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    AA in a 2-5-10 NLHE live

    8 handed 2-5 -10 straddle is on.
    I'm on the button playing €575

    Limp €10 FROM 2 lag's then it's folded to me on the button with AA.
    €37 in the pot.
    I raise to €50 and LAG in BB (playing €258) tanks and flats. I would be viewed as TAG so actually a bit surprised at the BB call as he would normally stay out of pots I raise.

    2nd LAG limper in MP (playing €800ish) calls too, so 3 go to the flop.
    €172 in the pot.
    Both players are regs and LAGS and both capable and winners. BB would be tighter in this position but MP LAG will call with ATC if he sniffs a pot building.
    Flop is K99 rainbow.
    BB leads €100, MP tanks and raises to €200,
    I ?

    #2
    I go broke here every time that the wrong one has the 9.

    I think some good players might like a fold if it was deeper but for an effective 50 bb's I'm never ever folding.
    Turning millions into thousands

    Comment


      #3
      the bb is all over the road, you can disregard him completely imo. just call and get the rest in later.

      Comment


        #4
        nice looking cash game, was this in fitz or?

        ok imo I think the guy in bb defo has ak or kq sooted as he doesnt call your raises with garbage hands... therefore it is he I would exclude from the hand your defo ahead of him.. but the guy who min raised to 200 even if he is a lag i would still be concentrating on him.. your stack size makes it impossible to flat call here..never flat call ere!! one thing i would have to no before i can say exactly what i would do is would this guy be min raising alot in pots with marginal holdings or even once b4 wher he has shown a marginal hand??
        this was a heart breaking spot im sure
        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
          nice looking cash game, was this in fitz or?

          ok imo I think the guy in bb defo has ak or kq sooted as he doesnt call your raises with garbage hands... therefore it is he I would exclude from the hand your defo ahead of him.. but the guy who min raised to 200 even if he is a lag i would still be concentrating on him.. your stack size makes it impossible to flat call here..never flat call ere!! one thing i would have to no before i can say exactly what i would do is would this guy be min raising alot in pots with marginal holdings or even once b4 wher he has shown a marginal hand??
          this was a heart breaking spot im sure
          I'd already decided to shove over the BB's lead bet. The MP LAG's min raise made me pause though, he normally has top pair, 2 pair or a big draw when he does this. I couldn't see him doing it with KJ. He has zero fold equity against the BB as he only has €108 behind.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
            your stack size makes it impossible to flat call here..never flat call ere!!
            No it doesnt, why not.
            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
            I like this heat - some proper music innit.
            None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

            Comment


              #7
              Definitely don't raise over the min-raise. Easy flat call and get it in on the turn. If he's as lag and bad as you say anyway.

              Comment


                #8
                You can't flat the flop StarvinMarvin. It would need to be HU and alot deeper if i was to flat this with AA.

                Thats a horrible spot Gordon. I think its a fold, unless you know hes making a crazy move. Do the two lads in the hand have history with each other?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by J10spades View Post
                  You can't flat the flop StarvinMarvin. It would need to be HU and alot deeper if i was to flat this with AA.

                  Thats a horrible spot Gordon. I think its a fold, unless you know hes making a crazy move. Do the two lads in the hand have history with each other?
                  Of course you can.
                  Flatting >>> Shoving
                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                  I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                  None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by J10spades View Post
                    You can't flat the flop StarvinMarvin. It would need to be HU and alot deeper if i was to flat this with AA.

                    Thats a horrible spot Gordon. I think its a fold, unless you know hes making a crazy move. Do the two lads in the hand have history with each other?
                    The 2 lads would know each other well and would battle a bit yeah.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post
                      Definitely don't raise over the min-raise. Easy flat call and get it in on the turn. If he's as lag and bad as you say anyway.
                      He is LAG but I didn't say he was bad. He generally plays a lot of pots, is not afraid of a raise and plays a high variance game pushing hard with drawing hands. But he's winning in the game most nights.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You basically described Tom Dwan lol . Really intrested to hear how this played out.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                          He is LAG but I didn't say he was bad. He generally plays a lot of pots, is not afraid of a raise and plays a high variance game pushing hard with drawing hands. But he's winning in the game most nights.
                          Well a lag in a game like that, while probably a winner, most likely has several leaks and is prone to mistakes. So he might be relatively 'bad' as opposed to really bad if you get what I mean. I think its a clear flatcall even though it might look transparent because the pot will be too big for him to fold any kings really and he might still continue any bluffs

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Flat to keep BB in, the turn plays itselfs

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                              Flat to keep BB in, the turn plays itselfs
                              The BB is going nowhere, he has €150 in the pot with €108 behind.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Sorry, thought BB had much more behind. 25bbs at 5/10 :-/

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                  Sorry, thought BB had much more behind. 25bbs at 5/10 :-/
                                  It's 2-5 but the straddle is on this hand.
                                  Straddle is on maybe twice per orbit, and it's usually these villians doing the straddling.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                    Sorry, thought BB had much more behind. 25bbs at 5/10 :-/
                                    he's obv 5th leveling with Ks full knowing that leading for 1/2 stack will induce a bluff from limper and op has AA here 100% of the time. superstar play really.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Where was this game?

                                      Flop is pretty easy flat IMO. Need to see turn and action to say more.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I think this is a fold

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Valor View Post
                                          I think this is a fold
                                          It's not a fold. But if your gonna say that you could at least give a reason.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                                            Where was this game?

                                            Flop is pretty easy flat IMO. Need to see turn and action to say more.
                                            The Loft.

                                            I don't think there is any more information to be gained now as my next action has me pot commited anyway.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Howard_Finkel View Post
                                              It's not a fold. But if your gonna say that you could at least give a reason.
                                              what, like the reasons you've given why its not?

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I know I'd shove here, but a flat call is probably better.

                                                The min-raise from mp is a bit strange. Why min-raise? Does he do that a lot?
                                                If he has trips or a FH a min-raise here is pretty daft.
                                                If he flat calls, you raise a high % of the time anyway, but instead he's isolating the person with no chips and doing his utmost to put you under pressure.


                                                It doesn't make sense to me, so because of that I shove or call.... never fold.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I was leaning towards a fold but its the thing cardshark says about when I see people describe live players as lags in these kind of games it generally just means they are not very good which makes me want to call.

                                                  Opr

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I'm caught between calling and getting it in on turn and just folding. I think I call though. I really dislike shoving.
                                                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Fold

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I think its a fold.

                                                        Tommygunne is that Box of Box-Jenkins in your sig? If so, awesome.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I expected the good players to like a fold but it is only 50 bbs deep and MP has to have a 9 for a fold to be profitable.

                                                          Why would MP be min raising any 9 ?
                                                          Turning millions into thousands

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                            No it doesnt, why not.
                                                            simple he is calling 200 leaving 325 behind... like come on are u seriously gonna fold after putting in nearly half your stack???
                                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                              I'd already decided to shove over the BB's lead bet. The MP LAG's min raise made me pause though, he normally has top pair, 2 pair or a big draw when he does this. I couldn't see him doing it with KJ. He has zero fold equity against the BB as he only has €108 behind.
                                                              wel if he doesn't do it with kj I would defo go for the fold more likely he has the 9!!! plus you only have 50 in and just aces on a dangerous board! ye and i would always just flat the bb lead if was hu creates doubt that he might have the best hand with a K.
                                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                I expected the good players to like a fold but it is only 50 bbs deep and MP has to have a 9 for a fold to be profitable.

                                                                Why would MP be min raising any 9 ?
                                                                I think its 80bbs effective no? MP has 800euro. You could say why would he minraise a 9 but then why would he minraise anything else either? Also, most people in the game are probably not used to playing 2/5/10 I think (correct me if I'm wrong but the 10 straddle is not that usual in the fitz is it?) so I think most live regs are gonna be scared-money ish so they're gonna have way tighter stack off ranges in this spot than usual.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  oh lol i got mixed up guys i thought the bb had the 800 stack...whooooops.
                                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by colquhom

                                                                    Tommygunne is that Box of Box-Jenkins in your sig? If so, awesome.
                                                                    Yup. I really am a nerd.
                                                                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      lol sigh, so did I.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                                        Yup. I really am a nerd.
                                                                        That is certainly the nerdiest thing I have ever seen. Good quote though.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by colquhom View Post
                                                                          I think its 80bbs effective no? MP has 800euro. You could say why would he minraise a 9 but then why would he minraise anything else either? Also, most people in the game are probably not used to playing 2/5/10 I think (correct me if I'm wrong but the 10 straddle is not that usual in the fitz is it?) so I think most live regs are gonna be scared-money ish so they're gonna have way tighter stack off ranges in this spot than usual.
                                                                          Doesn't matter so much who has the 800 stack, we only have 575.

                                                                          FWIW I fold

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            I still prefer a fold gorrr... for reasons outside of the hand aswel.. you are playing a cash game with players who are not of the highest quality therefore you could find better spots to get your money in really good and double up without the heartache, you have to factor that into this hand also as its a decision for all your money... playin a cash game i would always take this into account so I would go for the fold... to put it to rest I believe whatever play you decided on doing is fine because there is great arguements for getting it in and folding as you can see from all the responses!
                                                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Weird spot. I fold for the reasons Valor said

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by RoadSweeper View Post
                                                                                Weird spot. I fold for the reasons Valor said
                                                                                lol. wp

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I don't want to fold because I think the guys range probably has as much Kx in it as 9x if not more.

                                                                                  Firstly he's probably not a 'capable LAG' because a) he overlimped UTG+1 in an 8 handed game (ok not always terrible) b) he has a minraising range on this flop at all (I pretty much think ever minraising this flop in his spot is bad with any hand). Hence, he can have Kx in his minraising range on this flop and hence we can't fold the flop.

                                                                                  So I call the €200 and then call the AI from the BB and then I call his turn bet (probably a shove, pots getting huge) too.
                                                                                  Last edited by pok3rplaya; 24-05-10, 15:21. Reason: 'to one bet' redundant

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    which one of them is supposed to have the 9? i can't understand why either would play a 9 this way.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by BuChan View Post
                                                                                      which one of them is supposed to have the 9? i can't understand why either would play a 9 this way.
                                                                                      This is true, but as its being pointed out pretty well by pokerplaya bother are most likely bad players so you would have to start thinking like a donk. Either could have a 9 I would say!! It's a pretty weird spot as no hand should be minraisng the turn.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        there's just no way i'm folding here.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Actually MP is probably some genius who is just after watching HSP were he seen durrrr make some crazy move and now hes trying to fit it into his own game. He thinks that by him MR here on the flop you won't come along unless you have a hand stronger than AA

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            I'd have to go along with a fold here. I wouldnt be happy about it though but after MP limps pre he wont have many Kx hands that he min raises here, his range is bascially a 9.
                                                                                            "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              meh lots of live players limp K2s and KTo here. They also limp KQ when they're in EP and there's a big ass scary straddle on.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                I'm not folding either. Call and get the rest in later. Yeah they will have a 9 sometimes but more often then not this is Kx.

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Last week against same MP villain.
                                                                                                  3 handed, the game is winding down. It's a 1-2 NLHE no straddle. We're all playing €300ish.
                                                                                                  Button raises to €10, I make it €30 with QQ, MP Villain (in BB for this hand obv) calls and button calls.
                                                                                                  Flop is 10 8 7 rainbow, I check, BB bets €100, button goes all in, I fold and BB calls. BB has 10 8 for top 2 and button has AJ for a gutshot no flushdraw.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    that doesn't really tell us anything except that he's a fish

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      I don't really play enough cash to know if my play is profitable or not and I am not rolled for 2-5 so I am scared money tbh.

                                                                                                      I primarily play tournaments and I think in a tournament setting you are behind to at least one of these players 80-90% of the time if the money goes in on this flop.

                                                                                                      Anyway, I probably wanted to vindicate my play and reasons behind it. Blaaaaahhhh is right when he said there are much better spots in this game to chip up and get it in a lot better. I got most of it in against same villain later with top 2 and got it all against a fish when I value bet a 10 high flush on the river and he shoved with trips

                                                                                                      I reluctantly fold and BB shoves (was he ever doing anything else). BB has AK and MP has A10
                                                                                                      I mean WTF?
                                                                                                      I have never seen him spew like this. I asked him WTF? and he said he thought the BB might fold QQ.

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                                                                        Blaaaaahhhh is right when he said there are much better spots in this game to chip up and get it in a lot better. I got most of it in against same villain later with top 2 and got it all against a fish when I value bet a 10 high flush on the river and he shoved with trips
                                                                                                        Better spots don't exist. There's +EV and -EV spots. This is a +EV spot.

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                                          I still prefer a fold gorrr... for reasons outside of the hand aswel.. you are playing a cash game with players who are not of the highest quality therefore you could find better spots to get your money in really good and double up without the heartache, you have to factor that into this hand also as its a decision for all your money... playin a cash game i would always take this into account so I would go for the fold... to put it to rest I believe whatever play you decided on doing is fine because there is great arguements for getting it in and folding as you can see from all the responses!
                                                                                                          I think you misread the hand again, it's a cash game.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Last two posts win the thread.
                                                                                                            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                                                            I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                                                            None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by RedJoker View Post
                                                                                                              I think you misread the hand again, it's a cash game.
                                                                                                              Eh?

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                                                                                Eh?
                                                                                                                "Better spots" are going to exist regardless of whether you call or fold. It's basically irrelevant to the decision.
                                                                                                                Last edited by RedJoker; 24-05-10, 21:13.

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  bb bet is almost as bad and the bluff. your reads were a bit off, this was a "good spot"


                                                                                                                  Board: Kh 9h 9d
                                                                                                                  Dead:

                                                                                                                  equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                                                                                                  Hand 0: 55.814% 51.45% 04.37% 401372 34083.50 { AhAs }
                                                                                                                  Hand 1: 35.214% 30.53% 04.69% 238158 36575.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
                                                                                                                  Hand 2: 08.973% 08.65% 00.32% 67468 2535.50 { 33-22, AJs-ATs, KJs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo, AcTs, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                                                                                    I am not rolled for 2-5 so I am scared money tbh.
                                                                                                                    This and the location is what it is all about. IMO Games like this are a disaster for competent players like you. The degens want to play a high variance game and the club needs to maximise the rake so the 1/2 game slips into a 5/10 game and they are in their element and you are not only giving up your edge you are giving them one.

                                                                                                                    Once again, every time the straddle goes in it is a 5/10 game not 2/5 OK you have the choice not to put the straddle on when it comes around to you but the price of poker is now 5/10.
                                                                                                                    Last edited by Strewelpeter; 24-05-10, 22:42.
                                                                                                                    Turning millions into thousands

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                                                                                                                      meh lots of live players limp K2s and KTo here. They also limp KQ when they're in EP and there's a big ass scary straddle on.
                                                                                                                      true but they dont min raise when they hit...they always continue there check call play right to the river... plus gorrr said they are lags yes but not bad players!!
                                                                                                                      its a fold
                                                                                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by RedJoker View Post
                                                                                                                        "Better spots" are going to exist regardless of whether you call or fold. It's basically irrelevant to the decision.
                                                                                                                        haha this is brilliant...your saying that it doesnt matter ha ok if i said to you before you sat down into a cash game... would you fold aces in a 3 way pot if there was a raise and a reraise in front of you on a paired board? plus you were told your table was soft thats is almost certain you are going to win just as much regardless... you still shove?
                                                                                                                        I do see where you are coming from but I cant believe you think its regardless to the decision at hand!
                                                                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                                                        Comment

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