Top top in 3 bet pot, deep 1/2 live

[alanmc101]

Stacks are me (button) €800, cutoff €500 and sb €1k. Cutoff opens to 10, i 3 bet aqdd to 30, sb (whos mully85 recently won ukipt Galway) cold calls and orig rser comes along. Flop comes q74r, mully leads for 2/3 pot, c/o calls and i call. Turn 3s bringing backdoor spade draw, mully continues with another chunky c bet, c/o gets out of the way and i call. Rivers a 6s which brings backdoor spades and he fires close to pot. Im curious to know who calls the river here. Mullys a very good player, and the hand from the flop on was a totally weird spot that rarely comes up, hes leading and continuing into a 3 bettor and another player, continuing to barrel the turn despite bein called in 2 spots and bombing river. Put him on a hand.

[Jules]

Set or overpair.

[Moneymaker]

Well he'd have to be insane to be bluffing here.

His range is AQs/KQs/QQ/77/44 though the last three are unlikely but he may have decided to set mine or not want to 4bet QQ and be in some bad spots OOP since we're deep. 56 got there but does he really call 30 OOP with that? Probably not.

His value range is ridic narrow but does someone 3 barrell trying to blow you off(what is admittedly a very face up range, strong Qs, KK/AA)?

Some more information/reads would be nice. Has he been calling a lot OOP? Have you been 3betting a lot? Etc etc. Readless its an easy fold, might even fold the turn as his line is v strong.

His flop lead is really weird though, that would definitely confuse me.

[Hectorjelly]

Fold turn, if he is a good player he is going to fire the river again and your hand isn't going to improve.

[alanmc101]

Fold turn, if he is a good player he is going to fire the river again and your hand isn't going to improve.

fold turn when we only lose to sets/aa/kk, na not a fan of that one

[Arazi]

I guess 56 is possible or a hand that contains a 5. Having got here i probably call but like HJ said I'm deciding on the turn.

[alanmc101]

Well he'd have to be insane to be bluffing here.

His range is AQs/KQs/QQ/77/44 though the last three are unlikely but he may have decided to set mine or not want to 4bet QQ and be in some bad spots OOP since we're deep. 56 got there but does he really call 30 OOP with that? Probably not.

His value range is ridic narrow but does someone 3 barrell trying to blow you off(what is admittedly a very face up range, strong Qs, KK/AA)?

Some more information/reads would be nice. Has he been calling a lot OOP? Have you been 3betting a lot? Etc etc. Readless its an easy fold, might even fold the turn as his line is v strong.

His flop lead is really weird though, that would definitely confuse me.

No i hadnt been 3 betting much, if at all, spots prob jus didnt arise but mully knows im capable of it. Im confident he 4 balls aa/kk/qq in this spot vs me though, so im puttin him on small pps and big a's here. Reads wise he bet the flop pretty quickly and Im so suspicious of it as its such a strange line to take for him.

[alanmc101]

I guess 56 is possible or a hand that contains a 5. Having got here i probably call but like HJ said I'm deciding on the turn.

No way dude! He'd never cold call that hand, hes solid. Only 5's in his range are 55.

[Hectorjelly]

fold turn when we only lose to sets/aa/kk, na not a fan of that one

There are a lot of times when it makes no difference if you have the best hand or not. What matters is if the call is going to be plus or minus EV. Given you don't know what your opponent has, he seems to have a good idea of what you have (and your hand is towards the bottom of your range) & the fact that he is a good player, means this is probably going to be a losing call for you on the turn.

If the turn bet was all in then your logic might hold, but with another street to come there's more to consider.

[Arazi]

Well he'd have to be insane to be bluffing here.

His range is AQs/KQs/QQ/77/44 though the last three are unlikely but he may have decided to set mine or not want to 4bet QQ and be in some bad spots OOP since we're deep. 56 got there but does he really call 30 OOP with that? Probably not.

His value range is ridic narrow but does someone 3 barrell trying to blow you off(what is admittedly a very face up range, strong Qs, KK/AA)?

Some more information/reads would be nice. Has he been calling a lot OOP? Have you been 3betting a lot? Etc etc. Readless its an easy fold, might even fold the turn as his line is v strong.

His flop lead is really weird though, that would definitely confuse me.

This is cash, deep at the IO. That range is miles off imo.
He can have called here with lots of 5's (75, 65, 54, 35). This game is likely to have been playing very loose so when he leads at that flop he has to have some piece of it so given turn and river I'd say your beat.

Ignore this if villain was not playing like 80% of the players there.

[HiCloy]

Fold turn, this deep he can have 56s and seems his most likely holding after QQ/77/44. Plenty of people don't 4bet QQ this deep OOP. It seems far more likely than him having worse for value or a bluff somehow

[alanmc101]

This is cash, deep at the IO. That range is miles off imo.
He can have called here with lots of 5's (75, 65, 54, 35). This game is likely to have been playing very loose so when he leads at that flop he has to have some piece of it so given turn and river I'd say your beat.

Ignore this if villain was not playing like 80% of the players there.

No this guy was prob the best player grindin 1/2, hes not a spewy type and i dont see him callin cold here oop with those types of hands.

[Moneymaker]

This is cash, deep at the IO. That range is miles off imo.
He can have called here with lots of 5's (75, 65, 54, 35). This game is likely to have been playing very loose so when he leads at that flop he has to have some piece of it so given turn and river I'd say your beat.

Ignore this if villain was not playing like 80% of the players there.

Read his description, he has said villain is good. He's not one of these droolers with 80%+ vchip peeling OOP with 56soooooooooted cos 'it looks pretty' or 'i can crack a big hand with this' or some other donk logic.

[alanmc101]

There are a lot of times when it makes no difference if you have the best hand or not. What matters is if the call is going to be plus or minus EV. Given you don't know what your opponent has, he seems to have a good idea of what you have (and your hand is towards the bottom of your range) & the fact that he is a good player, means this is probably going to be a losing call for you on the turn.

If the turn bet was all in then your logic might hold, but with another street to come there's more to consider.

I have to disagree here mate, having the best hand at any point is my number one consideration, and if i think i have the best hand my call should be plus ev. Basically here i did not respect his flop lead, it gets a little bit worrying when he bombs turn but hes a capable aggro whos aware that hes repping huge strength when he double barrells here. Like he wouldve got this bet thru you for example, a thinking player.

[DrJFF]

i think your range is very polarised in his view, like Q74 is a very dry flop and once he gets the other guy out of the pot on the turn, he can barrel you off most of your range by the river,

what is the exact bets on the flop and turn, and what is the potsize on the turn once he bets how much do you have behind?

[alanmc101]

i think your range is very polarised in his view, like Q74 is a very dry flop and once he gets the other guy out of the pot on the turn, he can barrel you off most of your range by the river,

what is the exact bets on the flop and turn, and what is the potsize on the turn once he bets how much do you have behind?

his range is the one that's polarized on the river, I can have anythin from sets/overpairs to qx hands, he has nuts/bluff here. his sizing was between 2/3 and 3/4 pot on flop and turn, river was slightly bigger and we both had 3x pot left on river

[DrJFF]

his range is the one that's polarized on the river, I can have anythin from sets/overpairs to qx hands, he has nuts/bluff here. his sizing was between 2/3 and 3/4 pot on flop and turn, river was slightly bigger and we both had 3x pot left on river

just from his sizing and the given stacks, i'm struggling to see how you can have 3x pot by the river,

how do you think he perceives you? how have you been playing have you been 3betting much in position?

what i meant if you are playing reasonably solid then by the river you calling range is pretty small given his line and any hand you call with is going to be a hero call of sorts and alot of your stronger hands in your range are going to get more chips in before the river

[Hectorjelly]

I have to disagree here mate, having the best hand at any point is my number one consideration, and if i think i have the best hand my call should be plus ev.

Well it shouldn't be. Examples would be having 22 on the big blind facing a raise from a good player in late position. You probably have the best hand now, but it really doesn't make that much difference, calling is going to be - EV. Or facing a bet on a board of TTQ two spades with an underpair out of position, you more than likely have the best hand now, but that isn't the most important factor.

It seems that if you have the best hand a call will be +EV, but that's actually an illusion. Unless the action stops when you call, you need to factor in later streets. Most of the time you will be playing a player worse than you, so you can disregard this, but anytime you are up against a good player, you need to include the fact that he will make as good or better decisions as you will, and if you have a weak hand there is a good chance he will make you fold it. Actually the same applies if the opponent is merely aggressive, he doesn't need to be that good.

Basically here i did not respect his flop lead, it gets a little bit worrying when he bombs turn but hes a capable aggro whos aware that hes repping huge strength when he double barrells here. Like he wouldve got this bet thru you for example, a thinking player.

I don't know if I would fold the turn, if I knew the guy was capable/likely to be bluffing here it's obviously not an easy fold. What do you think his range is on the flop? How likely is he to start a bluff here?

[alanmc101]

Well it shouldn't be. Examples would be having 22 on the big blind facing a raise from a good player in late position. You probably have the best hand now, but it really doesn't make that much difference, calling is going to be - EV. Or facing a bet on a board of TTQ two spades with an underpair out of position, you more than likely have the best hand now, but that isn't the most important factor.

It seems that if you have the best hand a call will be +EV, but that's actually an illusion. Unless the action stops when you call, you need to factor in later streets. Most of the time you will be playing a player worse than you, so you can disregard this, but anytime you are up against a good player, you need to include the fact that he will make as good or better decisions as you will, and if you have a weak hand there is a good chance he will make you fold it. Actually the same applies if the opponent is merely aggressive, he doesn't need to be that good.



I don't know if I would fold the turn, if I knew the guy was capable/likely to be bluffing here it's obviously not an easy fold. What do you think his range is on the flop? How likely is he to start a bluff here?

Ok, this spot is completely different to havin 22 in the bb or an underpair to a scary board, we have top top here.
Well [retty likely i thought hence my calling him down, i felt like he was takin a stab otf, but when he continues ott thats where it gets interesting for me. Would he continue on a stone cold bluff here after bein called in 2 spots, i dont think so but still doesnt mean we're beat right now.

[Winning!]

Folding turn vs mully, doesn't seem close after he cold-calls OOP pre and donks big into two players on consecutive streets... his range has to be super-strong here

[alanmc101]

Everyone seems to think hes nutted here ott, but i just didtn believe him. When he fires river though with backdoor spades gettin ther, i think its a fold. I dont think he continues barrelling the turn vs 2 of us with a no equity hand. But the hand was so weird i called and he had ajss. The most important street here is the river, like would he continue barrelling air ott, doubtful, so his river range is sets/flushes or unlikely 3 barrell spazzes. So my river call is pretty bad in hindsight.

[Guest]

Everyone seems to think hes nutted here ott, but i just didtn believe him. When he fires river though with backdoor spades gettin ther, i think its a fold. I dont think he continues barrelling the turn vs 2 of us with a no equity hand.

Unless he's terrible he won't be barreling the flop vs. two people in a 3bet pot with a no equity hand either.

Also I don't think there's anything wrong with peeling 56s here in his spot when we're 250bb deep with relative position in a multi-way situation where people are going to be playing more straightforwardly than they would HU.

[BigDeal]

his range is the one that's polarized on the river, I can have anythin from sets/overpairs to qx hands, he has nuts/bluff here. his sizing was between 2/3 and 3/4 pot on flop and turn, river was slightly bigger and we both had 3x pot left on river

Something wrong here, going by OP you should have less than PSB on the river, I fold the turn, don't like calling off 400bb with tptk.

[Hectorjelly]

Unless he's terrible he won't be barreling the flop vs. two people in a 3bet pot with a no equity hand either.

Also I don't think there's anything wrong with peeling 56s here in his spot when we're 250bb deep with relative position in a multi-way situation where people are going to be playing more straightforwardly than they would HU.

1 - I can't see how that is right. Such a blanket statement is clearly incorrect. He might have a million reasons for doing so

2 - 56s here is terrible, he isn't closing the action and will just be throwing away his initial 30 without seeing the flop a good portion of the time, with a hand that will tend to make the idiot end of straights and bad flushes

[Closed_Account]

1 - I can't see how that is right. Such a blanket statement is clearly incorrect. He might have a million reasons for doing so

2 - 56s here is terrible, he isn't closing the action and will just be throwing away his initial 30 without seeing the flop a good portion of the time, with a hand that will tend to make the idiot end of straights and bad flushes

I couldnt agree with this more. Particularly the second point. Like, I am prone to calling here but I am aware just how bad it is! You are throwing loots away so so often.

I hate when people say stuff like " he must be terrible if....he did x y or z" Fair enough, it might be a terrible choice or a horrific decision etc but everyone is capable of that.

Saying that I hate his flop lead with no hand there so so much! Even if he thinks "wow if I barrel the fook out of all streets this will look insanely strong" still going to get called a fair but as its nuts or lunacy. MBN to back into the nuts easy peasy lemon squeezy.

[Guest]

1 - I can't see how that is right. Such a blanket statement is clearly incorrect. He might have a million reasons for doing so

2 - 56s here is terrible, he isn't closing the action and will just be throwing away his initial 30 without seeing the flop a good portion of the time, with a hand that will tend to make the idiot end of straights and bad flushes

I completely mis-read the HH. Don't mind anything I said. Thought villain was c/o

[Moneymaker]

I couldnt agree with this more. Particularly the second point. Like, I am prone to calling here but I am aware just how bad it is! You are throwing loots away so so often.

I hate when people say stuff like " he must be terrible if....he did x y or z" Fair enough, it might be a terrible choice or a horrific decision etc but everyone is capable of that.

Saying that I hate his flop lead with no hand there so so much! Even if he thinks "wow if I barrel the fook out of all streets this will look insanely strong" still going to get called a fair but as its nuts or lunacy. MBN to back into the nuts easy peasy lemon squeezy.

I like it, it looks really strong, its hard to make a big hand on this type of board and we can pick up a lot of backdoors we can feel good about barrelling with on the turn, as this hand played out. Only problem is its so fishy and he reps so little but I still think its a good play.

[pocket9s]

Im probably sigh folding the turn here after tanking to be honest.

Really interesting hand though.

Could you PM me what happened, did you fold, or did you call and win lose?

No problem if you cant

[alanmc101]

Im probably sigh folding the turn here after tanking to be honest.

Really interesting hand though.

Could you PM me what happened, did you fold, or did you call and win lose?

No problem if you cant

see above

[pocket9s]

Oh sorry mate, river call is pretty bad but in all honesty i just think you got unlucky in this hand.

[RoadSweeper]

Ok, this spot is completely different to havin 22 in the bb or an underpair to a scary board, we have top top here.
Well [retty likely i thought hence my calling him down, i felt like he was takin a stab otf, but when he continues ott thats where it gets interesting for me. Would he continue on a stone cold bluff here after bein called in 2 spots, i dont think so but still doesnt mean we're beat right now.

The same theory applies. You have the best hand in the situation but facing further action vs an aggro player and loads of scare cards, it means you can't call profitably assuming he doesn't check give up every river without a hand.

An under pair or top top, it doesn't matter. Your absolute hand strength isn't important its the relative strength to the board you need to look at. This is why a fish doexnt fold the under full house even though its glaringly obvious the opponent has the bigger house. The say "But I have a house" and call.

[alanmc101]

Oh sorry mate, river call is pretty bad but in all honesty i just think you got unlucky in this hand.

thanks mate

[alanmc101]

The same theory applies. You have the best hand in the situation but facing further action vs an aggro player and loads of scare cards, it means you can't call profitably assuming he doesn't check give up every river without a hand.

An under pair or top top, it doesn't matter. Your absolute hand strength isn't important its the relative strength to the board you need to look at. This is why a fish doexnt fold the under full house even though its glaringly obvious the opponent has the bigger house. The say "But I have a house" and call.

I see what you're saying dude, and what hector was getting at, but I'm not in the habit of folding this hand ott to a player like mully.

[minor]

I prob would hav raised the flop in that spot.

His river bet shows extreme strength. Its sounds lik you knew you were beaten but curiosity got the better of you.

As it played out you just got very unlucky in the hand.

[alanmc101]

I prob would hav raised the flop in that spot.

His river bet shows extreme strength. Its sounds lik you knew you were beaten but curiosity got the better of you.

As it played out you just got very unlucky in the hand.

raising the flop is horrible here, it'll accomplish one of 2 undesirable things, either worse hands fold or we open the door for him to bluff us off our hand.

[minor]

raising the flop is horrible here, it'll accomplish one of 2 undesirable things, either worse hands fold or we open the door for him to bluff us off our hand.

I would be quite happy to add the €180 to my stack by raising the flop.

Its a multi way pot so I dont think its that "undesirable" to take the pot down now.

All you hav is top pair. If it was heads up a call is prob the best play.

[alanmc101]

I would be quite happy to add the €180 to my stack by raising the flop.

Its a multi way pot so I dont think its that "undesirable" to take the pot down now.

All you hav is top pair. If it was heads up a call is prob the best play.

its a losing play. our hands either way in front/way behind. mully is aggro hence is fully capable of playin back at us if we raise the flop putting us in a horrible spot. what's your reason for raising? is it for value? if so what worse will call? your logic of wanting to protect and take down this pot is wrong