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now what do i do?

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    now what do i do?

    he is a fairly solid player playing 19/12 for 110 hands
    i feel ihave to make a cbet on the flop and force him to make the decision right?
    but now what?

    Full Tilt Poker Game #18080662687: $1.5 Million Guarantee (131905239), Table 824 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:26:35 ET - 2010/01/31
    Seat 1: CapTinBisKuiT (9,230)
    Seat 2: lucky-colm (7,324)
    Seat 3: 007 Timmy 007 (9,814)
    Seat 4: Johnny_Lazer (9,125)
    Seat 5: narumol (3,417)
    Seat 6: juzlearnin (4,075)
    Seat 7: thecasekace (5,265)
    Seat 8: Pokerjoe48 (12,549)
    Seat 9: south10 (8,504)
    CapTinBisKuiT antes 25
    lucky-colm antes 25
    007 Timmy 007 antes 25
    Johnny_Lazer antes 25
    narumol antes 25
    juzlearnin antes 25
    thecasekace antes 25
    Pokerjoe48 antes 25
    south10 antes 25
    lucky-colm posts the small blind of 120
    007 Timmy 007 posts the big blind of 240
    The button is in seat #1
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to lucky-colm [As Kd]
    Johnny_Lazer has 15 seconds left to act
    Johnny_Lazer folds
    narumol folds
    juzlearnin folds
    thecasekace folds
    Pokerjoe48 raises to 590
    south10 folds
    CapTinBisKuiT folds
    lucky-colm has 15 seconds left to act
    lucky-colm raises to 1,680
    007 Timmy 007 folds
    Pokerjoe48 has 15 seconds left to act
    Pokerjoe48 has requested TIME
    Pokerjoe48 calls 1,090
    *** FLOP *** [2d 8c 2h]
    lucky-colm has 15 seconds left to act
    lucky-colm bets 2,400
    Pokerjoe48 raises to 10,844, and is all in
    lucky-colm has 15 seconds left to act



    "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

    #2
    i prefer a shove than a 3bet of that size, cos you don't get in spots like this when he flats,

    either 3bet bigger, or shove, if you want to raise

    calling is my default play here preflop,

    I also don't like betting the flop if i do 3bet

    its a fold now
    http://drjff.blogspot.com/

    Comment


      #3
      I prefer a check raise if we did manage to get into that spot, we might get to see a turn and at least with a check raise we allow him to bluff with worse and it looks much stronger than a push on the flop but i wouldnt be crazy about a check raise but i certainly think its better than betting to try and fold out hands we already beat.

      I think doing the rough maths with antes and all thats in the pot your getting 3/1 now so you need about 25% equity, you've 24% vs any pair other than AA-KK and so if theres ever bluffs in hes range then its close for a call. With a check raise and the added fold equity it should make it more profitable than bet calling or bet folding.

      as DrJff said 3betting puts us i a bad situation when weve only about 30bb its not ideal and proably a bit too deep to shove as we just fold out hes weaker Aces and Kings and when he does call were either in trouble or 50/50 as a decent player isnt going to stack off with AQ,AJ here so its probably going to be 99-AA calling you mostly so calling and getting value from hands you dominate is much better against a decent player.

      Comment


        #4
        i see what you are saying about preflop a bigger raise might have been the job or even the shove.
        reason i raised was that he was coming from a lp and i was oop so i was representing a strong hand and that is why i felt that i had to keep the aggression going after the flop (i find this cbet takes the pot down 70 or 80% of the time)and force him to make the tough decision.
        now with 50% of my chips in the pot he pushes, i think iam fairly pot committed at this stage, allbeit i still have 12bbs behind. and you would say fold, disscretion being the better part of valour kinda thing.

        also why would you not cbet here are you not leaving yourself open to villian stealing the pot here
        or are you saying flat call pre and now c/f

        edit: this is in response to drjff post dvdfan had posted in the meantime



        "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

        Comment


          #5
          i see dvdfan you are after answering my questions i had for drjff

          so a flat call is the prefered option in this position

          if i was in position as in the cutoff or button would a three bet have been right then or would ye think a flat call is still the way forward



          "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

          Comment


            #6
            Id think that given the stack sizes calling is always going to be better option than 3betting here, mostly for the reasons i already mentioned that you make him fold hands you dominate and also that your going to miss the flop 66% of the time and since your stack sizes don't really allow you to make a cbet so not being able to make a cbet drastically reduces your profitability, check/folding and check/raising is also a tough spot when you do miss and since you probably folded out a lot of hes dominated hands when you 3bet OOP then when you do hit your not getting paid off enough.

            These are all on the assumption the villain is decent. When you just call you allow him to value bet himself with all hes dominated hands like Ax,Kx and your hand is quite disguised so he is likely to pay you off with lots of dominated hands. Hes also in late position so although you are OOP AK still has great equity vs hes range and most times youll have the best hand on the flop even when you dont hit so you can still play some poker since at worst you'll probably have 6+ outs to improve.

            So in summary by 3betting your turn your hand into a bluff 2/3rds of the time and put yourself in a situation where your risking your whole stack to fold out hands you already beat, make the pot/stack ratio too big thus negating your edge if your a better player, you fold out a huge percentage of hes range that you've great equity against and lose out on the value you get from dominated hands post flop.

            The cons are you'll be playing OOP and hes range will be hard to narrow down. Theres no reason why you cant donk double barrel, hes range is so wide in late position that even if he thinks your bluffing hell be folding a lot and as i mentioned you've outs to improve, so you can take back the aggression rather than going into check call mode with a bluff catcher or trying to check/raise OOP, the difference is youve a lot more equity with AK high in a raised pot vs a late position raiser compared to a 3bet pot where a huge part of hes air hands is removed from hes range.

            Again even with position we cant cbet enough to make it profitable so all the other reasons still apply and hes more likely to fold more of hes range that weve good equity against when hes OOP.
            Last edited by dvdfan; 01-02-10, 04:10.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
              i prefer a shove than a 3bet of that size, cos you don't get in spots like this when he flats,

              either 3bet bigger, or shove, if you want to raise

              calling is my default play here preflop,

              I also don't like betting the flop if i do 3bet

              its a fold now
              It can't possibly be a fold now

              there is 3825 in the middle pre hero has c-bet 2400 villain has shoved for 3220 more more like hero is getting 3.5 / 1 hero needs 21% equity for a call to be correct even if we give villain all pairs 22-QQ hero has 22.5%

              Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

              57,420 games 0.068 secs 844,411 games/sec

              Board: 2d 2h 8c
              Dead:

              equity win tie pots won pots tied
              Hand 0: 22.576% 22.42% 00.16% 12873 90.00 { AsKd }
              Hand 1: 77.424% 77.27% 00.16% 44367 90.00 { QQ-22 }

              as it stands I think I prefer check shove to bet call but folding post seems kinda criminal and I am not sure I like flatting raises off a 30bb stack OOP with AKo it seems a pretty standard raise call pre and don't fold post

              Comment


                #8
                result

                i nearly laid this down i had deliberatly made sure that i had enough left behind 12bb if i decided to lay it down should he came over the top, but i think that is my problem i am a little unwilling to comit fully to a plan. my plan here was to make a cbet and if he came over the top i would lay it down and still have enough to play with, but instead when he pushed i looked at the pot made a quick and fast calculation said i had 24% chance of hitting an A or a K and i was nearly getting 4:1 on the pot coupled with the fact that i had 50% of my chips in the middle i also felt pot committed at this stage.


                anyhow
                i called his shove
                he turned QQ
                turn K
                river K


                thanks for the replys and opinions guys
                it was more of was this a donk play or not exercise as i wasn't to sure myself whether it was the right move or not at the time



                "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                Comment


                  #9
                  I was pretty much going to post exactly what scouser did.
                  We don't like it, but we have to call his shove. But that isn't the decision part of the hand. Pre-flop, and even your first action on the flop is more important.


                  Pre is tricky, it seams wrong not to raise, but our stack is at an awkward size. Shoving seams to me an over bet, but we can't make any other raise without almost committing ourselves, as you did.
                  For this reason, I don't think calling is too bad in this spot, we will have under repped our hand and should have decent success with a CR should an A or K hit.
                  If villain has been very agro however, then shipping it in is probably best, far better than a "standard" 3bet that leaves us short post flop.

                  As played preflop, I don't like the bet. We fold out hands we beat and have to call a ship anyway. Just check it
                  Check>ship>bet

                  Comment

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