Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Trips on river

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Trips on river

    25/50 against a reg. We are both 200bbs deep.

    Idiot limps utg.
    I make it 2 to go with QJo
    Regular calls from bb, everyone else folds.

    $4.75 in the pot

    Flop is 5J8, two heart.

    Check, Check

    I'd bet here sometimes, but have to check good hands back occasionally to stop people abusing my weak flop check back range. I think this is a good time to do it.

    Turn is a black 4, he bets $2.75 I call.

    $10.25 in the pot.

    River is a black J (no flush possible), he checks, I bet $7.69. He makes it $24.75

    Call or fold? (or shove as a bluff I suppose)

    #2
    Notes on player:

    way way overplayed 2 pair in limped pot
    called 3bet with QQ, then min raised lead and called all in on ten high board
    min raised a5s button
    3bet AQ 200bbs deep fired twice with oesd,


    I wouldn't pay too much attention to the first note, I've played with a lot and haven't seen him do any other stupid things
    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 28-03-12, 19:17.

    Comment


      #3
      I think your hand is well disguised in this spot. You checking back top pair on the flop and flat calling the turn doesn't look like a jack imo. If I was your opponent I would find it very difficult to put you on trip jacks and as a result looks like it could be a good spot for him to check raise bluff and as he is a reg, he is surely capable of it.

      With the given information I'd find it hard to fold. Don't see much value in shoving so I'd call.

      Do we have any other hand histories which could give us an insight into his calling range from bb?? Or some hud stats might help as well

      Comment


        #4
        Bleh, it seems like a spot were so underrepped that we have to call even though we beat v little of his value raising range. Your notes on him prob mean he is capable of bluffing here so sigh call I guess.
        They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
        Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by bogmonster1 View Post

          Do we have any other hand histories which could give us an insight into his calling range from bb?? Or some hud stats might help as well
          All the regs call too loose from the blinds, although I don't know much about this specific players tendencies. I don't use a HUD.

          Comment


            #6
            People exploiting capped ranges with this type of play is very common imo so I would definitely call. Any half decent player will be c/r bluffing here with a high frequency.

            Comment


              #7
              Can't fold given your hand is so under repped, Im prob calling but could click it back for value and fold to a shove.

              Comment


                #8
                I think we can call profitable. But don't think shove achieves anything

                Comment


                  #9
                  Never folding here, our hand is underepped and he can have some worse Js in his range.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                    Never folding here, our hand is underepped and he can have some worse Js in his range.
                    He can deffo have worse Js especially given how he's played it and that's why clicking back has to be an option

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                      He can deffo have worse Js especially given how he's played it and that's why clicking back has to be an option
                      The only worse jack he can really have is TJ. 9Js, 8Js etc are possible but unlikely. Given every other value hand beats us, and he probably never plays a jack like this anyway (maybe AJ) I really hate the idea of reopening the betting. He's far more likely to have KJ (probably never folds pre, and seems stronger on the river) than 9J (only calls if its suited etc). In any case I think he's far more likely to play a stronger hand like this for value, like a straight or a house.

                      If he's bluffing we win the same or have a tiny chance of getting pushed off the best hand.

                      If he has a value hand we beat we get an extra bet, but there are far more value hands that beat us, so in the long run it's - EV, unless he calls us with hands he was originally bluffing with.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                        People exploiting capped ranges with this type of play is very common imo so I would definitely call. Any half decent player will be c/r bluffing here with a high frequency.
                        I've never seen anyone bluff like this at the site I'm playing on. I'd be surprised if he knew what a capped range was. That said it's an unusual spot; I can't remember anyone taking this line against me.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Flop is fine, makes the river a pretty standard b/c though. We're calling/checking back river a lot given texture so going c/r over b/c with his value range in this spot seems pretty bad, and even more unlikely if he's multi-tabling.
                          "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                            Flop is fine, makes the river a pretty standard b/c though. We're calling/checking back river a lot given texture so going c/r over b/c with his value range in this spot seems pretty bad, and even more unlikely if he's multi-tabling.
                            Which is more likely though, he decided to c/r a hand for value or he decided to bluff with a c/r rather than just leading again. If he's multitabling a bluff check raise is less likely than a value check raise IMO. I assume he is multitabling.

                            I value bet pretty thinly, I don't know if the villain knows this or not.

                            Thinking about it today maybe he decided he had a value hand that wasn't like to win a showdown once I bet, ie 66 or something. Again I think this might be overestimating the villains thought process. I still think I was beaten.

                            I folded anyway, wish I'd called just to see what he had!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                              Which is more likely though, he decided to c/r a hand for value or he decided to bluff with a c/r rather than just leading again. If he's multitabling a bluff check raise is less likely than a value check raise IMO. I assume he is multitabling.
                              Bluffing in villains shoes I initially give up on this river a large %, texture is too dry for hero to have much other than a hand he was planning to call down with, and his hand can only have got stronger on this river, so unless we plan on overbetting this wont get through often, and even still may not get through enough if hero is capable. I expect him to check behind and win a lot, but he will have Jx rarely, so when he bets I figure this is most often thin value, making a c/r bluff such a good option. We dont need to balance by c/r for value on this texture though because b/c or b/f originally is far more profitable vs heros range and the spot comes up too rarely for it to be in any way expoitable..

                              In any case, based on all this it will be a bluff at least as often as a value hand imo so b/c >> b/f as hero
                              "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                Bluffing in villains shoes I initially give up on this river a large %, texture is too dry for hero to have much other than a hand he was planning to call down with, and his hand can only have got stronger on this river, so unless we plan on overbetting this wont get through often, and even still may not get through enough if hero is capable. I expect him to check behind and win a lot, but he will have Jx rarely, so when he bets I figure this is most often thin value, making a c/r bluff such a good option. We dont need to balance by c/r for value on this texture though because b/c or b/f originally is far more profitable vs heros range and the spot comes up too rarely for it to be in any way expoitable..

                                In any case, based on all this it will be a bluff at least as often as a value hand imo so b/c >> b/f as hero
                                Based on all this if i'm playing you then yeah, fortunately the players I'm playing aren't in your league!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Not folding here. Winning pretty much nails it. Can't think of a player online i'd fold to here.
                                  Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                    $4.75 in the pot

                                    Flop is 5J8, two heart.

                                    Check, Check

                                    I'd bet here sometimes, but have to check good hands back occasionally to stop people abusing my weak flop check back range.
                                    if this is a concern i think that suggests that you aren't barreling regs nearly often enough on this board texture in position.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by robin View Post
                                      if this is a concern i think that suggests that you aren't barreling regs nearly often enough on this board texture in position.
                                      Why?

                                      This is the type of board I'm hate to barrel without any equity/unlikely to improve, (ie A2o, 22), but I don't want to just signal to the other player they can have the pot should I check the flop. Even doing this once or twice to a player will make him very reluctant to just auto fire the turn should I check. Also, and this is really important, but without checking back some strongish hands here, my opponent can not just auto fire the turn, but can continue on the river knowing my hand range is extremely weak.

                                      Right now there is also no way I'm getting three streets of action from a worse hand, (bar some draws), so I'm going to have to check one of the streets back anyway. With AJ or KJ I think checking back misses a lot more value, as obviously they are both one step higher.

                                      I'd imagine you would then suggest barreling far more often so that QJo becomes a value bet on the river, but I think i'm already in a situation where I'm one step ahead of my opponents, I know what they are likely to call me with and or fold, if I start barrelling them any more (which I do occasionally) I'm going to force then to adjust to a much higher variance situation; which I would imagine would lead to expensive mistakes on both of our parts, and probably them 3betting me a lot more (which would be a disaster).

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        Why?

                                        This is the type of board I'm hate to barrel without any equity/unlikely to improve, (ie A2o, 22), but I don't want to just signal to the other player they can have the pot should I check the flop. Even doing this once or twice to a player will make him very reluctant to just auto fire the turn should I check. Also, and this is really important, but without checking back some strongish hands here, my opponent can not just auto fire the turn, but can continue on the river knowing my hand range is extremely weak.

                                        Right now there is also no way I'm getting three streets of action from a worse hand, (bar some draws), so I'm going to have to check one of the streets back anyway. With AJ or KJ I think checking back misses a lot more value, as obviously they are both one step higher.

                                        I'd imagine you would then suggest barreling far more often so that QJo becomes a value bet on the river, but I think i'm already in a situation where I'm one step ahead of my opponents, I know what they are likely to call me with and or fold, if I start barrelling them any more (which I do occasionally) I'm going to force then to adjust to a much higher variance situation; which I would imagine would lead to expensive mistakes on both of our parts, and probably them 3betting me a lot more (which would be a disaster).
                                        obviously you're not going to be barreling your whole range here, but this is the type of board and situation where i would be barreling very,very often.

                                        you'll presumably be barreling with TPTK+, your draws, and a shitload of gutshots.

                                        villain in this spot will often check fold flop, and he will also have lots of hands that will call, after which there will be lots of turns he will fold, and also lots of (specific) turns you can barrel expecting him to call once more but then check fold the river very often.

                                        i'm not suggesting that you necessarily want to be setting yourself up for three streets of value here without a read, but when you are barreling wet boards its a good idea to have a fairly depolarized second barreling range - you don't want your only value hands to be ones you will be going for three streets with.

                                        given that you will be betting three streets for value with almost all your stronger hands, QJo nut hand to have in your barrel turn, check back river range.

                                        i spent a bit of time working in flopzilla recently and its amazing how much boards like this overwhelming favour whoever is in position (incidentally, almost all regs cbet this board far too often and far too light for value when they are OOP)

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X