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need a good pre-flop strategy to beat the game for Max$$$

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    need a good pre-flop strategy to beat the game for Max$$$

    Was hoping i could get your thoughts on this particular cash game i’m playing at the mo in Iran.
    I’ll give a bit of back ground about the game and then i will get in to specifics and then i want your thoughts on what you think would be the most profitable strategy to employ in this game.
    I apologies for the long post but i think it’s important to have the details.

    Background:
    The poker boom has only hit Iran in the last year and NL and Omaha are both big games at the moment and some big games (up to 10/20 euro which is a lot of money in Iranian money) are being played.
    The thing is no one knows how to play. They know the rules and that’s it.
    They don’t even know that there is shit to know. They think is a game of pure chance.

    How the game plays:
    The game is a 9 handed game. Usually every one sits down with 30BBs but they quickly reload if they lose and so the game gets very deep in to time.
    Almost every one there plays the same strategy outlined below:

    Their hand ranges:
    They play any two suited, any pocket pair, any Ace, any broadway, K5+from any position.
    They raise preflop with any broadway,A5+,any pocket pair and they would happily get their stacks in with the same range.
    They limp with the rest of their range.
    If they limp, they call at least one pre-flop raise with almost 100% of their limping range.
    They play draws passively and made hands aggressively. (A made hand is usually second pair+).
    Not much bluffing goes on at all and if it does it’s usually quite transparent and it’s easily detectable.
    Their betting and raising has a wired pattern.
    An open raise can be anything from 10BB to 15 and some times 20BB .as i said their open raise range is any pair, any Ace, any broadway .they will also 3 bet with any pair,A9+,any broadways and get it in with that same range.
    Post flop the betting really relies on the strength of their hand but they bet/raise TP+ and flat alot with anything hoping to catch later.

    The game generally plays very passive. Usually someone makes and open raise and 5 6 players call.
    Ppl rarely give up on the flop and they chase everything so the flop usually plays out bet,call.call,call as well.

    So my question as i said is,
    What is the most profitable strategy to play against these?
    In particular i’m interested to know
    What my pre-flop range should be and how i should play them?
    Ie what should my flat calling range be preflop (keep in mind every preflop raise is at least 10BB).

    What about my 3betting range?
    Should i isolate more with AJ,AQ,AK or should i limp reraise or take flops with them as if i hit i usually have them dominated ?
    What range should i be happy to get it all in pre?(currently without stoving i shove 99+,AT+,KQ)
    Post flop is really easy i feel once i get a good pre-flop strategy.
    Your thoughts are really appreciated folks.

    #2
    Did the Iranian tourist board put you up to this ?

    Comment


      #3
      Just play like its 2002 again, only open when you have the goods and check raise all in with any draw no matter how deep your stack is and no matter how small the bet is.

      Comment


        #4
        Blow up the table
        Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

        Comment


          #5
          Tight is right here, I would overplay any monster from any position, prepare to get sucked out on the odd time but very profitable when dominating a lot of calls.
          airport, lol

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hurricane Fly View Post
            Just play like its 2002 again, only open when you have the goods and check raise all in with any draw no matter how deep your stack is and no matter how small the bet is.
            Brilliant.

            Comment


              #7
              Can I come and stay in your house for a couple of months Gholi.
              We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

              Comment


                #8
                So you're saying they never fold to any bet size in any position when on a draw or with marginal made hands.. Sounds like one of the house games I used to play!

                First thing I would say is to play abc poker- tighten your 3bet range- I would say only 3bet with AQ+,JJ+.. You know these guys are calling with any two broadways so I personally wouldn't isolate with any worse than JJ as it greatly reduces your edge over time as a lot of the time you'll be flipping.

                I would advise calling with suited connectors as much as possible, but only if you can see a cheap flop, muck them 100% of the time if the raise is 6x +.. That being said, you mentioned about the games being hyper passive so with implied odds (everyone calling behind and the fact that if you hit big, you much more than double up) a case can be made for playing these more regularly, but again, I'd just fold unless you can see a flop cheaply.

                Forget about limp-raising, it doesn't work here. You said that there would be a lot of limpers, so chances are with so much money in the pot already you're going to get more than 1 caller- not what you want with the likes of AJ..

                You should be happy to get it in pre with JJ+,AK and maybe at a stretch AQ.

                My main advice is keep tight, try not to play any multiway pots- if you must, do so only when you can get in cheaply and in position, only isolate with monsters as above, don't get attached to pairs set mining coz you're down to their level then. And a big thing that is an absolute must, buy in for the maximum (or the same as the bigstack at the table has) if your bankroll permits, as when you play pots against these, you're going to double up A LOT. GL

                Comment


                  #9
                  Possibly the sickest brag post I've seen on IPB.

                  Originally posted by Hurricane Fly View Post
                  Just play like its 2002 again, only open when you have the goods and check raise all in with any draw no matter how deep your stack is and no matter how small the bet is.
                  Level?
                  X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                  Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                  $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Either buy in short and play a short stack strategy (if underrolled), or buy in normal (100bb) and play tight solid poker. In either case you will do well in the long run.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                      Either buy in short and play a short stack strategy (if underrolled), or buy in normal (100bb) and play tight solid poker. In either case you will do well in the long run.
                      This imo.

                      Play the biggest game you are even rolled to sit with 100BBs. 2-5 say.
                      Take short stacked shots at the next game up. 5-10 or even 10-20

                      And just abc it all the way, its a boring grind. But its easy money.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Winning loads of money at poker is never boring

                        Comment


                          #13
                          i know how to beat the gaame but my question was more how to beat it for max $$$.

                          i mean suppose all your opponents play the exact same strategy as i outlined in my first post.

                          if that were the case my question was to come up with a strategy that beats theirs for max $$$ and not just bea it.

                          at the moment im playing tight but i don't know how tight is right ,if you know what i mean.

                          given the above opponents and how they play,i don't wanna play any looser or any tighter than i should be.

                          i want to play perfect.
                          see the thing is ,these games are going to be going for a while and they are not going to change at all.
                          so i'm going to be playing alot of hands with people who all play exactly the same .

                          i'm trying to come up with a range of hands and how to play them against these people to win win win.
                          as if you were programing a robot to beat this strategy.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            well i think all the advice you got on here was rubbish. if u want to beat it for max $$$ and you have an edge and they are as bad as you say they are, ffs get in as many pots as possible. for me i would be playing as many hands as possible. that means limping in behind when it goes multi way with suitable (speculative) hands.

                            preflop obv raise and iso raise with your big hands for value.

                            obviously any clown can just sit tight or shortstack and you cannot but make cash but if you are rolled ok and you can buy in deep i dont see why you wouldnt open up alot for a game like this> obv playing more hands will increase variance but i think this is the way to maxmise $$$

                            the shortstacking suggestion is one i hate. what are they suggesting you do once u double up?? leave a juicy game or what?? so you go away and come back a few hours later or the next day>>>that seems a great way to maxismise you $$$ alright

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                              the shortstacking suggestion is one i hate. what are they suggesting you do once u double up?? leave a juicy game or what?? so you go away and come back a few hours later or the next day>>>that seems a great way to maxismise you $$$ alright
                              OP gave no indication of his bankroll or tolerance for risk, in fact at that point he hadn't even said he wanted to maximise his $$$, so this comment is ridiculous.

                              Also your advice sounds great, but is in fact terrible. The game starts very short (30bbs each) and preflop raises tend to be 10x. That isn't a game where you can play a wide range.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                i know how to beat the gaame but my question was more how to beat it for max $$$.

                                i mean suppose all your opponents play the exact same strategy as i outlined in my first post.

                                if that were the case my question was to come up with a strategy that beats theirs for max $$$ and not just bea it.

                                at the moment im playing tight but i don't know how tight is right ,if you know what i mean.

                                given the above opponents and how they play,i don't wanna play any looser or any tighter than i should be.

                                i want to play perfect.
                                see the thing is ,these games are going to be going for a while and they are not going to change at all.
                                so i'm going to be playing alot of hands with people who all play exactly the same .

                                i'm trying to come up with a range of hands and how to play them against these people to win win win.
                                as if you were programing a robot to beat this strategy.
                                Your asking for a strategy on how to beat a very loose game that changes structure as the night progresses. I think your question is way too broad to get any sort of meaningful advice, you'd be better off putting up example situations.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by lowkicker View Post
                                  So you're saying they never fold to any bet size in any position when on a draw or with marginal made hands.. Sounds like one of the house games I used to play!

                                  First thing I would say is to play abc poker- tighten your 3bet range- I would say only 3bet with AQ+,JJ+.. You know these guys are calling with any two broadways so I personally wouldn't isolate with any worse than JJ as it greatly reduces your edge over time as a lot of the time you'll be flipping.

                                  I would advise calling with suited connectors as much as possible, but only if you can see a cheap flop, muck them 100% of the time if the raise is 6x +.. That being said, you mentioned about the games being hyper passive so with implied odds (everyone calling behind and the fact that if you hit big, you much more than double up) a case can be made for playing these more regularly, but again, I'd just fold unless you can see a flop cheaply.

                                  Forget about limp-raising, it doesn't work here. You said that there would be a lot of limpers, so chances are with so much money in the pot already you're going to get more than 1 caller- not what you want with the likes of AJ..

                                  You should be happy to get it in pre with JJ+,AK and maybe at a stretch AQ.

                                  My main advice is keep tight, try not to play any multiway pots- if you must, do so only when you can get in cheaply and in position, only isolate with monsters as above, don't get attached to pairs set mining coz you're down to their level then. And a big thing that is an absolute must, buy in for the maximum (or the same as the bigstack at the table has) if your bankroll permits, as when you play pots against these, you're going to double up A LOT. GL
                                  I can't understand this at all. He said at the start of this thread that he's beating the game compfortably and hes shoving 99+, A 10+ and KQ. It makes no sense in this type of game to tighten your range here. The gist I got from his post was that he is pretty compfortable shoving that range as they stack off with any Ace, any pair etc etc. I am going to try and play enough pots cheaply with them with a huge range of hands and hopefully stack them on the flop because from the sounds of it it doesnt look like they are going to fold Ax on a flop any time soon. The main thing I am just not doing is anything mad like tripple barrell bluffs. Some can argue the limp behind with marginal hands, personally I dont mind it, its just nothing something I would do personally very often.

                                  As for the preflop strategy, I dont think theres huge merit to making any huge raises preflop or anything like that. Bottom line, you are going to get them to put it in with worse on the flop, so if you raise preflop to like 4 or 5x and miss and there are two donk leads into you, your just waisting 2 - 2 and a half bb each time. Thats just my thoughts on it, not sure how the more knowledgable folk would view this??

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Also you mentioned their 3 betting range but what is their percentage of fold to three bet? Are you currently 3 betting a lot? Feel Im 3 betting any of the hands you outlined in your first post that you're willing to get it in with but no wider than that

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                      OP gave no indication of his bankroll or tolerance for risk, in fact at that point he hadn't even said he wanted to maximise his $$$, so this comment is ridiculous.

                                      Also your advice sounds great, but is in fact terrible. The game starts very short (30bbs each) and preflop raises tend to be 10x. That isn't a game where you can play a wide range.
                                      he said they 'keep reloading' game gets 'very deep' in no time. come on for christ sakes

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        So what? If people are buying in for that short and then sometimes getting deep it just means there will be a wide variety of stack sizes - in which case you can't really play that loose.

                                        He also mentions that there are 10/20 games going. Buying in short to a game like that is probably the easiest and most profitable way to build a bankroll. I doubt he has the BR (no offence Gholi!) to justify buying in deep to a 10/20 game.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                          So what? If people are buying in for that short and then sometimes getting deep it just means there will be a wide variety of stack sizes - in which case you can't really play that loose.

                                          He also mentions that there are 10/20 games going. Buying in short to a game like that is probably the easiest and most profitable way to build a bankroll. I doubt he has the BR (no offence Gholi!) to justify buying in deep to a 10/20 game.
                                          i agree that there will end up being a variety and this is something we have to keep adjusting to through the session for like in any live game. again we need be aware of other players tendencies and how they play their stack size and our position relative to them.
                                          also i agree the 10xBB raise seriously restricts (our ranges) us early on when most are shallow and until basically a good few are 'very deep' and we have some handle on the table.

                                          u suggest a hit n run type short stack strategy in the biggest games...well i can see that is obviously an option but i get the impression he has plenty of time, an appropriate bankroll and wants to get the most out of the games while he is there so i'd be pretty sure playing more than less so to speak would net us more $$$ and maximise return.
                                          Last edited by bustamoves; 29-02-12, 15:35.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                            i agree that there will end up being a variety and this is something we have to keep adjusting to through the session for like in any live game. again we need be aware of other players tendencies and how they play their stack size and our position relative to them.
                                            also i agree the 10xBB raise seriously restricts (our ranges) us early on when most are shallow and until basically a good few are 'very deep' and we have some handle on the table.

                                            u suggest a hit n run type short stack strategy in the biggest games...well i can see that is obviously an option but i get the impression he has plenty of time, an appropriate bankroll and wants to get the most out of the games while he is there so i'd be pretty sure playing more than less so to speak would net us more $$$ and maximise return.
                                            Yeah, my main point is that the question is too broad to have any meaning, a guide to how to maximise your earnings in a game like this would be basically just a book on how to beat low stakes cash games. The more the stacks change the more the best strategy changes.

                                            Its an interesting question, I think you're expectation would be greater buying in short to a huge game with terrible players than buying in normally to a normal game with terrible players (But I'm just guessing really without more info). Big stacks tend to give up a huge amount of equity to shortstacks even when the players aren't that bad, I can only imagine the amount of juicy preflop spots would come up with a table full of fish. You don't necessarily have to hit and run either, if you get lucky and double/treble up you can stay with the added advantage of having extra information.

                                            Playing in the big game gives you the biggest chance of running like god and making a fortune. The games won't stay like this for long, especially not the highest stakes ones .
                                            Last edited by Hectorjelly; 29-02-12, 15:52.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              when stacks are shallow;

                                              Play tight - fold all low pp's, sc's and generally anything < AQ and 99. isolate with these hands and hopefully get it in against one player

                                              when stack are deeper;

                                              Call with all your low pocket pairs, s'cs and 1 gappers if getting to see a flop cheaply and hope to flop the world - wait to hit a big flop and go crazy. Isolate pre with all your monster hands by massively inflating the pot

                                              never bluff

                                              rub money on titties

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                ok i'm posting this quickly as i have to run to a game

                                                HJ is spot on...
                                                first of ,i dont have the BR for the 10/20 game at the moment and i'm not playing them at the mo.

                                                i'm playig a 2/4 game in euros .
                                                the way the game is played is that each player HAS to buy 100BB worth of chips but they only have to start with 25BB each.

                                                so for the first few hands its a shove fist and usually a multi way shove fest.
                                                naturally some one wins so the stacks get deeper but also some lose and reload anything between 30BB(min allowed) to their max buy in.

                                                so pretty early on ,you have situations where you have a dude make a 15BB raise playing 150BB and im there with 200BB and the a few ppl after are seating with 30-50BB each.

                                                @HJ
                                                i'm all ears for your juicy preflop spots .
                                                please tell me all good things.

                                                my aim is to beat this game good and then move to 10/20 where they play exactly the same except they have deeper pockets and love to gamblool more...

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Show them the nuts obviously. Seriously, play tight. Tighter than I would imagine you ever have, or enjoy doing. Obv the context of what is super tight is dependant on stack sizes. Bet as much as you can get away with nutted hands irrespective of potsize.

                                                  I wouldn't worry too about trying to play so high, like the most important thing if the games are like you say they are is staying in action, going bust will cost you lots and lots of loots and is more real than any percieved equity or looties you may be leaving to be gobbled up in the bigger game.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I'm not an expert of on short stack play, I've never really done it.

                                                    If you want really good advice pm Limon on 2+2. That's how he built his roll, shortstacking massive NL games live.

                                                    The things I would consider are:

                                                    a) When the stacks are shallow it plays like the later stages tournament, but there is no ICM.

                                                    b) If the players are incredibly bad, and the rake isn't huge, then you can pretty much decide on how much variance you want.

                                                    c) You need to know the ranges players will call your all in with. Then you can use SNG tools or something to work out profitable shoving ranges over open raises/or just open shoves.

                                                    d) Some of the most profitable spots will be where you get in multiway with good equity. You aren't going to win all of these pots, but when you do you will quadruple up or similar.

                                                    e) A huge advantage a small stack has over multiple large stacks is that you can use the large stacks to protect your equity. For example, Player A raises. You shove all in for 15bbs with KTs. Player B calls. Player C calls. Player A then goes all in. B+C fold, and you are now playing for a 61.5bbs pot. You need very little equity to make this hugely profitable. Of course this is like a best case scenario, but you need to work out the dynamic of how the table plays - in the instance above just calling the raise pre might be best if someone else is liable to squeeze. Don't get carried away with this, you should always have a hand that is liable to be better than the other players on average. If several people go all in you can't call for value with a hand like 67s.

                                                    I'd play the game short and try to take as many notes as possible, both on each players ranges and every spot you get into. Work out afterwards was it + or - EV.

                                                    I would pay a lot of money to play in this game, assuming it's on the level. I would be very wary of games like this being rigged. There's threads on 2+2 with good information, but I'd be very interested in the dealers relationships to the players, looking for marked cards etc etc. No need to be paranoid, but cheating at poker has always existed, and the perfect people to cheat are tables of newbies.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Beating this game isn't hard obv, whether you go LAG or TAG, but one piece of advice I would have is to recognise just how high-variance it is, realise when you're running bad and try your best not to tilt and deviate from your gameplan.
                                                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                        ok i'm posting this quickly as i have to run to a game
                                                        Trip report ?!?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          ah Gholimoli long time

                                                          good to hear ya found such a juicy game

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by DaKlowen View Post
                                                            Trip report ?!?
                                                            He did all the Tomans in the 10 20 game and has been conscripted to serve on the Pakistan border
                                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              i would love to read a trip report on the poker scene in iran if you get a chance!

                                                              Comment

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