in deck, deck is shuffled etc and turn is dealt players now know that the river cannot be the queen of clubs). It's the first I've heard of the rule being changed but I definitely agree it's the right thing to do in these situations.




                                      As for the added chips, that is just beyond crazy. It doesn't even begin to register how wrong that decision is. I think it was probably a case of "let's try keep everyone happy", but in the process, a ridiculous decision which makes no sense is made. The TD deserves the benefit of the doubt and it should be a case of live and learn, but just so long as everyone realises how grossly wrong and terrible this decision was.


                                      I also have to admit that hearing about a member of staff in any tournament giving extra chips to a player does leave a sour taste in my mouth. The fact this goes on at all and even crosses the minds of TDs does make me feel a bit uneasy. Also the fact that the chips were introduced in a way that had the least transparency possible is worrying. TDs make mistakes, it's human nature and it happens, I have no problem with that. But when a TD does something purposefully hoping that the other players in the tournament won't notice, that does worry me a bit. If the TD thought it was a legitimate decision at the time (and in hindsight, realised it was actually a bad decision), why the underhandedness? Why not just explain the decision to the table and give the player extra chips?

                                      I may be coming across as too harsh or unfair to the TD. I really do believe it was a just a momentary lapse of judgement, and the TD just wanted to keep everyone happy while creating the least amount of hassle and controversy. In this moment of bad judgement, the TD happened to make a shocking ruling. I do feel this is probably what happened, but I think it would be irresponsible to not point out the blatant bad feeling this decision can cause among players. I think it's the fact that doing something in a deceitful manner is in the TD's mind process at all is what the players find most bothersome.
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                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                        UTG is a victim of a poor ruling and is entitled to expect more from a €270 event. However the whole field is entitled to expect more from a €270 event.
                                        I agree that ruling was terrible and under no circumstances should chips have been given to reg but the larger EOM games are harder to police as some less scrupulous players squirrel large denom chips away for weeks before these games. Check the FT chipcount next time. May prove interesting..

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                          I agree that ruling was terrible and under no circumstances should chips have been given to reg but the larger EOM games are harder to police as some less scrupulous players squirrel large denom chips away for weeks before these games. Check the FT chipcount next time. May prove interesting..
                                          In Relation to this how many extra chips do you expect to be in play at the end of a tourny due to colouring up chips

                                          Comment


                                            #81
                                            Originally posted by pgodkin View Post
                                            In Relation to this how many extra chips do you expect to be in play at the end of a tourny due to colouring up chips
                                            Great question yet kinda impossible to answer.

                                            Considering it's a 45 runner freezeout played 9 handed with a 10K SS.
                                            I't not impossible to say that you may lose one 25 chip to round-up per table on the first colour-up. 5x25=125.

                                            At the second colour-up we have lost three tables and lets consider we're losing an average of two 100 chips to round-up per table. 2x2x100= 400.

                                            So by the FT in this case we should only be out 500 chips.

                                            Comment


                                              #82
                                              Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                              I agree that ruling was terrible and under no circumstances should chips have been given to reg but the larger EOM games are harder to police as some less scrupulous players squirrel large denom chips away for weeks before these games. Check the FT chipcount next time. May prove interesting..
                                              Are you serious? How would they do this?

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                                                #83
                                                Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                Are you serious? How would they do this?
                                                Pretty simple. Say there's a pony game that nobody really cares about and you FT. 5k chips are introduced and players agree to go for a smoke etc. Palm one 5K chip per week until you have a few built up then bingo. If/when you make an FT to a monthly event just introduce them on your way to the FT...not that I condone those sort of antics.

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                                                  #84
                                                  Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                                  Pretty simple. Say there's a pony game that nobody really cares about and you FT. 5k chips are introduced and players agree to go for a smoke etc. Palm one 5K chip per week until you have a few built up then bingo. If/when you make an FT to a monthly event just introduce them on your way to the FT...not that I condone those sort of antics.
                                                  Dont want to derail this thread but if what you say is the norm then these casinos will need to introduce different chips for different games. Makes me sick to think that ppl are doing this.
                                                  http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

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                                                    #85
                                                    Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                                    Great question yet kinda impossible to answer.

                                                    Considering it's a 45 runner freezeout played 9 handed with a 10K SS.
                                                    I't not impossible to say that you may lose one 25 chip to round-up per table on the first colour-up. 5x25=125.

                                                    At the second colour-up we have lost three tables and lets consider we're losing an average of two 100 chips to round-up per table. 2x2x100= 400.

                                                    So by the FT in this case we should only be out 500 chips.
                                                    But wouldn't Poker room Managers notice this??? if there is 20k / 30k extra would it not set alarm bells ringing, don't forget it's in the club's interest to make sure the game is run right or else you end up with threads like this


                                                    Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                    Are you serious? How would they do this?
                                                    I would follow your logic here


                                                    Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                                    Pretty simple. Say there's a pony game that nobody really cares about and you FT. 5k chips are introduced and players agree to go for a smoke etc. Palm one 5K chip per week until you have a few built up then bingo. If/when you make an FT to a monthly event just introduce them on your way to the FT...not that I condone those sort of antics.
                                                    Ok i understand the above but putting 5k chips into your stack only enter's into it when there are enough 5k chips in play not to notice, so if i was grinding a small stack and then had 5/10 extra 5k chips i would assume someone would notice, I would notice ffs as i'd prob be shoving into him alot



                                                    Originally posted by Ziggin&Zaggin View Post
                                                    Dont want to derail this thread but if what you say is the norm then these casinos will need to introduce different chips for different games. Makes me sick to think that ppl are doing this.
                                                    I have to say in fairness to the Voodoo, they use different chips for different games also they are very good at recording the number of chips in play and do a count at the end of every game... They also took a note of what you came to the final table with as well (they use to do this). This is one of many thing's i could never fault them on and other's could do with following the same practie


                                                    ---------------------------------------------

                                                    As Rory said it was all sorted out and in fairness to the fitz I don't think this would be a regular thing as for the TD lesson learned if nothing else and will prob be a better TD for it, we all learn through our mistakes

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                                                      #86
                                                      Here's a little puzzle.

                                                      Count the total chip count of the WSOP ME FT. Divide your answer by 30,000.
                                                      With this figure subtract the actual number of entrants. Multiply this figure by $10000...

                                                      Comment


                                                        #87
                                                        Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                                        Here's a little puzzle.

                                                        Count the total chip count of the WSOP ME FT. Divide your answer by 30,000.
                                                        With this figure subtract the actual number of entrants. Multiply this figure by $10000...
                                                        I didnt do the maths, but are you taking into account chipping up the smaller chip values etc throughout the levels?
                                                        ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                                                          #88
                                                          GOD DAMN! They short about tree fiddy
                                                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                          Comment


                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by iSnow View Post
                                                            Here's a little puzzle.

                                                            Count the total chip count of the WSOP ME FT. Divide your answer by 30,000.
                                                            With this figure subtract the actual number of entrants. Multiply this figure by $10000...
                                                            Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                            I didnt do the maths, but are you taking into account chipping up the smaller chip values etc throughout the levels?
                                                            as above plus there is a certain % held back for dealers as well not sure how much but it is noted on the WSOP website (can't access here in work)

                                                            Comment


                                                              #90
                                                              Originally posted by pgodkin View Post
                                                              as above plus there is a certain % held back for dealers as well not sure how much but it is noted on the WSOP website (can't access here in work)
                                                              This is subtracted from buyin not chip surplus

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                                                                #91
                                                                Eurgh FML!!!!
                                                                Last edited by Micknail; 04-10-11, 21:54.
                                                                ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #92
                                                                  Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                                  I didnt do the maths, but are you taking into account chipping up the smaller chip values etc throughout the levels?
                                                                  That is a factor but not much

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                                                                    #93
                                                                    I hate bad internet connections!
                                                                    Last edited by Micknail; 04-10-11, 21:53.
                                                                    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                                                                      #94
                                                                      Chips at final table: 205,925,000

                                                                      6865 * 30,000: 205,950,000

                                                                      Just out 25k chips. Seems ok to me

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                                                                        #95
                                                                        I really hate bad internet connections!
                                                                        Last edited by Micknail; 04-10-11, 21:54.
                                                                        ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                                                                          #96
                                                                          I'm having a groundhog day moment.

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                                                                            #97
                                                                            Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                                                            GOD DAMN! They short about tree fiddy
                                                                            That damn loch ness monster

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                                                                              #98
                                                                              Originally posted by entropy View Post
                                                                              JOHN SCANLON made a similar bad ruling at the Ladbrokes main event in Killarney last night.

                                                                              Four players see an ace high flop. First to act bets out and gets two callers, turn is dealt an 8. Last to act (who hadn't acted on the flop) now decides to fold.

                                                                              It is my contention that the turn 8 goes back into the deck, but JOHN SCANLON, for reasons best known to himself, ruled otherwise.

                                                                              This rule is standard at ANY live tournament I've ever played at. I wonder how this most venerable of TDs doesn't seem to have any knowledge of it?
                                                                              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                              John is one of the best TD's in Ireland - I think your post is testament to the fact that even the best make mistakes the odd time
                                                                              Entrophy, where you involved in this hand?

                                                                              I was discussing the hand at the weekend and imo, it was a clear case of angleshooting by the player kicking up a lot of stink. The last player to act was folding the flop, so the fact the turn was exposed to him, and he still folded shouldn't warrant any interference with how the hand should play out. If the 'now to act' player decides to call/raise having seen the 8, then i believe a ruling would have been made where the card gets shuffled back into the deck.

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                                                                                #99
                                                                                Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                Entrophy, where you involved in this hand?

                                                                                I was discussing the hand at the weekend and imo, it was a clear case of angleshooting by the player kicking up a lot of stink. The last player to act was folding the flop, so the fact the turn was exposed to him, and he still folded shouldn't warrant any interference with how the hand should play out. If the 'now to act' player decides to call/raise having seen the 8, then i believe a ruling would have been made where the card gets shuffled back into the deck.
                                                                                Sounds a lot different when the same hand is described from a different perspective. I am all for discretion in the interest of fair play when it comes to TD's decisions. John's a good TD and I would have a lot of confidence in his read of the scenario.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                                                  Sounds a lot different when the same hand is described from a different perspective. I am all for discretion in the interest of fair play when it comes to TD's decisions. John's a good TD and I would have a lot of confidence in his read of the scenario.
                                                                                  Let's call the player that wanted the card shuffled back in 'Grumpy' for convenience

                                                                                  Grumpy called pre with suited connectors, say QdJd. The flop comes out 2 of his suit so he naturally calls a bet. A black 8 on the turn is shown. Grumpy decides that this card in no way helps his hand and sees an opportunity to get a free spin at pulling another diamond out of the deck on the turn, so kicks up a fuss about how this card should go back in the deck and reshuffled despite it having no impact on the hand as it played out.

                                                                                  That's angleshooting imo (and giving away vital information about your hand).

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Just caught up with this thread now. Im pretty sure the introduction of a 5k chip to the reg by way of "compensation" was a brainfart by the floor person involved.

                                                                                    As for the ruling itself, I see nothing at all wrong with it. Before the TD got to the table, the bb anounced he was folding and discarded his cards. If thats the case, and from reading the posts, it is, then there is no reason whatsoever to change the turn card. The hand can now play out with the exact cards that were originally supposed to be the turn and river, and it in no way infringed on either player left in the pot.
                                                                                    What I dont understand is how the utg player felt he was so hard done by? What was so wrong that he felt he had to kick up a fuss?

                                                                                    As for the John scanlon ruling, I have to agree with Flushdraw here. There is no need to change the turn card unless knowing it is an advantage to someone. I cant see who had an advantage here?

                                                                                    This is the rule we have in the Cue Club. If the turn card is turned prematurely before the last player to act has a decision to make, and if that player declares they were going to fold to the action on the flop, then we dont change the turn card. The only time we differ is if the action has been checked all round on the flop and the turn card is turned before the last player acts, then we will burn and turn a river and shuffle the original turn card into the deck.
                                                                                    And as usual, if there is a better rule out there, we are always willing to look at it.

                                                                                    Connie

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