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Old 01-07-10, 09:18   #1
Gimmeabreak
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WSOP $5k PLO - Very tough preflop spot.

This is about as interesting a hand as has ever been posted here I reckon. This hand is from the $5k plo yesterday. Would love to hear thoughts on best line.

UTG c.40k (Benjamin Spindler) - has been at the table for maybe 20 or 30 mins and has been moderately active in position. hasnt shown down any hands that i recall.

MP c.9k - unknown to me but he has been making bets with Ted Forrest with $150k liabilities so i assume he isnt a mug. Came to the table with maybe 50k chips but punted them off in a couple of pots, most recently he caled a big river bet from TheAshman to be shown quads, i figure he is a little tilted now and is probably just getting it in so he can go play some cash games or make more prop bets with somebody, somewhere.

Me/Big Blind c.33k - been playing pretty snug, lurking in the long grass and just picking a couple of spots here and there. Should deffo be percieved as being v tight.

Anyway, blinds of 200/400, UTG raises to 1200, MP repots to 4200, back to me in the big blind and i see K:club: K:spade: Q:club: 9:spade:
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Old 01-07-10, 16:27   #2
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I think that you were probably afraid if you flat that UTG will ship and your hardly wanting to get your stack in pre with KINGS even good ones in a 5k game.

When you say active in position utg does not necessarily have to have a huge hand utg raises get respect and perhaps a steal as he thinks your very tight.

Really tough spot if it was a smaller game or online id probably repot or call i hate folding this hand.
But is fierce tough spot.
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Old 01-07-10, 17:01   #3
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Really tough spot MP has raised 1/2 his stack and is most likely shoving all flops as a result.
UTG raiser doesn't need a big hand imo and if you flat he will most likely flat also to take in a flop 3 way. Due to your stack size being decent he won't be re-potting without a big big hand.

All in all I flat here and hope to take in a flop.
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Old 01-07-10, 17:41   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aya14 View Post
Really tough spot MP has raised 1/2 his stack and is most likely shoving all flops as a result.
UTG raiser doesn't need a big hand imo and if you flat he will most likely flat also to take in a flop 3 way. Due to your stack size being decent he won't be re-potting without a big big hand.

All in all I flat here and hope to take in a flop.
2h 5h jc flop 3 way pot you are obv calling shortstack shove ya ? What if utg flats flop as well you now have a real tough hand with about 35% of your stack in the middle.

On the face of it folding pre might see weak but the more i think about it the more i prefer it.

At first when i looked at this earlier my thoughts were call the 3 bet.

Am i correct in saying a 4 bet would be very bad here.
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Old 01-07-10, 17:51   #5
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2h 5h jc flop 3 way pot you are obv calling shortstack shove ya ? What if utg flats flop as well you now have a real tough hand with about 35% of your stack in the middle.

On the face of it folding pre might see weak but the more i think about it the more i prefer it.

At first when i looked at this earlier my thoughts were call the 3 bet.

Am i correct in saying a 4 bet would be very bad here.
A Shortie shove for another 4.5kish leaves us with 26k, loads to fold should UTG re shove and enough to shut down should he also flat, unless we hit the turn obv.

I just think 4-betting this spot is risky, either way I really hate to fold this pre.
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Old 01-07-10, 17:56   #6
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A Shortie shove for another 4.5kish leaves us with 26k, loads to fold should UTG re shove and enough to shut down should he also flat, unless we hit the turn obv.

I just think 4-betting this spot is risky, either way I really hate to fold this pre.
I agree a 4 bet seems v bad.

Ya i guess im no expert at omaha but i really find this an extremely interesting spot.
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Old 01-07-10, 18:00   #7
Gimmeabreak
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im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.
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Old 01-07-10, 18:17   #8
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I raise to the shorties stack putting him all in 9k.Utg has the option to ship now if he wishes but if he flats and there is no side pot to fight for I think the hand will play pretty honestly post flop.If utg reships I suppose we have let it go and fight on with 60bbs.
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Old 01-07-10, 18:36   #9
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I raise to the shorties stack putting him all in 9k.Utg has the option to ship now if he wishes but if he flats and there is no side pot to fight for I think the hand will play pretty honestly post flop.If utg reships I suppose we have let it go and fight on with 60bbs.
rasie folding here would be criminal.
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Old 01-07-10, 18:54   #10
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If you pot it Noel to circa 14k your committed too calling utg raisers shove i think.

Would be interested in hearing some respected players views as there is litle omaha tournaments situation is fairly unique.
If it was a cash game an aggressive one repotting all day would be fine you might lose a buy in or two but being a tournament gives it a cool dynamic and obv super tough spot
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Old 01-07-10, 18:57   #11
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This is obv coming from a general pov as clearly not in position to offer any meaningful advice on a 5k plo tourny hand. But if a hand is so tough,so hard to play surely it is a lesser mistake just mucking it than doing anything else. Would your action be different if it was in a monkey game? Should it be?
Theory is theory but I guess the demeneted level of opposition reduces your options a little which makes poker so intresting.
Obv a painful spot to be in but what a spot all the same. Thats what it has to be all about.
Personally it feels better in-I think whatever eq we wind up wtih will prob be ok in relation to the pot and hopefully the deads loots in there.

Last edited by jbravado; 01-07-10 at 18:59.
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Old 01-07-10, 18:57   #12
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im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.
I thought u were one of the best
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Old 01-07-10, 20:58   #13
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Pretty yucky spot i really am at a loss at what i would do here, more than likely call and hope utg does not reship (really narrows his range) and peel a flop ...i am not so worried about MP given your description.

If you raise here it has to be with the intention to get the rest in. I think raise/folding is bad Kieran if UTG raises us now we can fold it and not take too much of a hit by just calling.

Last edited by Jackyback; 01-07-10 at 21:21. Reason: messed up positions
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Old 01-07-10, 21:13   #14
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I repot here, benny spindler is a mentaler, but given your image here, he can only continue with the hand if he has a v good AA hand, you can't polarise his hand to being super-strong just because he has potted utg.

i wouldn't flat here, firstly there is a good chance he will pot, and secondly you are oop against a v aggro player where you will be chk/folding lots.

If he has the nuts, you have a hand with with a decent shot, although one of your suits are prob dead and he'd have a couple blockers

it just looks like too good a spot/hand to let go
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Old 01-07-10, 22:09   #15
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calling is the worst option. you have no fold equity against short stack and it is a marginal hand. call or raise you are at least seeing a flop with the other big stack and with stack sizes position is not much of an advantage. with the action in front and the respect the players have to be showing to eachother i would have to fold pre in general but on the other hand there seems to be no weak spots and you might just have to gamble now if 3b is common otherwise its a clear fold.
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Old 01-07-10, 22:19   #16
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Click it back to induce the Benny character to maybe shove worse. No clue who he is, but given you just mentioned him by name, presume he's decent.
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Old 01-07-10, 22:41   #17
Multidraw
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benny spindler is a young very positionally aggressive nlhe player who will cause problems when average is 15bb. no idea on his plo game. he is more than likely being staked and as a result possibly a bit looser.

Last edited by Multidraw; 01-07-10 at 22:54.
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Old 01-07-10, 23:51   #18
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fold........ ok tank fold
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Old 02-07-10, 01:43   #19
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im surprised you found this such a tough spot
i dont think you can call the mp raise knowing utg is prob gonna shove over the top
so pre flop its either raise or fold,i would def be folding here and waiting for a better spot
have a feeling this hand is annoying you bcause you folded but had you played it you would have won ?
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Old 02-07-10, 02:23   #20
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tank fold and kick kittens
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