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    Concealing chips

    6 handed on a final table in a local tourney tonight . Blinds 2/4k and im chippy with approx 84k in MP .
    UTG slides a stack of 14k forward and sits still with his hands clasped in front of him . i presume he is all as i cant see any more chips behind ( His hands suspended above the table ) so I shove to isolate with AJ and its folded back round to utg . He just sits there saying nothing and i ask him has he got a hand as i table my cards , he says i have now and produces another 40k from his hand , calls and shows AQ.

    The dealer just dealt out the hand without saying anything and awarded the pot UTG

    Should i look for a ruling here .

    Is it just tough shit for me for not clarifying with the dealer that villain was not all in .

    Should the dealer allow the bet to stand .

    What should actually happen here .

    #2
    I think you're in the right for sure and I'd make it a 14k each pot and run it.

    Give him a warning about leaving his chips on the table.
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    Comment


      #3
      I'd of gotten a ruling, he had chips hidden. He'll argue that you revealed your hand early and he or dealer didn't say all in. Dealer should of been on the ball here tbh.

      Depending on TD it will go either way. as long as nobody else called, I'd like to see the hidden 40k removed from the hand and the two of you flip for 14k a piece.

      Comment


        #4
        Were you listening to music at the time.
        X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
        Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

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          #5
          Originally posted by The-Rigger View Post
          Were you listening to music at the time.
          No headfones/glasses/hats or anything in the way . Not even a pint was had .

          I would be of the same opinion as Mellor and Mick in that the pot should have played out with both players putting 14k in and run it as is . But i wasn't sure so said nothing . It wasn't until after the hand was over that i copped it and it was too late to say anything at that point .

          Comment


            #6
            there was no ALL IN declared from villian so when you shove his hand is live IMHO, its hard to prove he was intentionally hiding his chips,

            Comment


              #7
              Whether he was intending to deceive or not doesn't matter.
              It's against the rules to have you chips in your hand, or anywhere that that they are visible. Regardless of his intentions, he broke the rules.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                Whether he was intending to deceive or not doesn't matter.
                It's against the rules to have you chips in your hand, or anywhere that that they are visible. Regardless of his intentions, he broke the rules.
                His hands were suspended, he wasn't holding chips in his hands.
                There are lots of people who have their hands in front of their chips, some are even arsey narky twats when you ask them if they have more chips or to let you see what they have.
                X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by The-Rigger View Post
                  His hands were suspended, he wasn't holding chips in his hands.
                  Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                  ( His hands suspended above the table ) ... he says i have now and produces another 40k from his hand , calls and shows AQ.
                  I'm surprised at such a simple error from you Rigger.
                  But we all have our off days.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I only read 15% of Damo's posts. I read all his posts, but only 15% of them.
                    X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                    Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

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                    Comment


                      #11
                      [QUOTE]he says i have now and produces another 40k from his hand [QUOTE]

                      clarification reqd.....hard to hold i suspect at the stage stated to hold 40k in ur hand unnoticed

                      If his 'pose' after action is to hold his hands over cards/chips etc then his verbal/movement action is in play ie; pushing forward 14k chips and he is able to act on further action

                      seems strange also if one was watching table that you didnt notice guy had 14k or 54k ??

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Meh, he still only had 13bb, you should still shove if you see the lot.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          So if he has AT do we look for a ruling aswel?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                            So if he has AT do we look for a ruling aswel?
                            He didnt though he had AQ.

                            Way its described he could easily fold if he had AT so not sure what your point is?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Lol dude is obv a tard, opens 3.5bb out of a 13.5bb stack and almost folds AQ to a shove.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I like it.

                                *writes it into book*

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  If the chips are in his hand then a ruling should be made that only 14k each is in the pot and run out the board. If the chips were under his suspended arms then it's just unlucky and you need to watch closer next time.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    [QUOTE=TheDrunkenOne;577704][QUOTE]he says i have now and produces another 40k from his hand

                                    clarification reqd.....hard to hold i suspect at the stage stated to hold 40k in ur hand unnoticed

                                    If his 'pose' after action is to hold his hands over cards/chips etc then his verbal/movement action is in play ie; pushing forward 14k chips and he is able to act on further action

                                    seems strange also if one was watching table that you didnt notice guy had 14k or 54k ??
                                    Fairly easy to hold 8 x 5k chips in your hand . FWIW i dont think it was intentional for him to conceal his chips , but i do think he shouldnt have been able to stick the rest in at that point .
                                    Anyway nxt time i will pay a lot more attention

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TheDrunkenOne View Post
                                      there was no ALL IN declared from villian so when you shove his hand is live IMHO, its hard to prove he was intentionally hiding his chips,
                                      You don't have to prove he was intentionally hiding his chips.

                                      The fact that they were concealed is what matters. Damo acted based on the fact the other player had NO other chips in front of him.

                                      I'd run it as 14k each as if the player was all in and would possibly give a penalty.

                                      Similar situation happen at the UKIPT Galway this year in one of the side events.
                                      3 tables remaining, one player busts and it's time to break a table.
                                      After I break the table and knock the player count down on the computer.
                                      I then notice that one table is playing one player less then the other when both tables should be full, I assume we've lost another player.

                                      Then 5 minutes or so later a player seat in the open seat with his chips in his hand.
                                      I ask were he's been and I'm told he's been in the toilet.

                                      I explain to him that he's taken his chips out of the room and out of the sight of the tournament staff and so has violated the "Concealing Chips Rule" and give him a 3 round penalty. I could have disqualified the player for this.
                                      €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
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                                      €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
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                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Hey Damo were ye in seats 1and 9 or what that you didnt know roughly the size of his stack , regardless tho he can hardly play the 40k out of his "pocket " not like you to get done like that , I recon 14k ea and spin also he gets a warning for hiding them in the first place, you sure no beer involved ???

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Celtic Poker View Post
                                          Hey Damo were ye in seats 1and 9 or what that you didnt know roughly the size of his stack , regardless tho he can hardly play the 40k out of his "pocket " not like you to get done like that , I recon 14k ea and spin also he gets a warning for hiding them in the first place, you sure no beer involved ???
                                          Absolutely no beer involved . He was seat 5 and i was in 8 with a clear view of him and the table . When he slid the stack forward there was clearly no chips behind on view . When i shoved to isolate i genuinely thought it was gonna be a race for 28k . I didn't say anything as i don't play there regularly but i thought the dealer/TD should have intervened .
                                          Ahh well it can only serve to make me more vigilant in future in these spots .

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            If the chip in his suspension arm, then it's just unlucky, you need to pay attention to the close to the next time.
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                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by infoleather View Post
                                              If the chip in his suspension arm, then it's just unlucky, you need to pay attention to the close to the next time.
                                              Thank you

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Hi , i do not undersand why you didn`t ask " is that all in ? " or " how much you have behind ".
                                                Blind people do not play cards you know.
                                                If you didn`t see the chips , i don`t this it is villian's fault - except if you can prove he hid the chips on purpose , which is very difficult to prove.

                                                the dealer also had to announce " raise up to 14K " or "raise" , if the dealer announce " all-in " if different

                                                Also keep in mind that the dealers are not mind readers - they do not know what you thought or what you assumed.

                                                Just ask next time

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