Standard iso-shove. BTN will be shipping like 70-80% here, and assuming SB is capable enough to know this he probably calls with something like 55+,A5s+,A9o+,KTs+,KQo. If effective stacks were smaller I'd expect him to reshove a lot of this but given hes 35BB deep he may have thought it a bit too spewy with the more marginal hands in that range.
"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
opr quickly to see if he's a winning player. tbh its hard to see a good player flatting here with a hand that doesnt have AQ crushed. it just has to be a monster a lot of the time begging for the squeeze.
if SB reshoves are we calling it off pre? seems like a super high varience spot we could avoid in a soft field
opr quickly to see if he's a winning player. tbh its hard to see a good player flatting here with a hand that doesnt have AQ crushed. it just has to be a monster a lot of the time begging for the squeeze.
if SB reshoves are we calling it off pre? seems like a super high varience spot we could avoid in a soft field
You think he's folding 55-JJ/a10/aj to a 9bb shove?
Edit to say you prob think he'll reshove these hands yeah? The vast majority of the time we have no hand and fold. This means he gets to go HU vs btns shoving range for 9k instead of risking 35k if we wake up with a hand that can call his reshove.
opr quickly to see if he's a winning player. tbh its hard to see a good player flatting here with a hand that doesnt have AQ crushed. it just has to be a monster a lot of the time begging for the squeeze.
if SB reshoves are we calling it off pre? seems like a super high varience spot we could avoid in a soft field
Definetly calling a sb reshove here. His range should be fairly wide for value.
not yet ,why does an alternative option attract such surprise?
standard play is to shove to isolate, if he has 88+ he may recog that and call and you are racing for almost 50% stack
If he has AK, AA KK QQ JJ then hes calling regardless and you in bad shape
so hes likely calling all shoves?
with a flat and then shove ( you are /were planning to get chips in) the flop texture may induce a fold with your shove now and you only against the small stack pre flop shover for almost 30% stack increase?
he is active as NicNic states so 3 bet shove may get him to lay down and I would like to know his fold to 3 bet figures are as that would be useul as well
why do you find this option soo bad?
I am only an amateur so please forgive my thinking at times
tbh its hard to see a good player flatting here with a hand that doesnt have AQ crushed. it just has to be a monster a lot of the time begging for the squeeze.
^ this, very few players are sticking in 1/4 of their stack with the intention of folding.
I think you see QQ+ here too often.
I'd be folding this.
You should have no fold equity at all and you certainly don't crush the SB's range. AQo doesn't play well enough 3 ways to justify effectively calling this deep (35 BBs is deep IMO).
I'd be folding this.
You should have no fold equity at all and you certainly don't crush the SB's range. AQo doesn't play well enough 3 ways to justify effectively calling this deep (35 BBs is deep IMO).
What do you think the SBs range is, both right now and for calling our shove.
What do you think the SBs range is, both right now and for calling our shove.
I think his range would be something like 99+ AQ+, there'd be a range below this (66+, K10+, A8+ which should be jamming.
We should have no FE unless he's a clusterfuck and if he's one of them my ranges would be wrong anyway.
Okay you can take 9,9-Q,Q and A,k and even K,k out of his range here as he'd min raise the shove here! since you've an A its a blocker card so AA is highly unlikely im getting it all in here hes the guys shipping range is so wide any A Sb knows this and is calling loose, shoving here to isolate is the best way i put S,b on k,q even k,j mabe small pair original shover any A any K shove to isolate nice pot.
Okay you can take 9,9-Q,Q and A,k and even K,k out of his range here as he'd min raise the shove here! since you've an A its a blocker card so AA is highly unlikely im getting it all in here hes the guys shipping range is so wide any A Sb knows this and is calling loose, shoving here to isolate is the best way i put S,b on k,q even k,j mabe small pair original shover any A any K shove to isolate nice pot.
Dont agree with this although I stopped reading after the comment about min raising a 9bb shove out of a 35bb stack.
Lately I've been finding that this is always a big hand. In this spot I run into KK or AA a ridic amount of times in the last month.
But ya, iso shove all day and puke when it is AA again.
Edit: obv it's just variance with me so sticking it in is the right play. Can't be results based
completely agree at least 80% of the time ur walking in AA KK. even bad players flat with aa kk ,rather call a shove from the sb than shove here. so imo fold is the right play
Dont agree with this although I stopped reading after the comment about min raising a 9bb shove out of a 35bb stack.
? 35 bb stack is still quite deep so if you'd QQ, jj, 10,10 would u just call so BB can get in with over cards with pot odds , i think min raise here is standard with a good hand that's vulnerable. what would you do trap with your j,j makes no scence. explain as well please?
? 35 bb stack is still quite deep so if you'd QQ, jj, 10,10 would u just call so BB can get in with over cards with pot odds , i think min raise here is standard with a good hand that's vulnerable. what would you do trap with your j,j makes no scence. explain as well please?
completely agree at least 80% of the time ur walking in AA KK. even bad players flat with aa kk ,rather call a shove from the sb than shove here. so imo fold is the right play
80%... lol
people who advocate folding here need to man up. If I was in the SB, yes I'd flat with AA/KK to induce, but I'd also flat with the majority of the range I mentioned previously so when shoved on I'm folding a considerable amount of the time.. People just aren't gonna exploit me by shoving 35BB over my call often enough to worry about it.
"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
people who advocate folding here need to man up. If I was in the SB, yes I'd flat with AA/KK to induce, but I'd also flat with the majority of the range I mentioned previously so when shoved on I'm folding a considerable amount of the time.. People just aren't gonna exploit me by shoving 35BB over my call often enough to worry about it.
I have to say I'm quite surprised at this, not saying ur wrong just that I'm surprised. From your earlier range what are u folding and what are u calling the shove with knowing that BB is nicnicnic?
people who advocate folding here need to man up. If I was in the SB, yes I'd flat with AA/KK to induce, but I'd also flat with the majority of the range I mentioned previously so when shoved on I'm folding a considerable amount of the time.. People just aren't gonna exploit me by shoving 35BB over my call often enough to worry about it.
the sb flating here with anything less than aa kk maybe qq is such a bad play leaving himself open to a bb shove if the sb hasnt any of those hands and wants to play the hand he has to reraise the sb flating here is a big no no without a big hand
the sb flating here with anything less than aa kk maybe qq is such a bad play leaving himself open to a bb shove if the sb hasnt any of those hands and wants to play the hand he has to reraise the sb flating here is a big no no without a big hand
I agree 100% with this view but this mtt has so many players who have satted in and are of the 'dont wanna fold a pair' and 'if i hit trips' mentality as well hoping for a big pot to move up money ladder.Surely this should be considered inones actions?
? 35 bb stack is still quite deep so if you'd QQ, jj, 10,10 would u just call so BB can get in with over cards with pot odds , i think min raise here is standard with a good hand that's vulnerable. what would you do trap with your j,j makes no scence. explain as well please?
35bb isnt deep enough to min raise if your facing a 9bb shove. If you want to isolate then shove, if you want to induce then call, if you want to look like you have no clue what your doing or infact actually have no clue then min raise
Maybe is just levelling you and flatting to over-represent his hand. Anyway, it doesn't matter I would always reshove here (and also would have called a SB reshove)....considering that you would never flat there and you have close to zero FE when you shove (vs SB), it doesn't really make much difference for SB to call or reshove over the BTN push.
SB should reshove very light here, like KT+ , i think I would never ever fold AQ there.
"Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"
35bb isnt deep enough to min raise if your facing a 9bb shove. If you want to isolate then shove, if you want to induce then call, if you want to look like you have no clue what your doing or infact actually have no clue then min raise
I understand that min raising puts half your stack and that's the whole point and shoving doesn't get value from the range of hands that you'd do that with! seeing that the BB is 60 bb deep and weve seen the sb has a wide range, He would min raise/ reraise in this spot with a descent hand any way thats just my thoughts!!
I assume we're nowhere near the bubble or any money jumps or else calling and checking it down would be an option that I'd prob try. If not then I can't fold and can't flat so have to shove.
the sb flating here with anything less than aa kk maybe qq is such a bad play leaving himself open to a bb shove if the sb hasnt any of those hands and wants to play the hand he has to reraise the sb flating here is a big no no without a big hand
it's not horrible to flat pairs here lower then QQ with the intent on calling a shove from bb. Remember it's a 9bb jam. He could (in theory) be flatting with KJ/QJ suited. It's a shove for nick IMO. You're rarely to far behind the sb, most likely flipping and you have the button dominated almost always! So if we are flipping we have extra value from the button assuming we hit! Therefore making it a +ev shove i think.
From your earlier range what are u folding and what are u calling the shove with knowing that BB is nicnicnic?
Stoving this to find perfect flatting/reshoving ranges vs BB reshoving/shove-calling ranges would be a good exercise actually, cos assuming nicnicnic isn't gonna get out of line here very often his ranges are going to be pretty easy to define.
Just intuitively I'd feel fairly comfortable 3b-shoving {77-88, KQs, ATs}, going call/call with {99+, AJs+}, and going call/fold with {55-66, A5s-A9s, A9o-ATo, KTs-KJs, KQo}. Could be wrong to call/fold {55/66/ATo/KQo}, close though. So sorry not the majority of my range but a balanced portion.
the sb flating here with anything less than aa kk maybe qq is such a bad play leaving himself open to a bb shove if the sb hasnt any of those hands and wants to play the hand he has to reraise the sb flating here is a big no no without a big hand
Simple situation. Say you have 99 here in the SB. When you reshove over the BTN what does BB need to get involved? {99+,AQ+} maybe? So the times we're called we're not in great shape, right?
Now what if we flat the BTN shove instead.. We open up the door for BB to reshove something like {66+,A9s+}, a range with hands we actually beat in it. So obviously we're now in much better shape when we call it off rather than iso-shoving ourselves.
Can you explain, then, how flatting here without QQ+ is wrong?
"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
i presume because of the danger of BB flatting and you playing for your stack OOP on a flop thats highly likely to contain overcards. obv we are playing on the basis that having commited 1/3 SB is doing the loots thereafter. But not a great spot for him on a KQ flop.
[QUOTE=Winning!;452699]Stoving this to find perfect flatting/reshoving ranges vs BB reshoving/shove-calling ranges would be a good exercise actually, cos assuming nicnicnic isn't gonna get out of line here very often his ranges are going to be pretty easy to define.
Just intuitively I'd feel fairly comfortable 3b-shoving {77-88, KQs, ATs}, going call/call with {99+, AJs+}, and going call/fold with {55-66, A5s-A9s, A9o-ATo, KTs-KJs, KQo}. Could be wrong to call/fold {55/66/ATo/KQo}, close though. So sorry not the majority of my range but a balanced portion.
Simple situation. Say you have 99 here in the SB. When you reshove over the BTN what does BB need to get involved? {99+,AQ+} maybe? So the times we're called we're not in great shape, right?
Now what if we flat the BTN shove instead.. We open up the door for BB to reshove something like {66+,A9s+}, a range with hands we actually beat in it. So obviously we're now in much better shape when we call it off rather than iso-shoving ourselves.
Can you explain, then, how flatting here without QQ+ is wrong?[/QUOTE]
i obv play differently to you with a fair bit of sucess aswell. flatting here with less than QQ doesnt show strength. reshipping does show alot of strength. so im never flatting here unless i want the bb to reshove
The ppl trying to argue the sb has top of his range here is so tilting. Playing on a regular basis I see this spot all the time AQ is the nuts like 96% of the time. It's like everyone has the assumption that the sb is good and is trapping, wtf like where do you all get that from??? Last time I ran into a sb hand in this spot was prob a year ago jesus.
Sheer madness...shove the fucking loot in unless you have notes on the player. Some seriously over thinking going on here and ridiculous thought process for a simple re shoving spot.
everyone has the assumption that the sb is good and is trapping, wtf like where do you all get that from??? Last time I ran into a sb hand in this spot was prob a year ago jesus.
Hahaha, quality. Quote of the week candidate
"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
The ppl trying to argue the sb has top of his range here is so tilting. Playing on a regular basis I see this spot all the time AQ is the nuts like 96% of the time. It's like everyone has the assumption that the sb is good and is trapping, wtf like where do you all get that from??? Last time I ran into a sb hand in this spot was prob a year ago jesus.
Sheer madness...shove the fucking loot in unless you have notes on the player. Some seriously over thinking going on here and ridiculous thought process for a simple re shoving spot.
Pretty insulting reply for the OP and also to a lesser extent to some of those who've replied. AQ is the nuts like 96% of the time is so LOL, in fact its probably worse than the 80% figure thrown out earlier.
Pretty insulting reply for the OP and also to a lesser extent to some of those who've replied. AQ is the nuts like 96% of the time is so LOL, in fact its probably worse than the 80% figure thrown out earlier.
Ah no Jasons just tilted in Prague, must be freezing his balls off over there. I think he just mashed the keypad for that 96% figure though lol
"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
I jammed he had KK, was chatting with Derek Murray straight after the hand and he suggested it was a much more interesting spot then it seems on the face of it.
I think I'd much rather be calling a shove here from the SB and I do think given effective stack here, a lot of the time a flat is a big hand, not often enough to make it a fold but feel its closer then many think.
I jammed he had KK, was chatting with Derek Murray straight after the hand and he suggested it was a much more interesting spot then it seems on the face of it.
I think I'd much rather be calling a shove here from the SB and I do think given effective stack here, a lot of the time a flat is a big hand, not often enough to make it a fold but feel its closer then many think.
its very hard to lay down AQ in this spot but for those who say its an insta reshove and that if he has a monster well so be it well maybe you just learned something. i would be very very weary of the the sb flat and i to would rather call a sb reshove. a fold and move on to the next hand with 60bb whats so bad about that?
its very hard to lay down AQ in this spot but for those who say its an insta reshove and that if he has a monster well so be it well maybe you just learned something. i would be very very weary of the the sb flat and i to would rather call a sb reshove. a fold and move on to the next hand with 60bb whats so bad about that?
nothing if sb has KK all the time. anything other than shoving is bad imo. AQ is so far ahead of sb's range here. I see bad players flatting in this spot against buttons shove with hands like Ax, KQ etc that are only flatting so they can fold if the bb shoves.
The % of times we see a hand that has AQ crushed here is minuscule
nothing if sb has KK all the time. anything other than shoving is bad imo. AQ is so far ahead of sb's range here. I see bad players flatting in this spot against buttons shove with hands like Ax, KQ etc that are only flatting so they can fold if the bb shoves.
The % of times we see a hand that has AQ crushed here is minuscule
a caveat in my folding arguement was the SB had to be decent
nothing if sb has KK all the time. anything other than shoving is bad imo. AQ is so far ahead of sb's range here. I see bad players flatting in this spot against buttons shove with hands like Ax, KQ etc that are only flatting so they can fold if the bb shoves.
The % of times we see a hand that has AQ crushed here is minuscule
I made a comment on your IPO blog - I feel very hurt by how you miss-quoted me
nothing if sb has KK all the time. anything other than shoving is bad imo. AQ is so far ahead of sb's range here. I see bad players flatting in this spot against buttons shove with hands like Ax, KQ etc that are only flatting so they can fold if the bb shoves.
The % of times we see a hand that has AQ crushed here is minuscule
this is exactly why good players flat in this position maybe you assume most of the players are bad that flat here. high risk
Pretty insulting reply for the OP and also to a lesser extent to some of those who've replied. AQ is the nuts like 96% of the time is so LOL, in fact its probably worse than the 80% figure thrown out earlier.
Omg, your tilting me at how everything in your post is over thinking every point. Stop plz for the love of God....Sluglife plz say another prayer but for me this time plz.
1 show of hands who feels insulted? 2 You actually think I ran the numbers and 96% is the correct amount of times AQ is good here in this spot? lol is about all that is correct. 3 Yeah I just wanna go home now, i'll apologize later!
Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
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