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    Dealer mucked hand by accident

    Final table, 6 player out of 115 left.....

    I'm on the button with QQ, blinds 5000/10,000, my stack is 90,000, almost everyone more or less around 100,000....it's folded to me, the BB is hyper aggressive and calling everything, so I announce all in and push my chips in, the BB calls, but when I look for my cards they are gone, the dealer had taken them by accident. It's late, he's human, but to me this should be some sort of misdeal, but instead they call over the td and he makes me bet 20,000, minimum raise and it all goes to the BB....I found this extremely unfair, should I have been penalized so severely for someone else's mistake?......

    #2
    Its up to the player to protect his/ her hand from bastards trying to muck it by mistake

    situation sucks but it is the standard and correct rules


    Comment


      #3
      Get a card protector place it on top of ur cards after u look at them, then shit like this does not happen to u.
      location green and yellow stretford end

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by moekis View Post
        Final table, 6 player out of 115 left.....

        I'm on the button with QQ, blinds 5000/10,000, my stack is 90,000, almost everyone more or less around 100,000....it's folded to me, the BB is hyper aggressive and calling everything, so I announce all in and push my chips in, the BB calls, but when I look for my cards they are gone, the dealer had taken them by accident. It's late, he's human, but to me this should be some sort of misdeal, but instead they call over the td and he makes me bet 20,000, minimum raise and it all goes to the BB....I found this extremely unfair, should I have been penalized so severely for someone else's mistake?......
        If it has been folded around to you with no action and then what happened happened I think you should only have to forfeit the cost of the BB which is 10,000 & not been forced to min-raise you are getting double penalised here for a mistake.
        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
          If it has been folded around to you with no action and then what happened happened I think you should only have to forfeit the cost of the BB which is 10,000 & not been forced to min-raise you are getting double penalised here for a mistake.
          I remember in the Euro Deepstack in 2009, player A raises, Player B next to the dealer moves all in. Back to player A who snap calls with AA but dealer had mucked B's hand already.

          Player B was forced to Min raise and forfeit the chips. imo, this can work both ways, but is not necessarily double peanilising one player. Depending on the BB's holding's in this hand, you could make a case that the BB was peanilised.

          Originally posted by KevIrl
          Laois Hammer just told me of a hand, he raised utg with aces, and a guy shoved for 300Kish from the big blind, but the dealer mucked his hand. Hand dead and the chips returned.
          Last edited by AKDonk; 30-01-13, 12:20.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by moekis View Post
            Final table, 6 player out of 115 left.....

            I'm on the button with QQ, blinds 5000/10,000, my stack is 90,000, almost everyone more or less around 100,000....it's folded to me, the BB is hyper aggressive and calling everything, so I announce all in and push my chips in, the BB calls, but when I look for my cards they are gone, the dealer had taken them by accident. It's late, he's human, but to me this should be some sort of misdeal, but instead they call over the td and he makes me bet 20,000, minimum raise and it all goes to the BB....I found this extremely unfair, should I have been penalized so severely for someone else's mistake?......

            Protect ur cards at all times...

            A bit like boxing, "protect yourself at all times"... Victor Ortiz learned that the hard way against Mayweather..

            This is similar... Your Ortiz and the dealer is Mayweather... It may seem wrong what happened but its legitimate....

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
              If it has been folded around to you with no action and then what happened happened I think you should only have to forfeit the cost of the BB which is 10,000 & not been forced to min-raise you are getting double penalised here for a mistake.
              Yes, you are only responsible for the action, if no-one has called before the error is noted then you should only lose the blind.

              since you say the BB calls and then you notice your cards are gone then all you chips stay in the middle. (up to what the BB stack is, if he covers you youre out.)

              Originally posted by moekis View Post
              Final table, 6 player out of 115 left.....

              I'm on the button with QQ, blinds 5000/10,000, my stack is 90,000, almost everyone more or less around 100,000....it's folded to me, the BB is hyper aggressive and calling everything, so I announce all in and push my chips in, the BB calls, but when I look for my cards they are gone, the dealer had taken them by accident.
              This situation is your fault, it is always the players responsibility to protect your cards and chips. Yes the dealer has screwed up, but that wouldn't have happened if you protected your cards sufficiently. The blame lies solely with the player. (as an aside, Ill come down hard on a dealer away from the table but that is not the concern of players).


              Originally posted by moekis View Post
              It's late, he's human, but to me this should be some sort of misdeal, but instead they call over the td and he makes me bet 20,000, minimum raise and it all goes to the BB....
              You were called before the mistake was noted, you should lose your whole stack.


              Originally posted by moekis View Post
              I found this extremely unfair, should I have been penalized so severely for someone else's mistake?......
              again, its your mistake, you weren't protecting your cards and you lost them.

              as far as making it a misdeal, this is simply ridiculous thinking. The amount of ways that rule could be exploited is uncountable. This gives so many extra outs to people who want to steal chips on a final table, and then they feign ignorance and claim the dealer mucked their cards to get a miss deal.

              Comment


                #8
                This is the most unsatisfactory and unjust rule in all of poker. A dealer fucks up and the player gets double whammied plus some random BB benefits.

                Needs addressing.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by moekis View Post
                  it's folded to me, the BB is hyper aggressive and calling everything, so I announce all in and push my chips in, the BB calls, but when I look for my cards they are gone, the dealer had taken them by accident.
                  Did you need both hands to push your chips in?

                  The safeguards that I know you'll put in place to ensure this never happens to you again are ones which should come naturally to any player not wanting the dealer to have his cards until he is ready to give them up.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    These situtations are always hard , personally I would never begin to trawel the muck once they get there thats that . but leaving in what ever bet the player was facing when they put in there chips seems fare regardless of the Letter of the law. In the intrest of fairness would be first in my head. As for coming down hard on the dealer Ive seen the best dealers do it and they are always Morto over it, no point in adding to it .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The hands dead and barring a spilt pot the bb gets your 90k.
                      Its up to you to protect your hand at all times.
                      If the bb has a hand that beats you highly unlikely its unfair on him.
                      Cant understand making you stick in 20k should be yoru whole stack.

                      Im always wary when im either side of the dealer an always have a card protector even a coin will do.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Absolutely dealer error (we are only human )
                        Protect your cards ( your responsibility ) .
                        In this spot the ruling is correct , min raise taken from your stack and the pot awarded to your opponent .

                        This way you are still in the tournament and a little more wiser .

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by AKDonk View Post
                          I remember in the Euro Deepstack in 2009, player A raises, Player B next to the dealer moves all in. Back to player A who snap calls with AA but dealer had mucked B's hand already.

                          Player B was forced to Min raise and forfeit the chips. imo, this can work both ways, but is not necessarily double peanilising one player. Depending on the BB's holding's in this hand, you could make a case that the BB was peanilised.
                          Yes in that situation it's acceptable to give a min-raise but in the hand outlined there was no action in front of him.
                          "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Strictly speaking if he declared all in then it is binding and a board is dealt out if the BB improves the board he scoops.

                            Making the SB put in a min-raise, really only makes sense if the SB declared ''raise'' as opposed to ''all in''.

                            If the action happened exactly as described in the OP the TD seems to be half accepting it was dealer error, when the reality is it is always the players responsibility to protect their own two cards.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                              This is the most unsatisfactory and unjust rule in all of poker. A dealer fucks up and the player gets double whammied plus some random BB benefits.

                              Needs addressing.
                              As in all things you and you alone are responsible to look after your own possessions. As a grown adult you are expected to monitor and be aware of what is going on. If you are careless with any item, be it house keys. Wallet or cards on the table and they go missing or are damaged then you and you alone are to blame. It is a minor thing to ask. Most people would not leave the cash they paid to enter the tourney on the table without keeping one eye on it so why should they be careless with their cards which represent more value? Yes the dealers make an error and they will have to suffer consequences. But the error would not have occured if the player was more careful. I have played live poker for the best part of 2 decades and I have never had my hand mucked because I always look after my cards

                              Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
                              The hands dead and barring a spilt pot the bb gets your 90k.
                              Its up to you to protect your hand at all times.
                              If the bb has a hand that beats you highly unlikely its unfair on him.
                              Cant understand making you stick in 20k should be yoru whole stack.

                              Im always wary when im either side of the dealer an always have a card protector even a coin will do.
                              Once the hand is mucked you are gone from the game. Even should the board be a royal flush you cannot claim a share of the winnings as you no longer have a complete hand.

                              I also dont get the thinking behind taking a minimum raise. The BB had risked the call for the full amount. And through no error of his he is punished and given a token arbitrary number of chips

                              This smacks of being too soft. As a floorperson it is not your job to be nice. To make friends. To be forgiving when a player makes an error. It is your job to enforce the rules and sometimes take a hard decision. This situation could so easily be resolved and avoided if the player was looking after his cards as he is required to in the rules of the game.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                @the great Liam,
                                How do the dealers suffer as you say? They DONT unfortunately.

                                If the dealers were given a penalty (suspended from the tournament) it would not happen near as much.

                                Dealers go into autopilot and just start raking (pardon the pun) everything in sight into muck.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  True Noel but if its the players job to protect their hand then there is no point coming down hard on a Dealer for taking them in error . my point to be honest was more to do with how much the player should have to forfit, I recon as little as is fair to the other players who have acted before him, or do you think the player should pay a huge price too?

                                  Cheers Liam.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    look at the video up above... the lady moves all in and (like 90% of the poker world) she probably uses her chips to card protect. Obviously she cant use her chips to protect as she has clearly, distinctly and physically moved her chips to the centre of the table. She has done everything 100% right. She then, naturally, is engrossed to see what her opponent is about to do! In those few seconds, the dealer, makes a horrendous mistake and pulls in the cards.

                                    This thing of "players must protect their hands at ALL times" is crazy. I was at a tournie a couple of years ago and a kid on the bb was raised into. He annouces "all in" and, as he moves the chips forward, the dealer grabs his cards from under the players arms and mucks them!! How the hell does a player protect their cards in that situation!

                                    When these situations occur, what is wrong with retrieving the cards if the player can successfully name & suit them?

                                    Look at that video example and that player has done exactly what 99% of us would do in that situation! 100% dealer fault (the "house") and, the as stated dealers are human and make mistakes... but is this not a mistake (by the house) easily rectified if the player (the innocent party) has paid attention to their cards?
                                    Last edited by westlife; 31-01-13, 17:45.
                                    D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                      As in all things you and you alone are responsible to look after your own possessions. As a grown adult you are expected to monitor and be aware of what is going on. If you are careless with any item, be it house keys. Wallet or cards on the table and they go missing or are damaged then you and you alone are to blame. It is a minor thing to ask. Most people would not leave the cash they paid to enter the tourney on the table without keeping one eye on it so why should they be careless with their cards which represent more value? Yes the dealers make an error and they will have to suffer consequences. But the error would not have occured if the player was more careful. I have played live poker for the best part of 2 decades and I have never had my hand mucked because I always look after my cards



                                      Once the hand is mucked you are gone from the game. Even should the board be a royal flush you cannot claim a share of the winnings as you no longer have a complete hand.

                                      I also dont get the thinking behind taking a minimum raise. The BB had risked the call for the full amount. And through no error of his he is punished and given a token arbitrary number of chips

                                      This smacks of being too soft. As a floorperson it is not your job to be nice. To make friends. To be forgiving when a player makes an error. It is your job to enforce the rules and sometimes take a hard decision. This situation could so easily be resolved and avoided if the player was looking after his cards as he is required to in the rules of the game.
                                      If a burglar comes into your house while your in bed, is it your fault you've lost your car keys because your asleep?
                                      D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Hey Phil I agree but are u suggesting going into the muck , or minimising the cost to the player , I don't think u can say all that much to the dealer , perhaps if the house rotated the dealers more it might reduce what is an auto piolit problem. At this stage I get the player to leave in what ever bet they were facing and take back the rest, which at least keeps the player in . Don't think there's a perfect solution as is so often the case u can only be consistent in what action u take .

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Celtic Poker View Post
                                          Hey Phil I agree but are u suggesting going into the muck , or minimising the cost to the player , I don't think u can say all that much to the dealer , perhaps if the house rotated the dealers more it might reduce what is an auto piolit problem. At this stage I get the player to leave in what ever bet they were facing and take back the rest, which at least keeps the player in . Don't think there's a perfect solution as is so often the case u can only be consistent in what action u take .
                                          I think that dealers, ALL dealers, even with regular pushes, will make mistakes every now and then. They (unless they are consistently showing a level of ineptitude) should not be chastised for the odd error.

                                          In the case of the young guy on the bb (see my previous post) ...how does he protect his cards?
                                          D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            @thegreatliam

                                            yes i agree that second best option is to enforce the rule but have it so as you say where the cost to the players is minimised but unfortunately the cost is really significant when the stack to blind ratio is high i.e. at the latter stages when money value of chips is really high.

                                            why is there not a standard rule that all tables have the line whereby if the cards are over the line they are muckable and likewise when you push chips over that line they are considered a bet?

                                            i guess it's to to with the additional cost as felt has to be replaced quite often and so its a cost issue/practicality.

                                            the rule as is stands (whereby it's always the players responsibilty) is an easy way to solve the whole thing but in practice you can see just how darned unfair it turns out to be.
                                            Last edited by bustamoves; 31-01-13, 20:41.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Definately a standard set of rules would be great however I cant see it ever happening, too many parties involved nationally and internationally .
                                              As Phil said there is no way a player can always protect his cards and human error will always crop up . a bit like the refere in a match players would be happier if the got consitant rulings.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I already drafted this answer once, but it didnt load, so i might repeat by accident.

                                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                @the great Liam,
                                                How do the dealers suffer as you say? They DONT unfortunately.

                                                If the dealers were given a penalty (suspended from the tournament) it would not happen near as much.

                                                Dealers go into autopilot and just start raking (pardon the pun) everything in sight into muck.
                                                The dealer do suffer, I my self have recommend dealers to be removed from the event, and worse. At the end of the day it is up to the employer to decide if they will rehire them for future events.
                                                And if the dealer is punished it is a behind the scenes decision. and no concern of the players

                                                Originally posted by Celtic Poker View Post
                                                True Noel but if its the players job to protect their hand then there is no point coming down hard on a Dealer for taking them in error . my point to be honest was more to do with how much the player should have to forfit, I recon as little as is fair to the other players who have acted before him, or do you think the player should pay a huge price too?

                                                Cheers Liam.
                                                The player forfeits by losing their cards, its not about enforcing a punishment for their mistake, their mistake is punishment enough. If he bets or calls all in then the chips are lost into the pot just like any other bet. If he is making a raise and it is uncalled before the error is noted then they are only responsible for the action up to that point. the uncalled portion is not in the pot so is returned. any chips that have been called must remain in the pot.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                look at the video up above... the lady moves all in and (like 90% of the poker world) she probably uses her chips to card protect. Obviously she cant use her chips to protect as she has clearly, distinctly and physically moved her chips to the centre of the table. She has done everything 100% right.
                                                But she hasnt, she hasnt guarded her cards, she can easily use a chip from her stack, keep hold of her cards or put a card protector on them.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                She then, naturally, is engrossed to see what her opponent is about to do! In those few seconds, the dealer, makes a horrendous mistake and pulls in the cards.
                                                by being engrossed she is not paying attention. inattentiveness has cost her the tournament. same as inattentiveness when doing anything, the only person who can be blamed is herself.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                This thing of "players must protect their hands at ALL times" is crazy. I was at a tournie a couple of years ago and a kid on the bb was raised into. He annouces "all in" and, as he moves the chips forward, the dealer grabs his cards from under the players arms and mucks them!! How the hell does a player protect their cards in that situation!
                                                Seriously, there a re a million and one ways to protect your hand, number one being pay attention. As dealers and floorstaff we are not there to babysit. If you lose something by not paying attention then you only have your self to blame.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                When these situations occur, what is wrong with retrieving the cards if the player can successfully name & suit them?
                                                Because that is too easy to exploit. Why give someone the chance to possibly see an ace get folded, then accuse the dealer of mucking their cards so they can later claim 'i had the ace of hearts' It is a much simpler rule to begin with to state 'these are your cards, you and you alone are responsible for them. if you fail to look after them there is no redress'

                                                Besides at this stage of the hand the muck has so many cards in it they could just guess at 2 cards and be in with a chance of them being in there.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                Look at that video example and that player has done exactly what 99% of us would do in that situation! 100% dealer fault (the "house") and, the as stated dealers are human and make mistakes... but is this not a mistake (by the house) easily rectified if the player (the innocent party) has paid attention to their cards?
                                                She hasnt done what 99% of people do, she has done what very few people do. most people have the sense at this stage to look after their stuff. Players are all grown adults they alone are responsible.

                                                There a plenty of ways to avoid this kind of mistake.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                If a burglar comes into your house while your in bed, is it your fault you've lost your car keys because your asleep?
                                                This is just a laughable comment. firstly, i dont have a car. But i i go to bed and leave my door and windows open and the lights on cos I was "naturally paying attention to something else", then its my own fault I got robbed.
                                                Secondly, it is not the same situation. a better example would be, If i leave my keys on the kitchen sink, knowing that they could fall down the drain where ill never be able to get them back but I get distracted by something else and then someone else knocks them in, is it my fault for leaving them in such a dangerous place when i could have simply moved them? or is it the other persons fault so not seeing them and knocking them in.
                                                In some circumstances you simply have to take responsibility that your inaction could have prevented a situation.

                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                I think that dealers, ALL dealers, even with regular pushes, will make mistakes every now and then. They (unless they are consistently showing a level of ineptitude) should not be chastised for the odd error.
                                                Yes all dealers, even when they are not tired, make mistakes. And players are aware of this, so they are given plenty of opportunities to prevent and minimse these errors. The first being 'protect your cards at all times, if they are mucked there is no redress'
                                                Like I said earlier, i have never had my cards mucked in 2 decades of live poker.
                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                In the case of the young guy on the bb (see my previous post) ...how does he protect his cards?
                                                See previous answers, but I will always favour the 'just keep hold of them'
                                                Simply paying attention to your cards is usually ample measure to prevent them being mucked. In all cases I have seen the player in question is distracted by something else, either talking to the rail, praying for a one time or something as equally irrelevant to the situation. If you simply cannot pay attention to something as important as the cards you are betting on then do not let them go.

                                                Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                                @thegreatliam
                                                yes i agree that second best option is to enforce the rule but have it so as you say where the cost to the players is minimised but unfortunately the cost is really significant when the stack to blind ratio is high i.e. at the latter stages when money value of chips is really high.

                                                why is there not a standard rule that all tables have the line whereby if the cards are over the line they are muckable and likewise when you push chips over that line they are considered a bet?

                                                i guess it's to to with the additional cost as felt has to be replaced quite often and so its a cost issue/practicality.

                                                the rule as is stands (whereby it's always the players responsibilty) is an easy way to solve the whole thing but in practice you can see just how darned unfair it turns out to be.
                                                There is a standard rule, it is literally the first rule in the book in 90% of the written rule books (if its not first it will be second)

                                                It is simply this: 'Poker players: Look after your own shit. You are a grown adult. We will not look after it for you. If you misplace, lose it or are otherwise careless with it and it disappears then you only have your self to blame.' Admittedly I am paraphrasing, but that is essentially what the rule boils down to.


                                                Originally posted by Celtic Poker View Post
                                                Definately a standard set of rules would be great however I cant see it ever happening, too many parties involved nationally and internationally .
                                                As Phil said there is no way a player can always protect his cards and human error will always crop up . a bit like the refere in a match players would be happier if the got consitant rulings.
                                                sadly there are a set of standard rules, but most people who are in a position to enforce them have not read them.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                  I already drafted this answer once, but it didnt load, so i might repeat by accident.



                                                  The dealer do suffer, I my self have recommend dealers to be removed from the event, and worse. At the end of the day it is up to the employer to decide if they will rehire them for future events.
                                                  And if the dealer is punished it is a behind the scenes decision. and no concern of the players



                                                  The player forfeits by losing their cards, its not about enforcing a punishment for their mistake, their mistake is punishment enough. If he bets or calls all in then the chips are lost into the pot just like any other bet. If he is making a raise and it is uncalled before the error is noted then they are only responsible for the action up to that point. the uncalled portion is not in the pot so is returned. any chips that have been called must remain in the pot.


                                                  But she hasnt, she hasnt guarded her cards, she can easily use a chip from her stack, keep hold of her cards or put a card protector on them.


                                                  by being engrossed she is not paying attention. inattentiveness has cost her the tournament. same as inattentiveness when doing anything, the only person who can be blamed is herself.



                                                  Seriously, there a re a million and one ways to protect your hand, number one being pay attention. As dealers and floorstaff we are not there to babysit. If you lose something by not paying attention then you only have your self to blame.



                                                  Because that is too easy to exploit. Why give someone the chance to possibly see an ace get folded, then accuse the dealer of mucking their cards so they can later claim 'i had the ace of hearts' It is a much simpler rule to begin with to state 'these are your cards, you and you alone are responsible for them. if you fail to look after them there is no redress'

                                                  Besides at this stage of the hand the muck has so many cards in it they could just guess at 2 cards and be in with a chance of them being in there.



                                                  She hasnt done what 99% of people do, she has done what very few people do. most people have the sense at this stage to look after their stuff. Players are all grown adults they alone are responsible.

                                                  There a plenty of ways to avoid this kind of mistake.



                                                  This is just a laughable comment. firstly, i dont have a car. But i i go to bed and leave my door and windows open and the lights on cos I was "naturally paying attention to something else", then its my own fault I got robbed.
                                                  Secondly, it is not the same situation. a better example would be, If i leave my keys on the kitchen sink, knowing that they could fall down the drain where ill never be able to get them back but I get distracted by something else and then someone else knocks them in, is it my fault for leaving them in such a dangerous place when i could have simply moved them? or is it the other persons fault so not seeing them and knocking them in.
                                                  In some circumstances you simply have to take responsibility that your inaction could have prevented a situation.



                                                  Yes all dealers, even when they are not tired, make mistakes. And players are aware of this, so they are given plenty of opportunities to prevent and minimse these errors. The first being 'protect your cards at all times, if they are mucked there is no redress'
                                                  Like I said earlier, i have never had my cards mucked in 2 decades of live poker.

                                                  See previous answers, but I will always favour the 'just keep hold of them'
                                                  Simply paying attention to your cards is usually ample measure to prevent them being mucked. In all cases I have seen the player in question is distracted by something else, either talking to the rail, praying for a one time or something as equally irrelevant to the situation. If you simply cannot pay attention to something as important as the cards you are betting on then do not let them go.



                                                  There is a standard rule, it is literally the first rule in the book in 90% of the written rule books (if its not first it will be second)

                                                  It is simply this: 'Poker players: Look after your own shit. You are a grown adult. We will not look after it for you. If you misplace, lose it or are otherwise careless with it and it disappears then you only have your self to blame.' Admittedly I am paraphrasing, but that is essentially what the rule boils down to.




                                                  sadly there are a set of standard rules, but most people who are in a position to enforce them have not read them.
                                                  Seriously, please tell me how you protect your cards when, whilst in seat 1, you are physically pushing all your chips forward, with both hands, to the centre of the table. While both hands are fully extended, the dealer whips your cards into the muck.............
                                                  D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                    Seriously, please tell me how you protect your cards when, whilst in seat 1, you are physically pushing all your chips forward, with both hands, to the centre of the table. While both hands are fully extended, the dealer whips your cards into the muck.............
                                                    hold on to them, stop trying to make things harder than they really are.

                                                    firstly there is no need to push your chips in. just say all in.

                                                    or use one hand to push your chips in

                                                    secondly, you are entitled to a card protector,

                                                    thirdly, hold on to them.

                                                    if you are in seat 1 or 9 then you know you are in a more dangerous place, so dont leave your cards somewhere were they can easily be grabbed.

                                                    also, hold on to them. if a dealer wants to muck my cards, which my tournament life is crucially attached to then he is going to have to rip them from my hand to do so.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                      hold on to them, stop trying to make things harder than they really are.

                                                      firstly there is no need to push your chips in. just say all in.

                                                      or use one hand to push your chips in

                                                      secondly, you are entitled to a card protector,

                                                      thirdly, hold on to them.

                                                      if you are in seat 1 or 9 then you know you are in a more dangerous place, so dont leave your cards somewhere were they can easily be grabbed.

                                                      also, hold on to them. if a dealer wants to muck my cards, which my tournament life is crucially attached to then he is going to have to rip them from my hand to do so.
                                                      re done this answer:
                                                      You are unaware of the fact that all 'all ins' must be matched by pushing all (or the high denoms) into the centre.
                                                      This is getting trivial, so let me just say that I have spent thousands of hours on the live tables of many mid-high level games and the what you are talking about in self protecting your cards is, at best, making a 12 hour sitting feel like 24 hours. Not 1 player in the history of poker has gone to the levels of card protection that you are talking about. It has to be the "real world" and when a dealer (the paid professional) makes an error, then a suitable outcome should be allotted to the innocent party (the customer).
                                                      Last edited by westlife; 01-02-13, 13:52.
                                                      D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        thegreatiam speaks the truth.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                          re done this answer:
                                                          You are unaware of the fact that all 'all ins' must be matched by pushing all (or the high denoms) into the centre.
                                                          not a rule, a verbal bet is binding. If i say 'im all in' I am bound to that action. there is no need for me to put my chips in the middle of the pot.

                                                          Your statement is even contradictory,
                                                          by pushing all (or the high denoms) into the centre.
                                                          if i only need to put the high denoms in the middle then I don't need to push my whole stack in. you either have to push them all in or none.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                            not a rule, a verbal bet is binding. If i say 'im all in' I am bound to that action. there is no need for me to put my chips in the middle of the pot.

                                                            Your statement is even contradictory,

                                                            if i only need to put the high denoms in the middle then I don't need to push my whole stack in. you either have to push them all in or none.
                                                            your wrong, the rule is (everywhere) that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out!
                                                            D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                              This is getting trivial, so let me just say that I have spent thousands of hours on the live tables of many mid-high level games and the what you are talking about in self protecting your cards is, at best, making a 12 hour sitting feel like 24 hours. Not 1 player in the history of poker has gone to the levels of card protection that you are talking about. It has to be the "real world" and when a dealer (the paid professional) makes an error, then a suitable outcome should be allotted to the innocent party (the customer).
                                                              Well, i have spent many countless hours running and dealing the games you are playing. in all levels, and the act of protecting your cards is the simplest thing to ask a player.

                                                              All they need to do is look after their cards. It is a trivial and minor thing to do. In fact, the overwhelming majority of player will consciously and sub consciously protect their cards, with with a chip lighter, lucky charm or simply not casually leaving them where than can easily be mucked.

                                                              In the vast majority of cases players do not even need to be reminded to do this simple action, its a natural as checking for the presence of your phone, keys or wallet.

                                                              It is only those players that are easily distracted and are careless with their cards that end up having them mucked.

                                                              And to them the only thing we can say is be more careful next time.

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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                your wrong, the rule is (everywhere) that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out!
                                                                prove it

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                  Well, i have spent many countless hours running and dealing the games you are playing.
                                                                  Prove it

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                    Prove it
                                                                    How do you want proof damo?

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                      How do you want proof damo?
                                                                      Wp Sir, wp

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                        prove it
                                                                        prove it?
                                                                        Why would I need to prove it to a professional dealer? JP McCann, Nick O'Hara, Toby Stone, Luke Ivory are the TD's at 99% of the games that you are telling me you deal at. If you are unaware of this rule then you are not listening properly at the dealer meeting before the events!

                                                                        Morihei, you are right!
                                                                        D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                          prove it?
                                                                          Why would I need to prove it to a professional dealer? JP McCann, Nick O'Hara, Toby Stone, Luke Ivory are the TD's at 99% of the games that you are telling me you deal at. If you are unaware of this rule then you are not listening properly at the dealer meeting before the events!

                                                                          Morihei, you are right!
                                                                          Point is, you cant prove it, cos its not in any rule book written down anywhere that a player must put his chips into the center of the table for a bet to count. in fact it is written as the opposite.

                                                                          All verbal actions are binding.

                                                                          A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold, check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action.
                                                                          this means that once you have declared your action you are bound to it, the chips can be placed in however you choose as the verbal bet will be what stands.

                                                                          please dont make me say booyah!

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                            Point is, you cant prove it, cos its not in any rule book written down anywhere that a player must put his chips into the center of the table for a bet to count. in fact it is written as the opposite.

                                                                            All verbal actions are binding.



                                                                            this means that once you have declared your action you are bound to it, the chips can be placed in however you choose as the verbal bet will be what stands.

                                                                            please dont make me say booyah!
                                                                            You are right so! when declaring "ALL IN" the dealers are NOT supposed to tell the players to move their chips (all OR high denom if they have zillions) in to the centre. Cant really say anything more about this because it would be pointless.... WP.....
                                                                            Last edited by westlife; 01-02-13, 14:56.
                                                                            D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                              You are right so! when declaring "ALL IN" the dealers are NOT supposed to tell the players to move their chips (all OR high denom if they have zillions) in to the centre. Cant really say anything more about this because it would be pointless.... WP.....
                                                                              Dealer procedure is not a rule.

                                                                              The procedure exists to help players follow the action. It is not a binding rule.

                                                                              and at no stage should a player put in a position where they believe that putting their chips in the center is more important than protecting their cards.

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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                Dealer procedure is not a rule.

                                                                                The procedure exists to help players follow the action. It is not a binding rule.

                                                                                and at no stage should a player put in a position where they believe that putting their chips in the center is more important than protecting their cards.
                                                                                who said it was? Your are talking about 2 two totally different things.The protecting of cards is relevant only to the player with the cards... the moving of chips forward is relevant only to everybody else at the table.

                                                                                Toby Stone, at the 2011 UKIPT Newcastle, made a ruling that the game is a visual one and a player does NOT have to declare all in. Just putting, without any verbal, all you chips in the centre IS an all in. If the dealer does not annouce this action (and players are in visually disadvantaged seats and dont see this)...it is still an all in! So the Verbal has the exact same declaration (no better) than the push! Both are equal,and binding, declarations of all in.

                                                                                The comment you have stated, as a professional dealer who has dealt at big events over the last few years, that it is NOT a requirement to put your chips in the middle after an "all in" declaration.
                                                                                D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  lol Id say your tournies are a barrell of fcukin laughs

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                    who said it was?
                                                                                    You did, your statement was that a player could not protect his hand because he was trying to put his chips in after he had said all in.

                                                                                    My point is if you say all in then there is no need to put your chips in,

                                                                                    Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                    Toby Stone, at the 2011 UKIPT Newcastle, made a ruling that the game is a visual one and a player does NOT have to declare all in. Just putting, without any verbal, all you chips in the centre IS an all in. If the dealer does not annouce this action (and players are in visually disadvantaged seats and dont see this)...it is still an all in! So the Verbal has the exact same declaration (no better) than the push! Both are equal,and binding, declarations of all in.
                                                                                    Yes, this is a fact, and something i have never debated. Putting your all chips in silently is binding. as is declaring an action verbally.
                                                                                    Neither of which i disagree with and neither have any bearing or relevance to this thread on protecting your cards.

                                                                                    Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                    The comment you have stated, as a professional dealer who has dealt at big events over the last few years, that it is NOT a requirement to put your chips in the middle after an "all in" declaration.
                                                                                    It is not a requirement to put any chips in, as verbal action is not only binding but the more paramount of the 2. Any bets made are always taken to the verbal statement, unless the chips are in before anything is said.

                                                                                    If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement.
                                                                                    You can declare all in, and then put your chips in at your leisure, one at a time if you want to. So at no point is a player ever forced into the position you described where it is impossible for them to protect their own cards.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                      hold on to them, stop trying to make things harder than they really are.

                                                                                      firstly there is no need to push your chips in. just say all in.

                                                                                      or use one hand to push your chips in

                                                                                      secondly, you are entitled to a card protector,

                                                                                      thirdly, hold on to them.

                                                                                      if you are in seat 1 or 9 then you know you are in a more dangerous place, so dont leave your cards somewhere were they can easily be grabbed.

                                                                                      also, hold on to them. if a dealer wants to muck my cards, which my tournament life is crucially attached to then he is going to have to rip them from my hand to do so.
                                                                                      You are now contradicting yourself!!
                                                                                      D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam;668367[B
                                                                                        ]not a rule, a verbal bet is binding. If i say 'im all in' I am bound to that action. there is no need for me to put my chips in the middle of the pot. [/B]

                                                                                        Your statement is even contradictory,

                                                                                        if i only need to put the high denoms in the middle then I don't need to push my whole stack in. you either have to push them all in or none.
                                                                                        and again
                                                                                        D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                          You are now contradicting yourself!!
                                                                                          what you have quoted there is what I have said in every post. So unless you and I are reading different threads I'm not sure how i am contradicting my self.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                            and again
                                                                                            well done, thats actually me pointing out the contradiction in your statement. not an actual statement by me.

                                                                                            let me clarify:

                                                                                            your statemtent was: you must put all your chips in to go all in. Or some of your chips in.

                                                                                            so which is it?

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                              well done, thats actually me pointing out the contradiction in your statement. not an actual statement by me.

                                                                                              let me clarify:

                                                                                              your statemtent was: you must put all your chips in to go all in. Or some of your chips in.

                                                                                              so which is it?
                                                                                              Please show me where i said this
                                                                                              My statement has been, and consistently been, that when you have DECLARED all in, you must put your high denom chips or entire stack forward. You need to read the posts a little better before making comments. Your statement (2 above)was that you do not need tomove your chips in after declaration..... now you say you can do it 1 at a time...
                                                                                              Which is it!
                                                                                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                Please show me where i said this
                                                                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                all 'all ins' must be matched by pushing all (or the high denoms) into the centre.
                                                                                                It's not only an incorrect statement but its ambiguous.
                                                                                                Which do i have to put in? all of my chips? or just the high ones?

                                                                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                Your statement (2 above)was that you do not need tomove your chips in after declaration..... now you say you can do it 1 at a time...
                                                                                                Which is it!
                                                                                                My statement was, and still is, once the action is verbalised you are bound to it. What you then do with your chips is up to you.

                                                                                                Yes you can put them all in if you wish, or leave them out, or put them in one at a time, or put half of them in or only the red ones.

                                                                                                This is because there is no requirement to put your chips in on a verbal all in.

                                                                                                what you have done is confused being asked to put your chips in as a courtesy to the other players, with an actual rule that has been written in black and white and available for anyone to read for a good number of years.

                                                                                                and again, neither situation has any bearing on your cards being protected.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  My initial comment was

                                                                                                  your wrong, the rule is (everywhere) that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out!.

                                                                                                  your answers have been
                                                                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post

                                                                                                  firstly there is no need to push your chips in. just say all in.
                                                                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                  not a rule, a verbal bet is binding. If i say 'im all in' I am bound to that action. there is no need for me to put my chips in the middle of the pot.
                                                                                                  Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                  if i only need to put the high denoms in the middle then I don't need to push my whole stack in. you either have to push them all in or none.
                                                                                                  These are your quotes from earlier. Still stand by this? Or have you made a phone call yet to find out the ruling??
                                                                                                  D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                    It's not only an incorrect statement but its ambiguous.
                                                                                                    Which do i have to put in? all of my chips? or just the high ones?



                                                                                                    My statement was, and still is, once the action is verbalised you are bound to it. What you then do with your chips is up to you.

                                                                                                    Yes you can put them all in if you wish, or leave them out, or put them in one at a time, or put half of them in or only the red ones.

                                                                                                    This is because there is no requirement to put your chips in on a verbal all in.

                                                                                                    what you have done is confused being asked to put your chips in as a courtesy to the other players, with an actual rule that has been written in black and white and available for anyone to read for a good number of years.

                                                                                                    and again, neither situation has any bearing on your cards being protected.
                                                                                                    Wow, awaiting the mentioned TD's response to this. Having a dealer employed at the festivals who does not know this is a rule at every game in Ireland is a poor reflection on your ability/attention to the basics at dealer meetings. This puts you in a poor position to be commenting on anything to do with poker...... as a paid professional. And this from a non pro rec player!!
                                                                                                    D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                      My initial comment was

                                                                                                      your wrong, the rule is (everywhere) that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out!.

                                                                                                      your answers have been
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by thegreatiam

                                                                                                      firstly there is no need to push your chips in. just say all in.
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by thegreatiam
                                                                                                      not a rule, a verbal bet is binding. If i say 'im all in' I am bound to that action. there is no need for me to put my chips in the middle of the pot.
                                                                                                      Quote:
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                      if i only need to put the high denoms in the middle then I don't need to push my whole stack in. you either have to push them all in or none.
                                                                                                      These are your quotes from earlier. Still stand by this? Or have you made a phone call yet to find out the ruling??
                                                                                                      Yes I stand by this, the first and second quotes are me saying what the rule is.
                                                                                                      the third is me quoting you and questioning what you said.

                                                                                                      but i can understand your confusion

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Jesus, don't make Westlife angry.

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                          Wow, awaiting the mentioned TD's response to this. Having a dealer employed at the festivals who does not know this is a rule at every game in Ireland is a poor reflection on your ability/attention to the basics at dealer meetings. This puts you in a poor position to be commenting on anything to do with poker...... as a paid professional. And this from a non pro rec player!!
                                                                                                          Nice try, but im not a dealer.

                                                                                                          nice to see a sensible reaction to an internet thread is to try and have someone fired. classy moves.

                                                                                                          As it happens, what I have quoted you is directly from rule books. What you are discussing are dealer procedures. These are both 2 very different things.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                            Yes I stand by this, the first and second quotes are me saying what the rule is.
                                                                                                            the third is me quoting you and questioning what you said.

                                                                                                            but i can understand your confusion
                                                                                                            please show me where i said quote 3 or... was this a response from you to a quote.....
                                                                                                            try keep up,You are getting confused!

                                                                                                            If I am wrong,then I am wrong, but its no reflection on my professionalism as I am not a professional poker dealer. But if I am right about the ruling of putting your chips in the middle when declaring all in (will talk to JP and Nick later) would this not be a horrendous reflection on you, that, after years of being paid to deal at the highest level, you did not know this?
                                                                                                            D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                                              Jesus, don't make Westlife angry.
                                                                                                              was waiting for that (for days)
                                                                                                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                                Nice try, but im not a dealer.

                                                                                                                nice to see a sensible reaction to an internet thread is to try and have someone fired. classy moves.

                                                                                                                As it happens, what I have quoted you is directly from rule books. What you are discussing are dealer procedures. These are both 2 very different things.
                                                                                                                Then why does every dealer, at every tournament, ask you to do this if it's not a rule?
                                                                                                                D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                                                                                  Then why does every dealer, at every tournament, ask you to do this if it's not a rule?
                                                                                                                  cos its a procedure, seriously, what are you having difficulty with.

                                                                                                                  And stop with the veiled threats of trying to get me fired. It wont work.

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Is it not 'the great i am?'

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                                                      Jesus, don't make Westlife angry.
                                                                                                                      Weshtlife is a big cuddly teddybear

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                                                                        cos its a procedure, seriously, what are you having difficulty with.

                                                                                                                        And stop with the veiled threats of trying to get me fired. It wont work.
                                                                                                                        So, if every dealer insists that it must be done then what is the difference between a rule and procedure? Can I refuse to put the chips in the middle without incuring a warning/ penalty?

                                                                                                                        How can I get you fired? You are the one making quotes on a poker forum. You are the one posting as a professional poker person! As Dice will tell you, veiling my threats, unfortunately, is not something I have done recently. No job costing wished for!
                                                                                                                        D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

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