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Ghey spot with TT

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    Ghey spot with TT

    Hand from the voodoo monthly yesterday, still annoyed about it.

    Blinds are 200-400/25. I'm sitting on about 22k, chipped up from about 14k at the break without showdown, winning a decent number of pots and going nicely.

    Villain in question is a young lad, just lost a big pot where he made a horrible stack off with KQ on a Q759r board 3-way when it was obvious someone had 2 pair+. He's spent the last few minutes telling the table how annoyed he is about how he played it. So it's folded to him in LP and he makes it 1250.

    I flat on the button with TT, there's plenty of chips back(he had about 18k at the start of the hand) and i'm happy enough taking a flop IP against what should be a very wide range.

    Anyway, the flop comes 993r and he leads for 2500. I call.

    Turn comes a 7 and he again bets 2500. I call again.

    6 on the river and he bets 5200 quickly.

    Thoughts on my line and does anyone find a hero fold at any point? Despite getting a sick price on the river, do I beat any of his value hands?

    #2
    pre i think is fine, id flat the flop anyway,duno bout turn river is a sick bet this guy could easily be on tilt i prob fold the river bet with a sick feelig in my stomach

    Comment


      #3
      Personally I raise his bet on the flop and if he comes over the top I am happy to get it all in here, I am thinking he is on a high Ace


























      But I am a donk so dont listen to me

      Comment


        #4
        Your line is fine, raising anywhere would be bad and you dont beat any of his value hands by the river. I'd probably fold the river without history but obviously he doesnt have to be bluffing much here to call profitably and coupled with the previous hand its pretty close. Time for a soul read I'm afraid, dont think theres any definite answer here.
        "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

        Comment


          #5
          Would 3betting pre be that bad.
          He open in LP and you said his range is wide.
          In saying that i would have prob flatted pre aswell but just wonder are there arguments for 3betting.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by paddyh1989 View Post
            Would 3betting pre be that bad.
            He open in LP and you said his range is wide.
            In saying that i would have prob flatted pre aswell but just wonder are there arguments for 3betting.
            I'd say 3betting wouldn't be terrible pre but id much rather flatting. Your never going to be happy getting it in versus his 4bettng range with 10 10 being 45bbs deep. A bit shallower and I'd say a 3bet would be fine. How shallow probably depends on how active you've been 3betting, player dynamics etc. but very aproximately speaking about probably 25 bbs and less id be 3betting 10 10 pre I'd say. Also I presume its reasonably early in the tournie here given the blind sizes, no point going to war with 10 10 just yet.
            "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Line Us View Post
              I'd say 3betting wouldn't be terrible pre but id much rather flatting. Your never going to be happy getting it in versus his 4bettng range with 10 10 being 45bbs deep. A bit shallower and I'd say a 3bet would be fine. How shallow probably depends on how active you've been 3betting, player dynamics etc. but very aproximately speaking about probably 25 bbs and less id be 3betting 10 10 pre I'd say. Also I presume its reasonably early in the tournie here given the blind sizes, no point going to war with 10 10 just yet.
              That sounds reasonable.
              What hands would we 3b in this spot what about JJ,AK,AQ would we flat those aswell given stack sizes.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by paddyh1989 View Post
                That sounds reasonable.
                What hands would we 3b in this spot what about JJ,AK,AQ would we flat those aswell given stack sizes.
                id flat AQ ip maybe JJ and am definitely 3betting AK. My 3 betting range here is relitively polarised Im raising all my value hands QQ+ AKs etc and some garbage with equity such as 57s 107s etc.

                Il flat with all marginal hands such as 22 - 1010 suited conecters and maybe suited Aces

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'd probably 3 bet for value pre but dont mind flatting.

                  I'd fold the river if i'm playing well, he probably would of bet more on turn if he had air. His line looks like a bad live player with a big over pair.

                  Edit: suppose with stack sizes flatting is probably better pre, pretty gay if he shoves
                  Last edited by tiago; 19-07-10, 17:22.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                    id flat AQ ip maybe JJ and am definitely 3betting AK. My 3 betting range here is relitively polarised Im raising all my value hands QQ+ AKs etc and some garbage with equity such as 57s 107s etc.

                    Il flat with all marginal hands such as 22 - 1010 suited conecters and maybe suited Aces
                    Yup this seems pretty good and as the tournie moves on and stacks get shallower the hands like AQ, AJ,55+ become 3bets and you stack off and you'll add some more bluff hands too but i'd usually go for hands like A3s k8o, etc as 3bet bluffs over 57s or the likes when you get near 15bbs. At this stage you will be 3bet jamming and these hands will have a little more equity versus peoples calling ranges. I know most times we dont get to choose but shoving 15bbs with 57s over a raise is usually bad whereas something like A2s becomes good because of the extra equity you have the times you are called.
                    "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Just keep calling imo.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I just think our difficult decisions on later streets are compounded by our failure to raise at any point. I prefer a raise on flop, but raise pre wouldn't be bad either. Raise pre is certainly cheaper, but we can't anticipate how he'd lead that much on the flop.

                        And I fold river now without some kind of a read. I know you've given a history which suggests he could be tilting but assuming he has some cop on I'm folding.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Why are you raising the flop, what are hoping to happen??
                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                          I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                          None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm not hoping for anything, I'm trying to play the entire hand in as informed a fashion as possible. On the flop I am only realistically beaten by overpairs. Occasionally he's flopped a house, very occasionally he turns up with trips. But if I'm going to continue in the hand then I need to form a judgment as per whether he has an overpair or not. In the absence of specific read on the player I'm not sure how we will do this without raising at some point.

                            I know this is 'raising for information' which is a faux pas, but for me it beats playing zombie poker and just calling. If he fires again on turn and river then what do we do? Do we want to commit that much of our stack in the dark? Do we want to call and then fold that much of our stack in the dark?

                            The cheapest way to avoid this situation in this hand was to raise pre. I don't mind the flat because it gives us a chance to hit a nice flop and we're not expecting him to lead so much on the flop. Now that we've hit that flop and he's led at it we need to decide if he has an overpair.

                            If he is a good player and he respects us then I can understand the passive rationale, since we will gain the information by seeing what he does on the turn after we called, because if he is good and respects us he will not fire again without the goods, unless he's getting funky.

                            But if he isn't good he fires the turn again with AJ here and he fires the turn again with KK here. So raise pre or on flop to better inform us as to which.

                            Nein?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              But i presume you have a plan for when you raise, from your post im presuming you intend to fold if he re-raises or shoves.

                              I think calling the flop is the most +ev way to play the hand.
                              Poker is a game of incomplete information and you wont always be able to define someones range on every flop to an overpair or nothing. It doesnt matter what reads you have, a raise preflop and a cbet only narrows his range a certain amount if at all.

                              Im presuming he fires this flop with his entire opening range.
                              Raising here wont get better to fold and worse more than likely wont continue so i dont think raising accomplishes anything.

                              In general hes not going to fire 2 or 3 barrells as a bluff on a board like this if he is any way competent so if he continues to fire we can probably give him credit for a hand and fold reasonably comfortably.

                              I wouldnt 3bet pre here unless i was happy to get all in preflop which i might well be if he is tilty looking and can be jamming stuff like 55-99 and random Aces.
                              Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                              I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                              None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                The cheapest way to avoid this situation in this hand was to raise pre.
                                Here is the problem in your thinking.

                                Don't just take the hand in isolation. Look at it in an overall context. The hands he will keep coming with pre-flop will crush us. The hands he gives up with we crush. Raising pre allows him to play the hand perfectly and we burn up all our value when he has to keep coming on flops like the one we got.

                                By flat calling pre here we make the greatest amount of gain the greatest amount of the time. Yes, sometimes he will have us in trouble but overall playing the hand as described is almost certainly the most profitable line.

                                By isolating the hand you are trying to guess exactly what his 2 cards are and we are not really concerned with that. By looking at the hand in an overall context of the game and the way the hand plays generally we can more accurately assess the range of hands he will do this and work out the most profitable move for ourselves.


                                Cliffnotes: Raising here lets him play the hand perfectly and lets us lose all our value in the hand.
                                You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Ty you summarised the point well, but I disagree with some of what you said

                                  I don't think the hands he will keep coming with pre flop crush us, I think the hands that he reraises us with pre crush us.

                                  I think he will prob now call the raise pre with any two. but unless he is playing it slyly, and no bad player will play this hand slyly, he will reraise the hands that crush us, i.e. the bigger pairs

                                  So I don't think we lose as much value and I think we sniff out the crushing hands better.

                                  Granted he may not CB now that we have raised, so we lose that value, but that also allows us to represent a stronger hand if there is an overcard on the flop, whereas previously we might have had to fold to his CB with an overcard on the flop.

                                  Also the value in the call of the reraise pre may be the same as the value from his CB anyway.

                                  I understand your rationale undermining my way of playing it, but I cannot really understand how we are playing the hand if we play it passively. On your way of playing it how much are we willing to call off? do you simply decide a figure and say, ok, I'll put x into the pot, but if he raises more than x I'm folding cos he must be strong? or if he fires a further bet greater than x I will fold on turn / river? if so, surely a small raise pre will allow you to make that decision better further on, and without committing x in the first place?
                                  Last edited by 8611; 20-07-10, 16:32.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post

                                    In general hes not going to fire 2 or 3 barrells as a bluff on a board like this if he is any way competent so if he continues to fire we can probably give him credit for a hand and fold reasonably comfortably.
                                    I completely agree with this save that I do not think that the opponent here is good. maybe I'm being unfair but on the description I don't think he's good.

                                    so against a TAG that I respect, I would play the hand this way, or at least I accept that you can get the info from just calling and seeing if he keeps firing.

                                    but this is also very exploitable...

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Thanks for the replies.

                                      To be the honest, the only streets I am really worried about are the turn and river. How the hand has been played til then, is in a live tournament at least, standard as hell imo.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                        Thanks for the replies.

                                        To be the honest, the only streets I am really worried about are the turn and river. How the hand has been played til then, is in a live tournament at least, standard as hell imo.
                                        Pre and flop are fine.
                                        I'm happy to call turn and river is purely situation dependant.

                                        Given we are getting 4/1 or so I prob make the call. His bet sizing is terrible and he is likely a newish player, prob prone to tilt off a few

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I called the river, even though I hated doing so. He had JJ.

                                          Comment

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