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Rush Poker - 10nl

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    Rush Poker - 10nl

    Rush Poker, so I don't have any reads on my opponents other than the obvious stack size rule, he has > 150bbs, so I assume he's competent.

    No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP ($18.74)
    Hero (CO) ($16.63)
    Button ($9.91)
    SB ($9.95)
    BB ($16.48)
    UTG ($17.61)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with J, A
    2 folds, Hero bets $0.35, 2 folds, BB raises $1, Hero calls $0.75

    Flop: ($2.25) 7, 6, A (2 players)
    BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

    Turn: ($5.25) 10 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    River: ($5.25) 2 (2 players)
    BB bets $3, Hero calls $3

    Total pot: $11.25

    I call the 3bet as I have position, we are deep(ish), and I've noticed that BB's are 3betting frequently enough vs MP/CO bets in Rush so far.

    He fires out a standard C-bet on the flop, and I call. I think I am ahead here a whole lot, so folding is out of the question, and raising means I miss an opportunity for him to bluff/C-bet the turn, so I figure calling is the best play here.

    On the turn he checks, again making me think I'm ahead here, I check behind hoping that he will take a stab at a river. I'm in two minds about this check. Should I have bet here? If he has a FD, is allowing him see the river for free a bad idea here? Also, on this replay, I see that the board has become very wet with this turn card, should I be betting as a bluff here? Or is it check/ re evaluate river?

    On the river, he insta bets for 60% of pot, I don't consider folding, and raising will only get called by hands that beat me, so I call.


    Comments on all streets welcome

    #2
    Ugh, I just wanna fold here vs this line and bet size. I think he has AK and AQ alot. Players at these stakes get it hard to bet 3streets with TPTK in 3 bets pots imo.

    Comment


      #3
      This is why i don't mind a fold preflop without reads, its slightly deep so AJo is rarely flopping a monster and it obviously has reversed implied odds, you cant get it on a A high and you cant get it in on J high, your probably going to be pot controlling when your ahead and losing a big pot when your behind.

      If you have reads that he likes to 3bet suited Aces deep then i might be inclined to call but without reads AJ really isn't that strong even with position so its just not worth the extra hassle trying to play a guessing game.

      As played its difficult without reads what type of range he might have on the turn, when he checks the turn if we bet we just fold out the air out of hes range thats giving up but we protect against drawy hands like 87,JT, straight draws and flush draws and there is a lot of combinations and when he checks i think you can rule out hands like 2 pair, sets and straights as i dont expect a competent player to allow you a free card with most of those.

      We also get called by Ax and again if hes competent he might have some Axs hands were ahead of too but most Axs that we beat will check for pot control unless theyve TP combo draw so i prefer a bet on the turn for thin value and protection

      Checking seems ok too as now he still can bluff with all hes air hands which you would have folded out with a turn bet with the downside being you give all the draws a free card and they probably wont pay you off now unless they hit.

      So if i had reads that hes range is more like Suited Aces and suited connectors, PP etc id prefer betting the turn for thin value and protection and if i think hes more air in hes range then i prefer turning my hand into a bluff catcher by checking the turn and appearing weak. When you do just that i think you have to call the river bet as he is probably taking a stab with a wide range their giving how weak you look.

      Comment


        #4
        I don't think seeing a flop here is a good idea. 4bet or fold pre-flop. 4betting a BB/Sb 3bet is quite profitable at the moment in this game.

        Regs in this game are not that hard to spot even without tracking software so some meta game rules still apply and having to fold to 5bet now and again is a lot better than the mess you can get yourself into on a board like this.

        There are much better hands to peel a 3bet in position with, small pp's and suited connectors are still good stacking opportunities with good implied odds.
        sigpic
        www.d4events.com

        Comment


          #5
          If I was BB, I play 22-AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQs, QJs, QTs exactly the same pre.

          I continue pretty close to 100% of the time.

          Pots getting quite big on turn, so I check for pot control with a lot of this range.

          Sense weakness in MP's check behind, and stab a brick river.

          I'm ahead of a lot of that range still. Nobody with me on this?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by shortstack View Post
            I don't think seeing a flop here is a good idea. 4bet or fold pre-flop. 4betting a BB/Sb 3bet is quite profitable at the moment in this game.

            Regs in this game are not that hard to spot even without tracking software so some meta game rules still apply and having to fold to 5bet now and again is a lot better than the mess you can get yourself into on a board like this.

            There are much better hands to peel a 3bet in position with, small pp's and suited connectors are still good stacking opportunities with good implied odds.
            This. Gets everything important imo.

            Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
            If I was BB, I play 22-AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQs, QJs, QTs exactly the same pre.

            I continue pretty close to 100% of the time.

            Pots getting quite big on turn, so I check for pot control with a lot of this range.

            Sense weakness in MP's check behind, and stab a brick river.

            I'm ahead of a lot of that range still. Nobody with me on this?
            I'm not with you anyway! 3 betting that range is kerrrazy!
            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
              This. Gets everything important imo.



              I'm not with you anyway! 3 betting that range is kerrrazy!
              I never 3 bet this range in normal 6max, but people are very weak in Rush. I have won a lot of pots from BB 3betting MP/CO/BTN, either to the instafold or when I donk Cbet and they fold.

              For arguments sake, what would you put him on? I know the hand he had, so perhaps thats why I'm giving that wide a range..

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                when I donk Cbet and they fold.
                Not sure what you mean by this? Just calling a pfr oop and donking?

                Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                For arguments sake, what would you put him on? I know the hand he had, so perhaps thats why I'm giving that wide a range..
                Thats not really my point. Its just that 3betting the range you say is suicide. A while ago you said that reading RJ's posts on how to construct 3b ranges cos its only 10NL, and theres no need to work too hard on them, cos its better to get down the basics, and then you go and put some hands in a 3b range that should never ever be in there. You say you 3b that range oop. You need to learn what hands to 3b light if you want to 3b light. You should never really have the midpairs or QJs in there at the very least.
                Last edited by TommyGunne; 25-01-10, 13:01.
                Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                Comment


                  #9
                  Here's my reasoning behind the BB 3betting that I would do.

                  If I'm BB, and a MP bets and we have 150bbs effective stacks, I'm 3betting that range for value. I'm folding a tonne of it to 4bets, and the 3bet folds the MP a lot.

                  If the MP calls, I am cbetting oop almost every time, MP folds a lot immediately, I'm folding to a raise unless I've hit a set, have an overpair, or have a weighty draw.

                  If the MP calls my Cbet, I'm re-evaluating the turn, trying to narrow his range, C/F ing a lot without any strong hands, or hands with a draw. I'm C-betting dependant on the board, if an A or K hits the turn where there hasn't been one yet, etc.

                  On the river, if we get there, I'm more than likely destroyed, or happy to get it in, I rarely face a marginal decision here. So I bet with it, check without it.

                  I've been playing horribly exploitable poker at Rush, and its worked excellently so far.

                  With reads/stats, I don't think I'm playing the way I have above.

                  FWIW he hit his set on the river, with 22.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                    Here's my reasoning behind the BB 3betting that I would do.

                    If I'm BB, and a MP bets and we have 150bbs effective stacks, I'm 3betting that range for value. I'm folding a tonne of it to 4bets, and the 3bet folds the MP a lot.

                    You are 3betting QJs and 22 for value? Really? The 22 is fine as a 3b bluff if you feel like you can't call profitably, but I don't even what the QJs would be

                    If the MP calls, I am cbetting oop almost every time, MP folds a lot immediately, I'm folding to a raise unless I've hit a set, have an overpair, or have a weighty draw.

                    If the MP calls my Cbet, I'm re-evaluating the turn, trying to narrow his range, C/F ing a lot without any strong hands, or hands with a draw. I'm C-betting dependant on the board, if an A or K hits the turn where there hasn't been one yet, etc.

                    On the river, if we get there, I'm more than likely destroyed, or happy to get it in, I rarely face a marginal decision here. So I bet with it, check without it.

                    You never face a marginal decision with midpairs, QT+,KJ+,AJ+?

                    I've been playing horribly exploitable poker at Rush, and its worked excellently so far.

                    With reads/stats, I don't think I'm playing the way I have above.

                    FWIW he hit his set on the river, with 22.
                    Nothing wrong with 3betting small pairs if you feel like you can't call with them profitably. They're also ok hands to 5b bluff I think. You don't have blockers, but you don't have terrible equity vs aggro villains.

                    The real problem I'd have is that you suggest you indiscriminately 3bet a load of hands that are much better off in a flatting range. If, as you say, your SD matters so little, then there is absolutely no reason to 3bet so many hands that would be nice in your calling range. Using 72o instead of QJs results in greater profit.
                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You are 3betting QJs and 22 for value? Really? The 22 is fine as a 3b bluff if you feel like you can't call profitably, but I don't even what the QJs would be
                      I 3bet 22 for value as I'm far more confident of stacking someone in a 3bet pot when I hit my set. Is that reasoning wrong?
                      3betting QJs here is probably out of line, and I don't know if I would do this, but as I've said it I'll try my best to put my thoughts on it out here, and hopefully you'll spot the holes in my thinking.

                      Just as I would not be likely to stack off with 44 on a KQ8 board, as in, I'm really only stacking off when I hit my set, my thinking with the QJs or KQs would be that I'm only really stacking off when I hit two pair / pair + FD/ OESD and when I hit top pair, I can get some value out of the pot, by value betting thinner, recognising strength (AQ,KQ,AJ,KJ) and being able to give it up to strong plays.

                      You never face a marginal decision with midpairs, QT+,KJ+,AJ+?
                      This hand here is pretty much the only hand in 3k that I played like this and thought was marginal. I'm sure that wont always be the case, at all.

                      Appreciate the help TommyGunne, I definitely need it!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                        I 3bet 22 for value as I'm far more confident of stacking someone in a 3bet pot when I hit my set. Is that reasoning wrong?
                        3betting QJs here is probably out of line, and I don't know if I would do this, but as I've said it I'll try my best to put my thoughts on it out here, and hopefully you'll spot the holes in my thinking.

                        Just as I would not be likely to stack off with 44 on a KQ8 board, as in, I'm really only stacking off when I hit my set, my thinking with the QJs or KQs would be that I'm only really stacking off when I hit two pair / pair + FD/ OESD and when I hit top pair, I can get some value out of the pot, by value betting thinner, recognising strength (AQ,KQ,AJ,KJ) and being able to give it up to strong plays.



                        This hand here is pretty much the only hand in 3k that I played like this and thought was marginal. I'm sure that wont always be the case, at all.

                        Appreciate the help TommyGunne, I definitely need it!
                        With that reasoning, you could also 3b 72o for value, cos you'll be much more confident of getting your stack in when you flop trips. So 3betting 22 is a bluff. It certainly doesn't have an equity edge over your opponents calling range. Its just a bluff that you can't even bluff with much, cos you never pick up any extra equity. That being said, its not a bad hand to 3b bluff with if you can't call it profitably, whereas QJs is never gonna be a good hand to 3b bluff, cos if they're loose enough that you wanna 3b them light, you can probably call QJs and QJs play pretty damn good against an LP open range, and real bad when your 3b is called.
                        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                          With that reasoning, you could also 3b 72o for value, cos you'll be much more confident of getting your stack in when you flop trips. So 3betting 22 is a bluff. It certainly doesn't have an equity edge over your opponents calling range. Its just a bluff that you can't even bluff with much, cos you never pick up any extra equity. That being said, its not a bad hand to 3b bluff with if you can't call it profitably, whereas QJs is never gonna be a good hand to 3b bluff, cos if they're loose enough that you wanna 3b them light, you can probably call QJs and QJs play pretty damn good against an LP open range, and real bad when your 3b is called.
                          nutshell
                          3bet with hands with good equity vs a 3bet calling range = value
                          3bet with hands with bad equity vs a 3bet calling range = bluff (I'm not sure if you're advocating this, or using it to show that I shouldn't be doing it?)
                          Fold in between up to a point when you should be calling vs loose opener (villain dependant cutoff point).

                          Should I also flat call with JJ+ sometimes?

                          I'm trying to get out of the "auto poker" that I was playing for last year or so, and thats why I posted this hand tbh.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Emmet, watch Redjokers 3betting video.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by RoadSweeper View Post
                              Emmet, watch Redjokers 3betting video.
                              definitely will

                              After my last exam that is..

                              Comment


                                #16
                                You played it fine, but I would fold pre. Never played rush poker though.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                  You played it fine, but I would fold pre.
                                  this

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Few quick questions for the guys who have played rush poker.

                                    How many hands p/h are you roughly getting in 1 tabling rush poker ?

                                    How many tables do you think it would be possible to comfortably play ?

                                    Opr

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      280 per hour 1 tabling no problem.

                                      Max per limit is 4 tables, I struggle with 2, but don't have a decent monitor. I would compare 1 rush table to 4 normals.

                                      The problem with multitabling it, is that you only have 8seconds per decision unless you hit time.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Its really rams home the point about automated software. I am sure people have already realised that by using an automated pre-flop program they could play a sick amount of hands.

                                        Opr

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          2 minute search and bingo. FT complaint program.



                                          People using this will have a field day on this rush poker thing.

                                          Opr

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Definitely fold pre. Calling 3bets with that hand is for sure -EV.

                                            Hand is played fine post-flop but pre is a big leak.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                              Definitely fold pre. Calling 3bets with that hand is for sure -EV.

                                              Hand is played fine post-flop but pre is a big leak.
                                              While personally I currently prefer a 4bet in this type of game, I don't see this as an automatic fold.

                                              4bet > call > fold.

                                              People are currently 3betting very light from the blinds in these games as many late position raises are considered stealing the blinds. Therefore we can 4bet a lot of hands to take them down preflop.

                                              By calling, we have position for the rest of the hand with a decent Ace that's faring pretty well against a perceived 3betting range.

                                              I'd only fold if I didn't like playing poker, and even then I'd just 4bet.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by AdMMM View Post
                                                While personally I currently prefer a 4bet in this type of game, I don't see this as an automatic fold.

                                                4bet > call > fold.

                                                People are currently 3betting very light from the blinds in these games as many late position raises are considered stealing the blinds. Therefore we can 4bet a lot of hands to take them down preflop.

                                                By calling, we have position for the rest of the hand with a decent Ace that's faring pretty well against a perceived 3betting range.

                                                I'd only fold if I didn't like playing poker, and even then I'd just 4bet.
                                                Yeah I meant to add I don't mind a 4bet either. Laziness ftw. People are defo becoming more aggro from the blinds to late position raises even at smaller stakes now.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I would 4bet a huge % of the time given stack sizes.

                                                  Opr

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Opr View Post
                                                    I would 4bet a huge % of the time given stack sizes.

                                                    Opr
                                                    4bet fold to a shove?

                                                    Shove A high flop if called? Call a shove?

                                                    Shove J high flop if called? Call a shove?

                                                    Obviously depending on villains actions.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      My hand is not good enough to call with. The deeper you get the less you should be flatting hands that make top pair stuff like AJo. You should be looking for hands that have the abilty to make much stronger type hands.

                                                      4bet folding AJ with 100bb's becomes close due to our equity against his 5bet shoving range. Its becomes even closer depending on his abilty to 5bet shove light. This doesn't matter when we are deeper. It also tightens up his abilty to 5bet bluff as the risk/reward ratio is alot worse.

                                                      People shouldn't really be calling too many 4bets OOP and will almost always 5bet or fold. (Playing 4bet pots deep is a whole other topic.)

                                                      Card removal means he has less combo's of JJ,AA

                                                      The dynamic of CO versus BB means he has a fair amount of air in his range. I also think he will be 3betting loads of stuff he shouldn't be that he will have to fold to a 4bet.

                                                      I think its a pretty amazing spot to be 4betting.

                                                      Opr
                                                      Last edited by Opr; 26-01-10, 00:09.

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