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    Tricky spot

    12 Live.

    I'm not that interested in the decisions up to the river, debate away if you like though. I'd been up for 24 hours and didn't feel like playing that aggressively.

    The Villain of the hand has aprox 250 at the start of the hand. All other stacks are over 500

    Two players limp, one is a good player (not villain) I've been beating up a bit. The last hand I played against him I bet every street including an overbet on the river with a backdoor flush (he called). He was clearly annoyed at me after this hand.

    I limp on the button with TJo.

    Villain makes it 12 from SB. Good player calls as do I.

    The flop is 892, two clubs. We all check.

    The turn is the 3 of clubs. We all check.

    The river is a 7. Check, bet 25. I consider raising but decide to just call. 70/fold is something I'd usually do but I thought about it and considered given the history I'd rather not let myself be bluffed, and I thought it was pretty unlikely anything but 777 or a worse straight calls. Writing this now I think I prefer a small raise. Anyway, I call.

    Villain shoves for roughly 250. Other players both fold. I have the nut straight, but lose to all flushes.

    Villain seems good, but I've only seen him play for about 20 mins. On his first hand he called my check raise on a 66Q board and raised my lead on an Ace turn, then showed threes. I showed 9J. I considered this good play rather than spew, I wasn't really representing much. He has the appearance and demeanor of a good poker player, but obviously I don't know much about him.

    Call or fold?

    #2
    I find it very hard to see villain not betting at some point in the hand if he has two clubs, so I call pretty quickly

    Comment


      #3
      From the villains point of view it's very hard for you to have a flush here surely? Especially since he seen you play somewhat aggressively earlier. no idea how most people play here but if I bonked the flush in your spot id be inclined to bet the turn.

      Also if we are in the villains spot do we really check 3 times? No cbet, no turn stab and no value bet on the river. I think you have to call anyway. A set would be much closer

      Comment


        #4
        Seems like a bad price

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by 8611 View Post
          I find it very hard to see villain not betting at some point in the hand if he has two clubs, so I call pretty quickly
          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post

          Also if we are in the villains spot do we really check 3 times? No cbet, no turn stab and no value bet on the river. I think you have to call anyway. A set would be much closer
          His play fits Ak/Q clubs exactly. He raises pre, whiffs a check raise all in on the flop. Gets there on the turn and checks. Then on the river a bet is normal, but a check is better.

          Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
          Seems like a bad price
          Yeah thats one of the reasons to fold. He is betting 250 to win about 100

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
            His play fits Ak/Q clubs exactly. He raises pre, whiffs a check raise all in on the flop. Gets there on the turn and checks. Then on the river a bet is normal, but a check is better.



            Yeah thats one of the reasons to fold. He is betting 250 to win about 100
            It's the nuts or a bluff, even if he bluffs half the time you still can't call, sigh fold, all IMHO.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
              His play fits Ak/Q clubs exactly. He raises pre, whiffs a check raise all in on the flop. Gets there on the turn and checks. Then on the river a bet is normal, but a check is better.
              Maybe I'm missing some kind of cash game dynamic but this would seem to me to be a bizarre and unprofitable line to take with AK / Q clubs.

              He misses a chance to just take the pot down with a bet or bloat it with the nut draw on the flop. He then turns the nuts and misses the perfect chance to get some value by leading at the pot when his hand is completely disguised and the bet would look like he's just trying to take it down as no one else has shown strength. And then he doesn't bother betting the river either when its hardly a card that the other two players are necessarily likely to bet? More often than not this line gets him nothing post flop, not a cent extra for his nut flush.

              And then the betting comes back round to him when its patently obvious that you don't have the flush? I mean his line looks a lot more like 10J or 56 than the nuts. It also includes lots of random spazs, two pair hands and sets.

              The only reason you're considering folding is becasue he's check raised all in on the river. This is live poker and he's an unknown to you who's been at the table 20 minutes. I mean you don't know him from Adam, and if nothing else the hand with you shows he's really wililng to take risks. The average live player is bad and this kind of spaz bluff move is a big part of his repertoire. I call.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                Maybe I'm missing some kind of cash game dynamic but this would seem to me to be a bizarre and unprofitable line to take with AK / Q clubs.

                He misses a chance to just take the pot down with a bet or bloat it with the nut draw on the flop. He then turns the nuts and misses the perfect chance to get some value by leading at the pot when his hand is completely disguised and the bet would look like he's just trying to take it down as no one else has shown strength. And then he doesn't bother betting the river either when its hardly a card that the other two players are necessarily likely to bet? More often than not this line gets him nothing post flop, not a cent extra for his nut flush.

                And then the betting comes back round to him when its patently obvious that you don't have the flush? I mean his line looks a lot more like 10J or 56 than the nuts. It also includes lots of random spazs, two pair hands and sets.

                The only reason you're considering folding is becasue he's check raised all in on the river. This is live poker and he's an unknown to you who's been at the table 20 minutes. I mean you don't know him from Adam, and if nothing else the hand with you shows he's really wililng to take risks. The average live player is bad and this kind of spaz bluff move is a big part of his repertoire. I call.
                I don't agree with almost any of this.

                CR on the flop is standard. He has the perfect stack for it. He could also go bet, shove but that can end up being awkward. If he check raises he has a better chance of getting some pairs to fold.

                On the turn he can bet or check, checking disguises his hand. Either option is ok.

                On the river most players will bet, but I think a check is actually better. This particular option is quite complicated but I think a check is slightly better - it depends on a lot of variables.

                This players is clearly not an average live player, I've already mentioned that. In any case most players will go their entire lives without ever check raise bluffing the river all in (esp in a multiway pot)

                One point that I agree with is that its unlikely I have a flush. I did dwell before calling the 25, I was considering raising but that could equally be interpreted as considering folding. However, and this is a big however, the player who bet 25 can have a flush more easily than me, and the villain has to consider this player as well, he isn't just bluffing me.

                If he is bluffing here he pretty much has to have the Ac in his hand.

                56 isn't possible IMO. He'd have to have raised pre with it from the blinds, never attempted to take the pot down, and then overbet shoved with the idiot end of a straight on a three flush board. Not one street of his actions would lead me to think he has 56

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by DaKlowen View Post
                  It's the nuts or a bluff, even if he bluffs half the time you still can't call, sigh fold, all IMHO.
                  If he is bluffing half the time, how could calling be unprofitable?
                  Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                  Maybe I'm missing some kind of cash game dynamic but this would seem to me to be a bizarre and unprofitable line to take with AK / Q clubs.
                  Getting people to quickly call a massive over bet without much thought is what makes that line profitable. It's probably not how he planned the flop and turn to play out but once its been checked to the river he has to keep going with it.

                  And then the betting comes back round to him when its patently obvious that you don't have the flush? I mean his line looks a lot more like 10J or 56 than the nuts. It also includes lots of random spazs, two pair hands and sets.
                  His line makes absolutely no sense with 56.
                  It looks like he has the nuts, or he knows that nobody else has the nuts.

                  He needs to be bluffing a lot to make a call profitable.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                    If he is bluffing half the time, how could calling be unprofitable?
                    Meh 40%

                    Comment


                      #11
                      As desribed the player seems a bit needy, ie wants people to acknowledge him as a "good", it sounds like unbelievable spew with the 33 and even if it wasnt there is no justification for randomly showing his hand and giving away so much information.

                      People dont check raise bluff live, EVER. I really cant see this being a bluff. If this is a house game I think that dynamic changes a little. He could have, I guess noticed your dwell and be going bananas with the bare ace figuring its a really tough call for you, but its not like the original better should be parrticularly light here anyway so thats risky biscuits to win so little betting so much (the only thing that would even make me humour calling is the 33 hand which suggest he has a few ego lines in his arsenal)

                      Crap price and rarely a bluff imo, hatetehfolding4lifeobv but looks like you really should.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        easy fold

                        Comment


                          #13
                          he's relatively short stacked,
                          he's pissed at you,
                          it's live,
                          looks a good spot to squeeze,
                          and your hand is underrepped and it's possible he's shoving light thinking he has the best hand with a set or something.

                          call

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by bops View Post
                            he's relatively short stacked,
                            he's pissed at you,
                            it's live,
                            looks a good spot to squeeze,
                            and your hand is underrepped and it's possible he's shoving light thinking he has the best hand with a set or something.

                            call
                            He bought in for 100bbs. He has more than that now.

                            I don't think he is pissed at me. My hand is under repped though.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              it's 250 to win 350 and I think he turns up with the second best hand a lot here. I don't think his hand is polarised with the overbet shove, it's very possible he has a set here and thinks it's good and can be called by worse, (he's done a bit of advertising with the 33 hand)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                Yeah thats one of the reasons to fold. He is betting 250 to win about 100
                                It's still going to be profitable if it folds out anything 2P and worse. If villain is good enough to reason that out to any degree, given the fact that someone has a flush here virtually never, it makes it a pretty standard call. In any case if we're contemplating folding JT a bluff-shove is printing money all day.

                                Incidentally, sizing-wise, shoving for value vs such weak ranges doesn't make much sense so I'd weight him more towards bluffs than if he made it 125 or something. That coupled with line all streets is just far too fishy for me to ever find a fold.
                                "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                Comment

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