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    Looking for a ruling... wrong player awarded pot

    Wasnt involved myslef but a mate has asked for a ruling and im not 100% sure. Self deal pub game, all in situation, Player A has AQ and Player B A3, flop comes A3x, turn k, river K (giving Player A the better two pair). Player A had more or less given up on the flop, and on river pot is taken in by Player B, no one has noticed the error.

    Cards have been 'washed' and dealer is shuffling for a new deal, when one player belatedly cops that Player A should have won the pot.

    Player A now demands that Player B gives him back the pot but most players say that it's too late, saying that a new hand has started, also as it is self deal, no one was quite sure how much was in the pot etc, etc...

    What would be the correct procedure here? Thanks

    #2
    Chips returned to the player with the AQ.
    Should be easy to work out what the pot was with a count back and no 25's in play

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by HoneyMonster View Post
      Wasnt involved myslef but a mate has asked for a ruling and im not 100% sure. Self deal pub game, all in situation, Player A has AQ and Player B A3, flop comes A3x, turn k, river K (giving Player A the better two pair). Player A had more or less given up on the flop, and on river pot is taken in by Player B, no one has noticed the error.

      Cards have been 'washed' and dealer is shuffling for a new deal, when one player belatedly cops that Player A should have won the pot.

      Player A now demands that Player B gives him back the pot but most players say that it's too late, saying that a new hand has started, also as it is self deal, no one was quite sure how much was in the pot etc, etc...

      What would be the correct procedure here? Thanks
      for me its a case of "you snooze you lose".

      player A's fault and nobody else as it was a self dealt game.

      new hand is been dealt and nobody knowing what pot was etc so impossible to sort out after.

      obv different if its a friendly game.
      Last edited by japeye; 08-06-11, 17:17.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
        Chips returned to the player with the AQ.
        I think so too, but has a new hand not started so technically the chips cant be given back unless the player awarded them agrees??

        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
        Should be easy to work out what the pot was with a count back and no 25's in play
        Wasnt my game, you see if it was, it would have been easy to do a countback?

        Comment


          #5
          Yeah I'm with damo here player A gets it,

          to count back to pot just ask the td to pause the clock & take some time to think about it,

          How many people called pre-flop, was it raised & how many called or folded etc
          same for flop
          same for turn
          same for river

          Counting back is really not to hard when you just take a minutes & think about it whiles its fresh

          Player B is obviously not going to be happy but the hands were tables & the cards speak

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
            Yeah I'm with damo here player A gets it,

            to count back to pot just ask the td to pause the clock & take some time to think about it,

            How many people called pre-flop, was it raised & how many called or folded etc
            same for flop
            same for turn
            same for river

            Counting back is really not to hard when you just take a minutes & think about it whiles its fresh

            Player B is obviously not going to be happy but the hands were tables & the cards speak
            The problem is there was no td, the local barman sets it up each week and the regulars play, no reg etc, its a €20 Freezeout and usually passes off smoothly.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by HoneyMonster View Post
              I think so too, but has a new hand not started so technically the chips cant be given back unless the player awarded them agrees??



              Wasnt my game, you see if it was, it would have been easy to do a countback?
              Technically a new hand has started but no action has taken place so it's easy to pause play and sort out the mistake .
              Cards were on their back and everyone know's what the board was so the only issue is the amount to be returned .

              There was a similar thread here not too long ago about a situation in the Fitz where a player had walked away from the table after losing a hand and went downstairs , there was a hand completed at the table and in the process of a 2nd hand being dealt when the player arrived back having realised she had actually the winning hand . Play was stopped and the pot worked out and she rejoined the game .

              Comment


                #8
                Anyone got a link to any definitive ruling on this? Cant find any mention in Roberts Rules. Thanks.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                  Chips returned to the player with the AQ.
                  Should be easy to work out what the pot was with a count back and no 25's in play

                  just get dealers for yr games DAMO saves any hassle lol!!!!!!!!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by HoneyMonster View Post
                    Anyone got a link to any definitive ruling on this? Cant find any mention in Roberts Rules. Thanks.
                    Always thought the deadline for raising and sorting an issue like this was the second riffle of the deck prior to next hand starting so afaik player B keeps the chips..

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by limplimplimp View Post
                      just get dealers for yr games DAMO saves any hassle lol!!!!!!!!
                      Have to get players 1st

                      Comment


                        #12
                        My opinion would be in a self deal game you can't go back once the next deal has begun as there is an extra onus on the two players involved to speak up at the time. Discretion should be with the player who got the pot to give it back. However in a game with a dealer its clearly a dealer mistake if the pot is incorrectly awarded as the players have paid to have them there and the pot should be awarded after the hand if it comes to light within a reasonable time frame. That's only an opinion though not a ruling.
                        Last edited by jack90210; 08-06-11, 18:04.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          ive never actually seen this happen b4 but id imagine that whats done is done and cant be reversed once a new riffle has begun

                          Comment


                            #14
                            This should be all about common sense and fair play. If no action has taken place then I would expect the right player to receive the pot.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              No dealer, no td. Then Roberts rules dont come into it!! the only rules in force now at this game should be the rule of common sense. The next hand has not started. The best hand wins the pot. So just count back the pot and award the chips to the player that deserves it: ie the AQ man.
                              If the A3 man objects, then he is just angleshooting. But then again, do these players know what angleshooting is?

                              Connie
                              Last edited by connie147; 08-06-11, 19:19.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Theoretically, once a new hand has started, nothing can be done about the previous pot. But when the new hand starts is debatable. If the dealer was still just shuffling, I'd try to count back the pot and award it to the AQ. If a new hand has started and there has been chips put in the pot (ie a call or raise has already taken place), then there's nothing that can really be done.

                                If the A3 player really wants to be a dick, I'm sure he is entitled to keep the chips (if he simply says the turn-river came king-jack, it would be tough to take the chips off him).

                                Given the type of game that it is, the A3 hand should as accurately as possible count out the previous pot from his stack and give it to the AQ.


                                It's a tough spot because 'technically', the A3 should keep the chips, but everyone can see from a fairness point of view that AQ should get the pot. Hopefully A3 is decent and doesn't cause much hassle and does the fair thing. If A3 really pushes for it though, I'm sure he is entitled to keep the chips.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                  Theoretically, once a new hand has started...
                                  Not really, self deal so new hand starts on the first card being dealt.
                                  either way unless action has taken place, or the cards dealt out at least a new hand hasn't started.

                                  It's a tough spot because 'technically', the A3 should keep the chips, but everyone can see from a fairness point of view that AQ should get the pot. Hopefully A3 is decent and doesn't cause much hassle and does the fair thing. If A3 really pushes for it though, I'm sure he is entitled to keep the chips.
                                  No, technically or otherwise the AQ had the best hand at showdown. The A3 saying "ah sure its a new hand, it's riffled" just shows a total lack of decency, respect and understand of the game.

                                  Just because their is a rule that might be in your favour, doesn't mean it's ok to be a dick.

                                  A similar thing happen to me once when I started playing poker, missed that I made a house on the river to win. We only noticed after I rebought, and hand started, I agreed it was a too late and forget about it, but the other guy felt bad and kindly handed me over money that I spend on the rebuy.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                    Not really, self deal so new hand starts on the first card being dealt.
                                    either way unless action has taken place, or the cards dealt out at least a new hand hasn't started.


                                    No, technically or otherwise the AQ had the best hand at showdown. The A3 saying "ah sure its a new hand, it's riffled" just shows a total lack of decency, respect and understand of the game.

                                    Just because their is a rule that might be in your favour, doesn't mean it's ok to be a dick.

                                    A similar thing happen to me once when I started playing poker, missed that I made a house on the river to win. We only noticed after I rebought, and hand started, I agreed it was a too late and forget about it, but the other guy felt bad and kindly handed me over money that I spend on the rebuy.

                                    I agree with what you're saying, but TECHNICALLY (yes I agree it's still terrible form) the A3 can keep the chips. What's to stop A3 from claiming the board came king-jack at the end? It's one person's word against another's and since A3 has the chips in his stack already, I'm pretty sure if he kicks up enough of a fuss and makes outrageous claims such as collusion from the other players and the turn-river really was king-jack, then how can he not keep the chips?
                                    I agree that in practice, the AQ will usually end up with the chips, but all I'm saying is technically, if A3 really wanted to, he could surely keep a hold of the chips.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Ronpaul
                                      Anyone got a hotlink to any absolute cardinal on this? deceit acquisition any acknowledgment in Roberts Rules. acknowledgment.


                                      anyway.. my ruling would be that the player that opened his mouth to inform the table should have got a slap!
                                      D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Once the next hand has started, ie: cards have been riffled,
                                        the mistake can no longer be rectified & Mr. A3 is entitled to keep the pot.
                                        Common decency dictates that he offer to return the pot to it's rightful owner
                                        & it's hard to see the other players objecting to this,
                                        in purely legal terms however he's under no obligation to do so.

                                        Without this definitive marker in time a man could possibly return days later
                                        & demand a cash pot incorrectly awarded against him
                                        be returned by whoever benefitted from the mistake.
                                        You'd be risking a beating if you tried this in most places.

                                        My favoured angle-shoot in this case might be to claim the cards haven't been riffled ...
                                        given that it's self-deal I'd imagine a couple of overhand shuffles would be the norm.

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