Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Dealer mucked hand by accident

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #61
    From a playing live perspective, i'm almost completely agreeing with Westlife here. I don't agree about it not being possible to protect your cards at all. I've never used a card protector in my life, but i've always managed to keep my cards protected at all times when it seats 1 or 9/10. Keep your hands on your cards if you have not chips to do it.

    As for putting your chips in the centre when all in, this is something i've been told and i've heard more times than i can remember. If i declare allin from the button, and the SB just looks up while not really paying attention and says 'call' meaning to complete to the BB, should he be forced to pay the allin because he didn't see any chips in the middle? 905 of dealers have asked the allin player to move his chips into the centre when they have declared an allin.

    The procedure/rule should be, IMO

    If a player announces 'Allin', the dealer should repeat 'player is allin' and then the player should push his chips, or at least all his high denom chips into the centre. That way, it's clear to the table what action has happened.

    Also, lol at Westlife ever having enough chips to warrant using both hands to push them forward. Just being silly now!

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by westlife View Post
      So, if every dealer insists that it must be done then what is the difference between a rule and procedure?
      procedures dictate actions for the staff for unity in the way it is dealt, such as bringing chips into the pots, or displaying the winning.

      Rules is rules.

      Originally posted by westlife View Post
      Can I refuse to put the chips in the middle without incuring a warning/ penalty?
      That would be up to the TD at the time, but in general if a floorman is willing to penelise a player for this then they should be worrying about other more important things.

      Originally posted by westlife View Post
      How can I get you fired?
      You can't. I can do a fair enough job of that without assistance
      But, the assumption that I work for people you know, and that they would not be happy about me posting this information was clear enough.

      Originally posted by westlife View Post
      Wow, awaiting the mentioned TD's response to this. Having a dealer employed at the festivals who does not know this is a rule at every game in Ireland is a poor reflection on your ability/attention to the basics at dealer meetings.
      As it happens I do work for these guys sometimes, And I'd like to think that they know me well enough to trust that I know the rules.

      And out of the two of us, I did not have to make a phone call to find out if I was correct.

      anyway, it was fun while it lasted, im off to buy a car to see if I can lose they keys easy enough.
      Last edited by thegreatiam; 01-02-13, 17:34.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
        procedures dictate actions for the staff for unity in the way it is dealt, such as bringing chips into the pots, or displaying the winning.

        Rules is rules.


        That would be up to the TD at the time, but in general if a floorman is willing to penelise a player for this then they should be worrying about other more important things.



        You can't. I can do a fair enough job of that without assistance
        But, the assumption that I work for people you know, and that they would not be happy about me posting this information was clear enough.


        As it happens I do work for these guys sometimes, And I'd like to think that they know me well enough to trust that I know the rules.

        And out of the two of us, I did not have to make a phone call to find out if I was correct.

        anyway, it was fun while it lasted, im off to buy a car to see if I can lose they keys easy enough.
        Any chance you can take this to PM?

        Comment


          #64
          There are only 4 TD's in Ireland that are actually qualified
          to answer the questions asked in this thread, and none have
          replied yet.
          Anything else if just waffle.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
            There are only 4 TD's in Ireland that are actually qualified
            to answer the questions asked in this thread, and none have
            replied yet.
            Anything else if just waffle.
            one is working
            one is asleep
            one is pissed out of his brain
            one is on a beach at some exotic location
            D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
              There are only 4 TD's in Ireland that are actually qualified
              to answer the questions asked in this thread, and none have
              replied yet.
              Anything else if just waffle.
              One of the best, if not the best seems to agree with the following:


              Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
              Yes, you are only responsible for the action, if no-one has called before the error is noted then you should only lose the blind.

              since you say the BB calls and then you notice your cards are gone then all you chips stay in the middle. (up to what the BB stack is, if he covers you youre out.)



              This situation is your fault, it is always the players responsibility to protect your cards and chips. Yes the dealer has screwed up, but that wouldn't have happened if you protected your cards sufficiently. The blame lies solely with the player. (as an aside, Ill come down hard on a dealer away from the table but that is not the concern of players).




              You were called before the mistake was noted, you should lose your whole stack.




              again, its your mistake, you weren't protecting your cards and you lost them.

              as far as making it a misdeal, this is simply ridiculous thinking. The amount of ways that rule could be exploited is uncountable. This gives so many extra outs to people who want to steal chips on a final table, and then they feign ignorance and claim the dealer mucked their cards to get a miss deal.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                One of the best, if not the best seems to agree with the following:

                Why would you ask this question about that rule? Nobody is doubting what the rule is, as it stands. The onus is on every player to ensure that when a dealer makes a mistake and takes your cards in, that it is your fault. My initial post was how unfair it is that someone else's error hurts you!

                My confusion is when a self proclaimed poker professional was telling me that the rule is NOT in place that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out on announcement!

                Please read more carefully!
                D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                  One of the best, if not the best seems to agree with the following:
                  Who you talkin bout willis .

                  Mori HEI , sounds like a monaghan name HEI

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                    Who you talkin bout willis .

                    Mori HEI , sounds like a monaghan name HEI
                    Japanese ya big Thick!

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                      Who you talkin bout willis .

                      Mori HEI , sounds like a monaghan name HEI
                      Dave O'Neill
                      D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by westlife View Post
                        Dave O'Neill
                        He's not a TD

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                          He's not a TD
                          Depends whether or not TD stands for Total Dickhead

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                            Why would you ask this question about that rule? Nobody is doubting what the rule is, as it stands. The onus is on every player to ensure that when a dealer makes a mistake and takes your cards in, that it is your fault. My initial post was how unfair it is that someone else's error hurts you!
                            because its not someone else's error, its your error. You did not protect them, therefore it's your error.

                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                            My confusion is when a self proclaimed poker professional was telling me that the rule is NOT in place that when verbally declaring all in you must put the High denoms or full stack out on announcement!

                            Please read more carefully!
                            because the rule is verbal is binding,
                            once you have said all you are all in regardless what you do with your chips
                            everything else is just good manners

                            and im getting seriously bored with this conversation.

                            and I just bough my first car, so i am counting down the minutes til i lose my keys for the first time, because by your logic, ill be able to blame anyone else rather than accept responsibility myself.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                              because its not someone else's error, its your error. You did not protect them, therefore it's your error.



                              because the rule is verbal is binding,
                              once you have said all you are all in regardless what you do with your chips
                              everything else is just good manners

                              and im getting seriously bored with this conversation.

                              and I just bough my first car, so i am counting down the minutes til i lose my keys for the first time, because by your logic, ill be able to blame anyone else rather than accept responsibility myself.
                              according to you, Its not someone else's error, in the first place, that has you (the player who's hand has been mucked) in this position???? And you believe that? lol..... classic..... WP.......

                              So, if your going out in your new car, and you pay a designated driver to:
                              • drive you home
                              • lock up your car
                              • leave the keys in your house.

                              If you find that your car is gone in the morning because it transpired that the paid designated driver had brought you home, left the car doors open and the keys in the ignition ......... but, according to your line of thought, this is not the designated drivers fault that your car is gone....... it's yours, because you did not sit in the car all night to protect it! CORRECT?
                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post


                                because the rule is verbal is binding,
                                once you have said all you are all in regardless what you do with your chips
                                everything else is just good manners

                                and im getting seriously bored with this conversation.
                                So, it is not compulsory to put your chips forward after announcing all in...it's only "good manners" ??
                                Maybe Morihei could get "One of the best, if not the best" to verify that, when a player is all in,that it is only good manners, not compulsory, to put chips forward... its just to be nice to the rest of the table.

                                Boredom rectifier: go have a spin in your new car and we can wait for the official TD's to post at some stage....I have! (tried too)
                                D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  You dont half spout some shite

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                    You dont half spout some shite
                                    Famous for it!
                                    D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                      Maybe Morihei could get "One of the best, if not the best" to verify that, when a player is all in,that it is only good manners, not compulsory, to put chips forward... its just to be nice to the rest of the table.
                                      Hmm... definitely needs discussing.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by westlife View Post

                                        So, if your going out in your new car, and you pay a designated driver to:
                                        • drive you home
                                        • lock up your car
                                        • leave the keys in your house.

                                        If you find that your car is gone in the morning because it transpired that the paid designated driver had brought you home, left the car doors open and the keys in the ignition ......... but, according to your line of thought, this is not the designated drivers fault that your car is gone....... it's yours, because you did not sit in the car all night to protect it! CORRECT?
                                        No. Again you are completely misunderstanding the rule. If you give your keys to someone else then you are not protecting them.

                                        In this situation you are protecting your license. Which, if you did not drink drive, you will still have. Even tho your car is gone. To protect you car then you dont let someone else drive it, park it up and lock it. If your car is truly that important to you you would never let someone else behind the wheel. You would also not bring it out drinking and if you did then you would check that it is locked before passing out.

                                        If you give your cards to someone else during a hand and they end up in the muck. Yes it is your fault.

                                        If you have protected your hand. Then a dealer will not be able to muck it. Do not let the cards go until you want to fold. If you are not holding them then the dealer can accidentally kill them. If you have hold of them then they need to pry them from you hand. Besides. Ive seen you play. And generally you do keep your cards in your hand. If you and I can manage this seeming easy task and never let our cards get mucked. Then so can others.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                          No. Again you are completely misunderstanding the rule.
                                          No, AGAIN, you are correcting me, like Morihei, to an issue that I have NEVER questioned. I fully understand, and always have in all my posts, that the rule is: the onus is on every player to ensure that a dealer, whilst your hand is still in play, is not physically allowed, by you, to take your cards from you and place them in the muck. If they do, then the rule states, that it is your fault. My initial post was how IMO that it is an unfair scenario that someone else's initial error hurts you. I have never questioned the rule is in place.... I have questioned the fairness of it!
                                          The only other point I have questioned is when you said it is not mandatory to move your high denoms, or entire stack to the centre after announcing "all in"
                                          DO YOU FINALLY COMPREHEND THIS! Please tell me you do.
                                          D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                          Comment


                                            #81
                                            Lads, this is getting a bit tedious. Just agree to disagree

                                            Comment


                                              #82
                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                              Lads, this is getting a bit tedious. Just agree to disagree
                                              FY TONY, your snide "never had enough chips" remark is still hurting!
                                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

                                              Comment


                                                #83
                                                Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                FY TONY, your snide "never had enough chips" remark is still hurting!


                                                I know exactly what you're trying to say in your posts and agree with it, but it's not getting anywhere. If every TD in the world went exactly by the book and never used their cop on, or done what was best for the interest of the game, then poker could get really poxy.

                                                Verbal declaration stands, and the movement of the chips is so the whole table can see what's going on. We both know from previous events, that some dealers don't announce allin after you announce it, so if we don't move chips into the centre then someone else if going to get burnt. I rarely speak at the table and let my chips do the talking, so if moving allin, i just push my chips forward and don't say anything. We should just live with a combo of both imo

                                                Comment


                                                  #84
                                                  Just checked back into this thread, and I should have mentioned originally that I did have a chip over my cards, but when I pushed my chips in I'm not sure if it was still there or not. I also was in position 5 or 6 so I wasn't even next to the dealer and it happened so fast that I didn't notice at first.....

                                                  Just cashed at the Deepstack at the Regency so happy days for now.....

                                                  Comment


                                                    #85
                                                    If I announce raise 2k from utg, do I not have to put chips in?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #86
                                                      Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                      If I announce raise 2k from utg, do I not have to put chips in?
                                                      now what do you think

                                                      Comment


                                                        #87
                                                        Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                        If I announce raise 2k from utg, do I not have to put chips in?
                                                        Better off just throwing your cards in Damo

                                                        Comment


                                                          #88
                                                          Originally posted by NoHomeJerome View Post
                                                          now what do you think
                                                          Well if i went by the info given here about not having to move my chips after i announce all in , then the same should apply if i announce 2k from utg .

                                                          Comment


                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                            No, AGAIN, you are correcting me, like Morihei, to an issue that I have NEVER questioned. I fully understand, and always have in all my posts,
                                                            We believe that you misunderstand because the examples you give have no association or comparison to the situation that we can only think that you do not fully get the situation.
                                                            If thats not the case then stop trying to give pointless examples to try and score cheap points

                                                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                            that the rule is: the onus is on every player to ensure that a dealer, whilst your hand is still in play, is not physically allowed, by you, to take your cards from you and place them in the muck. If they do, then the rule states, that it is your fault. My initial post was how IMO that it is an unfair scenario that someone else's initial error hurts you. I have never questioned the rule is in place.... I have questioned the fairness of it!
                                                            That is correct. Replace the word allowed with able and you're 100% correct. If you do not release your cards then the dealer can not muck them. If you did release them then they weren't protected sufficiently
                                                            The only other point I have questioned is when you said it is not mandatory to move your high denoms, or entire stack to the centre after announcing "all in"

                                                            Originally posted by westlife View Post
                                                            DO YOU FINALLY COMPREHEND THIS! Please tell me you do.
                                                            I've never had a problem with it. I am capable of protecting my cards and never feel the need to blame others for my inattentiveness. But I'm
                                                            glad to see you're finally coming round
                                                            Last edited by thegreatiam; 04-02-13, 09:28.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #90
                                                              Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                              If I announce raise 2k from utg, do I not have to put chips in?
                                                              At your leisure.
                                                              you can wait till everyone folds and not put them in at all.
                                                              or you can do so as the action goes round. most likely the dealer will ask you to put them in before this. but as verbal is binding they will need to go in eventually if you are requested to.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #91
                                                                Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                At your leisure.
                                                                you can wait till everyone folds and not put them in at all.
                                                                or you can do so as the action goes round. most likely the dealer will ask you to put them in before this. but as verbal is binding they will need to go in eventually if you are requested to.
                                                                Just on this in the Fitz they make you put out your chips in (well made me at least) even when everyone else had folded their cards

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #92
                                                                  Originally posted by kaiser soze View Post
                                                                  Get a card protector place it on top of ur cards after u look at them, then shit like this does not happen to u.
                                                                  I'm at my desk and have a pen tray in front of me where I keep my card markers. I am ashamed to say I counted sixteen card markers in it. It's up to the player if he wants to risk his cards getting mucked. It happens a lot in seats one and nine.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #93
                                                                    Originally posted by Donkathon View Post
                                                                    Just on this in the Fitz they make you put out your chips in (well made me at least) even when everyone else had folded their cards

                                                                    that's hilarious.

                                                                    talk about pointless.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #94
                                                                      Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                      At your leisure.
                                                                      you can wait till everyone folds and not put them in at all.

                                                                      or you can do so as the action goes round. most likely the dealer will ask you to put them in before this. but as verbal is binding they will need to go in eventually if you are requested to.
                                                                      I call BULLSHIT

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #95
                                                                        Originally posted by thegreatiam View Post
                                                                        At your leisure.
                                                                        you can wait till everyone folds and not put them in at all.
                                                                        or you can do so as the action goes round. most likely the dealer will ask you to put them in before this. but as verbal is binding they will need to go in eventually if you are requested to.
                                                                        I have never heard anything more ridiculous ( poker related) in my life
                                                                        Genuinely shocked at this.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #96
                                                                          Originally posted by premierstone View Post
                                                                          I call BULLSHIT
                                                                          Originally posted by DAMO72 View Post
                                                                          I have never heard anything more ridiculous ( poker related) in my life
                                                                          Genuinely shocked at this.
                                                                          Well its true. You dont have to put your money in exactly when you make a verbal bet. it can go in when ever you place it in.
                                                                          Youre bound to the bet tho, the money will have to go in eventually.


                                                                          But I think you're making mountains out of molehills here.

                                                                          If you make a bet, and for whatever reason you dont put the chips in. (lets pretend youre eating something)
                                                                          You say, 'I raise 2k'

                                                                          Now, what do you think is going to happen... are we going to halt the progress of the game, force everyone to wait for you to put your plate down and put the chips in before the next guy acts? or is the next guy going to just get on with it.

                                                                          The dealer is going to follow the action around the table, as people call or fold. and when the action gets back to you he's going to say 'get your chips in'

                                                                          if you don't ( lets say youve got gravy all over your fingers) then he will simply take the 2k and put it in the pot.

                                                                          What do you think is going to happen here? are you going to refuse to put the chips in? then the dealer will just take them. Are you going to call the floor? the dealer is going to say you bet 2k, and he helped you put your chips in.

                                                                          Lets say no one calls you. each person folds while you sit there with a big gravy covered grin on your face. Why put the chips in now? the hand is over as soon as the last guy folds, putting your 2k in now is 100% pointless. you made the bet of 2k, no one wanted any of it so hand over, the dealer will just pass you the blinds and take your cards while you wallow in gravy goodness. the chips going in at this stage is moot, and not a requirement.

                                                                          Seriously, youre all overreacting here over something which occurs on every poker table countless times a day.

                                                                          as long as the bet is verbalised, it does not matter when the chips go in. If the chips go in and there is no verbal bet that is also perfectly acceptable.

                                                                          If the dealer is told to ask players to put their chips in then that is also fine.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #97
                                                                            Your points are great and all that, but what happens if the gravy guy raises 2k, and the dealer (like about 25% of dealers) just carries on around the table until seat 4 looks up after hearing no action and seeing no chips in play and says 'raise' or 'i'll call' and is then shocked to see that gravy guys 20x raise to 2k is in play. He only wanted to raise to 300 or call the 100 but is now faced with a minraise to 3.9k or calling the 2k from his 5k stack.

                                                                            1) The verbal declaration is fine
                                                                            2) No chips were put in the middle
                                                                            3) The dealer never repeated the raise or made him put chips in the middle

                                                                            So now, the innocent guy that didn't happen to hear the gravy guy whisper his bet (like the 4 other guys at his end of the table) is now being forced to play for his stack after travelling from Derry to Cork for a €500 event when all he wanted to do was steal the blinds with J8o

                                                                            You can look at it both ways, but you need to put your chips in the middle when you make a bet, or else your incompetence can fuck up someone else at the table

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #98
                                                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                              Your points are great and all that, but what happens if the gravy guy raises 2k, and the dealer (like about 25% of dealers) just carries on around the table until seat 4 looks up after hearing no action and seeing no chips in play and says 'raise' or 'i'll call' and is then shocked to see that gravy guys 20x raise to 2k is in play. He only wanted to raise to 300 or call the 100 but is now faced with a minraise to 3.9k or calling the 2k from his 5k stack.

                                                                              1) The verbal declaration is fine
                                                                              2) No chips were put in the middle
                                                                              3) The dealer never repeated the raise or made him put chips in the middle

                                                                              So now, the innocent guy that didn't happen to hear the gravy guy whisper his bet (like the 4 other guys at his end of the table) is now being forced to play for his stack after travelling from Derry to Cork for a €500 event when all he wanted to do was steal the blinds with J8o

                                                                              You can look at it both ways, but you need to put your chips in the middle when you make a bet, or else your incompetence can fuck up someone else at the table
                                                                              This is another thread question, but sure.

                                                                              All players are expected to pay attention to the action, and listen out for the actions. if the player has said raise then he should have been listening.

                                                                              If the dealer hasn't clarified the action by repeating the player then that is a substandard dealer.

                                                                              It is a sorry situation but not every dealer is up to speed. Some have received minimal training. and some have poor attitudes. But responsible dealers with proper training make it easier for everybody. If you have a poor dealer on your table, then you are going to have to work harder to follow the action and protect your interest.

                                                                              -

                                                                              unfortunately, as players, you have to tolerate bad dealer to some extent. But you can tell the floor that a dealer is not dealing as they should. The floor can tell the dealer to deal correctly and then tell the organisor if they do not. The organisor can decide to dismiss that dealer, retrain them or do nothing. If a link in that chain breaks down then as a player you can complain with your wallet and choose to boycot the organisor until they repair that chain.

                                                                              If im dealing, i make sure to deal to correct procedure, if im floor I watch dealers and players to see if the game is correctly dealt. If players tell me when they see problems then I do what I can to repair them. I try to report up to my employers as much as I can.
                                                                              I cannot speak for anyone else working in the industry as to what they do, but Im sure if organisors are and floorstaff are made aware of issues then they will do what they can to repair them.

                                                                              But if players aren't reporting the things like this we dont see, then it will persist.


                                                                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                              and the dealer (like about 25% of dealers)
                                                                              Not in my experience. Sure uk and ireland have a higher %, but that is because there are minimal training facilities for poker dealers here.

                                                                              A lot of people are taught 2nd had, by people who learned 2nd hand. Even the casinos in the UK have in comparison a very poor method of training,
                                                                              in major casinos there I have been given 20+ dealers and told I have a week to train them to deal a tourney. And ill have them an hour a day. (if I was lucky) This is because the 'house' simply want a dealer to push cards around the table. they dont want to invest in an extensive training programme to teach them correctly) This then self perpetuates as those dealers will (in a few months) be training the next wave of dealers.

                                                                              Austria, most parts of europe, austrailia and the US then this % is a lot less, as high quality poker training schools are more widespread.
                                                                              The Austrian dealers usually take a 12 week course. Americans, it depends on the course but usually between 6-10 weeks. dealers often have to pay $1000 plus for this.

                                                                              So their standards tend to be higher, While it is not guaranteed.

                                                                              But if the infrastructure is not there then dealers here are given short shrift. most are trained in a matter of days, and given the belief that this is sufficient as the person who trained them was trained like that. Many will learn on the job, piking up procedures and rulings as they go.

                                                                              So until there is a high standard and uniform system for training and retraining floor staff and dealers then mistakes will be commonplace.

                                                                              Maybe people like JP/Nick now they have the facility can introduce a "real" dealing school. They have the contacts, many of the Austrian/American/Finish floor they have can certainly assist in training and writing dealer and floor manuals.

                                                                              If something like that ever occurred, and 100% of the dealers and floor we retrained to a high standard then mistakes like those you discussed would be brought to a minimum.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #99
                                                                                Yep, i agree with everything in the above post. There's a lot of sub-standard dealers doing the rounds. There's a few dealers that don't follow the action or announce bets, but rather stare into space and chew gum. I've asked for dealers to be replaced on more than 1 occasion.

                                                                                It does pose the question tho (which is Westlife's main point) that maybe it was one of these poor dealers that was at fault and now a player is being punished severely. Yes there are rules, procedures and protocols but not every player or dealer is going to be able to to fulfil the requirements. Most of us know what we should be doing and how we should do it, but we can't legislate for the people that don't know. Regimentally (sp?) sticking to every rule isn't going to solve any problems. Don't most Rules List end with something along the lines of 'The TD may make a decision he feels is in the best interest of the game'. We should always allow for some wiggle rule for occurrences like this that arise very infrequently and make a decision that won't be the same every time it happens, because there could be other factors in play next time.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                  Yep, i agree with everything in the above post. There's a lot of sub-standard dealers doing the rounds. There's a few dealers that don't follow the action or announce bets, but rather stare into space and chew gum. I've asked for dealers to be replaced on more than 1 occasion.

                                                                                  It does pose the question tho (which is Westlife's main point) that maybe it was one of these poor dealers that was at fault and now a player is being punished severely. Yes there are rules, procedures and protocols but not every player or dealer is going to be able to to fulfil the requirements. Most of us know what we should be doing and how we should do it, but we can't legislate for the people that don't know. Regimentally (sp?) sticking to every rule isn't going to solve any problems. Don't most Rules List end with something along the lines of 'The TD may make a decision he feels is in the best interest of the game'. We should always allow for some wiggle rule for occurrences like this that arise very infrequently and make a decision that won't be the same every time it happens, because there could be other factors in play next time.
                                                                                  Yes, like I said, if you have a bad dealer then it is even more important that you take extra care to protect yourself to prevent situations like accidental mucks and not following the action.

                                                                                  I think it is more than reasonable to expect that people are careful with their investments. And the rules are common knowledge enough and easily available to everyone. New players can be quickly brought up to speed (again good dealers will do this, bad ones won't)

                                                                                  Phil's point is that you are being punished because the dealer fucked up. You are not. you simply we're inattentive to something and lost place of it. It just happened to be the most valuable thing on you at the time, same as losing your wallet or keys, Sorry, its no-one fault but you lost your wallet and you cant get it back.

                                                                                  By allowing you to retrieve the cards from the muck with the old 'say the name of the cards and if they are in the muck you can have them back' you are leaving the situation open to exploitation. I have seen and heard of some extremely outlandish attempts at getting a free-roll by some players in this situation. and even if you are honest, that still is not proof that they were your cards.

                                                                                  also

                                                                                  By only taking a small amount of chips off the player who lost their card you are subsequently 'punishing' the remaining player. He Really
                                                                                  did nothing wrong here, he called your all in believing he can beat you. Puts all his chips at risk that other may also call and beat him, risks that you may have a stronger holding, basically puts his chips on the line. but because you weren't paying attention you allowed the dealer to muck your cards and now the floorman has allowed you off with a minimum raise and you're still in the game. That's hardly fair on the caller!.

                                                                                  By giving any "lenience" here to allow the player off with a light bet, or a chance at getting his cards back you are opening the game up to more and more exploration. Now I know most people here from the live events and I know that they are 100% honest. No name that has come up in this discussion has ever made me suspect foul play. But that does not mean that there aren't people out there who would chance their arm at free chips here.

                                                                                  If I know I will get 'punished' with only having to make a small raise, then I know I can try a sneaky raise all in. Then if someone who I dont want to call (...say a 100% rock, only plays the boots) if that rock calls me then I can easily slip my cards into the muck here. Scream and shout at the dealer that they mucked them. no one would doubt me, the dealer sure cant argue he's thinking 'did i muck them, im not sure, i was staring down that girls top. I couldve mucked them by accident'.

                                                                                  The floor man is called and gives me most of my chips back. Sure its a risky move, but there are 100% people out there who will try.

                                                                                  If the rule is (as it is now) your cards are in the muck, and someone has called this bet then you lose. Sorry, you should protect your hand better.


                                                                                  You are correct, it is a horrible thing to happen to someone when it is a genuine mistake.
                                                                                  But for a dealer to muck a hand accidentally a few things have to happen.
                                                                                  • The dealer needs to be a little less than 100% (believe me it doesnt always happen when they are tired.) Pay slightly less attention than they should be paying (ie talking to, or being talked at by an extremely gregarious player who is enjoying the banter, not looking at anyone in particular here. cough cough).
                                                                                  • The player needs to put his cards somewhere where the dealer can grab them.
                                                                                  • And the player needs to not be paying attention.


                                                                                  Get all these factors then your cards will likely be mucked.

                                                                                  And it can so easily be prevented:
                                                                                  • make sure the dealer know they are your cards
                                                                                  • "hey dealer, stop bantering and pay attention. these are my cards! im all in"
                                                                                  • Hold your cards in your hand. Even the sloppiest dealer will have a hard time mucking those.


                                                                                  Now you have protected your cards and they will never be mucked until you allow them to be.

                                                                                  If you did your part, then you are golden. If you did not then you are the only one to blame.

                                                                                  When people tell me the dealer mucked their cards then I feel terrible, in the same way as when my friend stands up and sees his phone is gone. Yes I want to help, Yes I want to get it back. Yes I feel like shit for you, but... I cannot help you, I cannot get your stuff back and as bad as we both feel, if you were more careful with your phone then maybe you wouldn't have lost it.

                                                                                  That's what it's like to be a floorman here. What are you supposed to do when someone loses their phone in the pub and then turns to you to fix it? and then blames you when you can't.
                                                                                  "Sorry, but that's is life mate, keep your phone secure in your pocket and you wont lose it."
                                                                                  "but it fell out of my pocket"
                                                                                  "then you should've got tighter pockets"
                                                                                  "I cant, i need the big pockets to keep my keys"
                                                                                  "Well, keep your keys on a ring and your phone on belt case"
                                                                                  "What do you want me to do, walk around all day looking like a knob with my phone on my belt?"
                                                                                  "Well, what do you want here? your phone back or to look cool?"
                                                                                  "Well thats no help, why did you let me lose my phone in the first place! you saw me texting and then i put it in my pocket. You should have told me my pockets were too big"
                                                                                  "look mate, its your phone, im not your mum. Learn to look after your shit properly and then you wont lose it so often"
                                                                                  "you know what, youre a prick!"
                                                                                  "yes, clearly Im the prick here, cos you lost your phone"
                                                                                  "Im going home, give me money for a taxi"
                                                                                  "no, use your own money"
                                                                                  "yeah, but i got to buy a new phone, so i need to save my money"
                                                                                  "im not giving you money"
                                                                                  "see, you are a prick"

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  Working...
                                                                                  X