Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

strange situation UKIPT Cork

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    strange situation UKIPT Cork

    From the Highroller event:

    PlayerA Checks the River and PlayerB bets, after a long deliberation PlayerA calls.
    PlayerB throws his cards face down to the dealer but as she reaches for them PlayerA says "hold on I called and I want to see his hand" and another guy at the table also asks to see PlayerB's hand - floor is called - dealer explains the situation and Floor asks can the cards be identified in the muck, dealer points to them (halfway between her and the player). PlayerB objects and says his hand has been mucked but Floor rules that the hand has not hit the muck and can be identified and therefore must be turned over if requested by another player and flips over J9 suited for a missed flush draw.
    The dealer then pushes the pot towards PlayerA, pulls in all the cards and commences to shuffle the deck. As shes doing this PlayerB asks what the winning hand was as he has only seen one hand and queried why his J high wasnt good. PlayerA says that he forgot to show but he had AK for Ace high. PlayerB asks for a ruling.......
    Last edited by Arazi; 23-05-11, 01:04.

    #2
    player B mucked, so Player A wins, no matter what he had, no?

    Comment


      #3
      i love this shit, pissed off that he had to show angle shoot, why didnt he do it straight away when the other guys "AK" hit the muck and before the dealer started shuffling, then the pot was his surely? that would have been some sick shit of an angle shoot in a 1500 buy in

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by badugi View Post
        i love this shit, pissed off that he had to show angle shoot, why didnt he do it straight away when the other guys "AK" hit the muck and before the dealer started shuffling, then the pot was his surely? that would have been some sick shit of an angle shoot in a 1500 buy in
        It was quite instantanious really, only seconds between things happening. I'm not quite so sure about the second ruling as it was made on the "Last Man Standing" rule. However in the first ruling PlayerB was told his hand had to be exposed as he was called, can this be considered showdown, I'm not too sure that it isnt.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by DJKendo View Post
          player B mucked, so Player A wins, no matter what he had, no?
          Player b didn't muck, he attempted to, but his hand was tabled face down and he was requested to show.
          If the player holding AK didn't show his cards, to prove he beats J high then he can't claim the pot.
          Pretty dumb move on his part, considering he made the requet to see the bettors hand.

          If the AK wasn't tabled, then J high takes the pot. THe fact that we all know the other player could beat J high is irrelevant, cards speak. He basically called a bet and mucked his hand.

          If AK was tabled or shown even briefly, then it takes the pot

          Comment


            #6
            B gets the pot, lol at player A.
            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
            I like this heat - some proper music innit.
            None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

            Comment


              #7
              Mellor is 100% right.

              A hand that can be identified, and in this situation was a called hand, its live once turned face up again.
              So J high should win the pot if AK not shown, seen by dealer.
              Toss em in - Hope for the best!

              www.c4queen.blogspot.com

              Comment


                #8
                LOL
                Did B get the pot ?
                Turning millions into thousands

                Comment


                  #9
                  yea i want to know that too , did he get the pot?
                  Toss em in - Hope for the best!

                  www.c4queen.blogspot.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    No the pot was awarded to PlayerA

                    Comment


                      #11

                      Comment


                        #12
                        How can A possibly get the pot here.
                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                        I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                        None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          did he argue straight away for floor before the next hands deal was started? sick angle shoot.. i love it player A made a serious boo boo asking to see the hand like. guess he wasnt thinking and was sure a motion to throw cards towards muck-pile is considered an absolute fold
                          i think it should be considered a fold to be fair...but dont think it is until cards hit the muck cards and become "contaminated" as poker players sometimes say joking, is this true?
                          dealer shows player Bs holdings so he should have been awared pot? would have loved to have witnessed it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Really how did he get awarded the pot? he hasn't showing his hand to receive the pot.
                            ''Oh my god, I'm dropping shit like a pigeon
                            I hope you're listening, smacking babies at their christening''

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                              How can A possibly get the pot here.
                              This.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                The Dealer should have killed the cards off the muck before she turned them up,that way the hand is 100% dead and last man standing rule applies.If she didnt kill his hand then technically J hhigh should win as it was then the other player who had mucked.I think thats the way it is anyway no? She deffo should have killed his hand before she flipped them

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Liz, that's nonsense.

                                  Dealer touching the cards off the muck briefly wouldn't kill them as they are still identifible (they in the dealers hand FFS). There is no last man standing here, a river bet has been called and its showdown.

                                  The player with the presumed best hand mucked his hand without showing, he can't claim the pot.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    ...
                                    "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                      Liz, that's nonsense.

                                      Dealer touching the cards off the muck briefly wouldn't kill them as they are still identifible (they in the dealers hand FFS). There is no last man standing here, a river bet has been called and its showdown.

                                      The player with the presumed best hand mucked his hand without showing, he can't claim the pot.
                                      thats what last man standing is,if the other player mucks his hand then the last man with cards doesnt need to show his hand to claim the pot because hes the only person with cards.

                                      Touching them off the muck is what should be done because if she doesnt touch them off the mucj then the second she turns them up theyre live and by right the other guy should have shown his imo because he no longer has the right to claim the pot without showing his hand

                                      edit: were saying the same thing arent we?
                                      Last edited by liz:); 25-05-11, 08:25.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        My understanding of this rule is that anybody at the table can ask to see player B's hand . Then the dealer is supposed to touch the cards off the muck to kill the hand and then turn them up while the hand remains dead and has no claim to the pot.

                                        If player A ask's to see player B's hand then B's hand becomes live regardless of wether they have touched the muck or not .
                                        In this instance the pot should have been awarded player B and player A LOL'd at .

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I asked JP about this on Facebook and this was his reply,

                                          Jp Mc Cann - Hi Guys, the player who mucked should have been allowed to muck and his cards shouldn't have been turned face up. And the other player wins due to last man standing rule. If you don't allow a player to muck (which is what the TD did in this case) that players hand now becomes live again (however this wasn't a rule which was in place at the weekend) and the other player involved must show to win the pot. Looks like the TD involved mixed up two different rules which can't be applied together.
                                          "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Pretty clear from JP as usual, and pretty much inline with what most of us said here,
                                            TD made a clear mistake

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Hi Guys,

                                              I've been speaking to Toby about this as I didn't want to post in the thread as it was his event, but he's happy enough with responding on this in his behalf.

                                              Pretty much what I already said to Danny. The TD basically mixed up two rules which can't be applied together, simple human error which we all make. Main reason for this is different tournaments apply different rules. Hence the two rules been applied together.

                                              The correct ruling as per the UKIPT rules is the player with J high should have been allowed to muck his hand which is indeed dead and the player with AK is last man standing and wins without a showdown.

                                              Robert Rules... Allow for players still involved in the hand to ask and see what cards the other player is folding but do so at there own risk as these cards now become live again, and the if they are better they win the pot.

                                              We apologize that the rule wasn't applied in correct manor and it will be something which will be explained again to all our TD's for the next UKIPT.
                                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                These rules and who is first to show, clockwise after button or last agressor is the only rules i ask about when enetering a tourney someplace i never played..... Here in Malta we get a lot of differnt tours, and they all have there special thing. And always a big drama as ppl seems to be more dramatic the more sun they get!

                                                Thx Jp for clarification, your the champ, and now also the daddy! say hi to the family!
                                                a
                                                Toss em in - Hope for the best!

                                                www.c4queen.blogspot.com

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Ok, so this means that B should have been awarded it yes?
                                                  What a Laugh, although in fairness justice did prevail.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                    Ok, so this means that B should have been awarded it yes?
                                                    What a Laugh, although in fairness justice did prevail.
                                                    No player A should have been awarded the pot, which he/she was.

                                                    The part which was wrong on player B is that he/she should have been allowed to muck, but was forced to expose his/her cards.

                                                    The only time a players cards will should be exposed in this situation (when using last man standing rule) is we think there is some sort of chip dumping ect happening and then the floor should look at both sets of cards.

                                                    Once again were very sorry that this mistake happened, as mentioned it was an honest mistake on the part of the floor person who applied a rule which used to be a very common rule.

                                                    Jp
                                                    €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                    Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                    €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                    CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      UKIPT rules suck imo, A should be defo be entitled to see Bs hand if he wants to.
                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                        UKIPT rules suck imo, A should be defo be entitled to see Bs hand if he wants to.
                                                        The "usual" rules are if player A REQUESTED to see player B's hand, he would be entitled to see it. In fact, if anyone at the table requested to see player B's hand, he must show it.

                                                        However, if player A requests to see the hand, player's B hand is now live again and may be entitled to a claim on the pot. If another player at the table wishes to see Player B's hand, player B's hand is not live and is not entitled to a part of the pot.

                                                        As played, player B mucks and player A is allowed to claim the pot without showing his hand. HOWEVER, when player A requests to see player B's hand, all hands are live again, and the best hand at the showdown wins.

                                                        From what JP said, the rule at the UKIPT is that if player A requests to see player B's hand, it doesn't really matter, player B is allowed muck (ie A is not entitled to see the hand).
                                                        Could you confirm this please JP? Effectively, at UKIPTs, you're not allowed ask to see a hand at showdown if it is mucked (apart from accusations of chip dumping etc.)? What's the situation if player A turns over nuts, player B mucks. Is player A allowed to ask to see what player called with (ie what his hand is)? Thanks

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                          No player A should have been awarded the pot, which he/she was.

                                                          The part which was wrong on player B is that he/she should have been allowed to muck, but was forced to expose his/her cards.

                                                          The only time a players cards will should be exposed in this situation (when using last man standing rule) is we think there is some sort of chip dumping ect happening and then the floor should look at both sets of cards.

                                                          Once again were very sorry that this mistake happened, as mentioned it was an honest mistake on the part of the floor person who applied a rule which used to be a very common rule.

                                                          Jp
                                                          Hi JP,
                                                          Iver been running this hand through my head. You said in an earlier post that once a player asks to see the cards, the hand becomes live again.(roberts rules) and wins the pot if it is the best hand. Still cant see how player A won the pot. Does anyone know if he could beat J high?

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                            Hi JP,
                                                            Iver been running this hand through my head. You said in an earlier post that once a player asks to see the cards, the hand becomes live again.(roberts rules) and wins the pot if it is the best hand. Still cant see how player A won the pot. Does anyone know if he could beat J high?
                                                            Simply put, it was a mistake. JP has apologised on behalf of the other TD.
                                                            It was human error and these things do happen. Learn from the mistake, and make a note if it comes up again.

                                                            Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                            We apologize that the rule wasn't applied in correct manor and it will be something which will be explained again to all our TD's for the next UKIPT.
                                                            Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                            Once again were very sorry that this mistake happened, as mentioned it was an honest mistake on the part of the floor person who applied a rule which used to be a very common rule.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Gowl View Post
                                                              The "usual" rules are if player A REQUESTED to see player B's hand, he would be entitled to see it. In fact, if anyone at the table requested to see player B's hand, he must show it.

                                                              However, if player A requests to see the hand, player's B hand is now live again and may be entitled to a claim on the pot. If another player at the table wishes to see Player B's hand, player B's hand is not live and is not entitled to a part of the pot.

                                                              As played, player B mucks and player A is allowed to claim the pot without showing his hand. HOWEVER, when player A requests to see player B's hand, all hands are live again, and the best hand at the showdown wins.

                                                              From what JP said, the rule at the UKIPT is that if player A requests to see player B's hand, it doesn't really matter, player B is allowed muck (ie A is not entitled to see the hand).
                                                              Could you confirm this please JP? Effectively, at UKIPTs, you're not allowed ask to see a hand at showdown if it is mucked (apart from accusations of chip dumping etc.)? What's the situation if player A turns over nuts, player B mucks. Is player A allowed to ask to see what player called with (ie what his hand is)? Thanks
                                                              Yes this is correct and is a standard international rule which is used at the EPT and other international festivals it has also been in use at the Irish Open since 2010.
                                                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                Hi JP,
                                                                Iver been running this hand through my head. You said in an earlier post that once a player asks to see the cards, the hand becomes live again.(roberts rules) and wins the pot if it is the best hand. Still cant see how player A won the pot. Does anyone know if he could beat J high?
                                                                HI Connie,

                                                                Yes this is a rule which is used in some places and is one which (Roberts Rules) I used to use myself up to about 3 three years.

                                                                However if you use the last man standing rule you can't use Roberts Rule also in this situation.
                                                                €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                Comment

                                                                Working...
                                                                X