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AK BVB vs Nit 150bb deep

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    AK BVB vs Nit 150bb deep

    IPoker Network $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
    The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

    UTG: $102.00
    CO: $102.30
    BTN: $95.40
    SB: $204.60
    Hero (BB): $155.55

    Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with K:club: A:spade:
    3 folds, SB raises to $4, Hero calls $3

    Flop: ($8.00) T:club: 5:heart: K:diamond: (2 players)
    SB bets $5.00, Hero calls $5

    Turn: ($18.00) 4:diamond: (2 players)
    SB bets $11.00, Hero calls $11

    River: ($40.00) 2:club: (2 players)
    SB bets $25.00, Hero calls $25

    Stats Converter Provided by Tiltdemon

    SB 18.7/13.4/2.13/2482
    fold 2 3bet = 42.4% (33) | cbet = 81.2% (101) | double barell = 48.6% (35)
    wtsd = 36.5% (323) | w$sd = 49.2% (118) | bb/100 = 7.83 (2482)
    Flop Agg = 3.29 | Turn Agg = 1.87 | River Agg = 0.9

    Also hes PFR in SB was 9%

    So its probably pretty standard, a few hands i posted recently though people felt i was leaving too much money behind so just wondering if my thought process is good, i am quite aggressive and do value bet a decent amount in my opinion but maybe theres some spots im being too passive and this maybe one of them but i'm not sure so any comments is very much appreciated.

    Basically im wondering if there is value in raising any of those streets, if so what range am i getting value from?

    #2
    Some late night rambling...

    Have we any specific notes on his tendencies or any relevant history between the two of you? I really wanna raise the flop because we represent nothing (Most people just assume you auto 3 bet AK pre, and wont raise KQ on the flop, so we're basically repping KT and two combos of sets one of which 3 bets pre often as well, at least this is how our raise will be perceived) but it definitely sucks if he 3 bets us, but I think he'll flat with a quite wide range of basically anything that has showdown value if there's any kind of aggro dynamic between us and he'll go into bluff catching mode and once they start on check/calling they find it quite hard to stop.

    As played having flatted the flop I'd definitely flat the turn also, on the river stack sizes are so awkward. I really really wanna raise because his bet sizing looks so weak and should pretty much always be a TP kinda hand that wants us to call wide or a blocker bet for an AT/JJ or something, if he shoves it sucks but I think he shouldn't shove very often, it depends on how often you think he'll level himself into calling with second best hands on the river which again history, tendencies and dynamics will be very important here.
    Last edited by Sledgejammer; 25-01-10, 02:59.
    "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

    Comment


      #3
      I can't see any other way to play this hand.
      Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

      Comment


        #4
        Hand 2:

        IPoker Network $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
        The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

        BB: $100.00
        UTG: $135.80
        MP: $239.05
        CO: $85.50
        Hero (BTN): $168.70
        SB: $103.05

        Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN with Q:heart: K:diamond:
        1 fold, MP raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $3, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold

        Flop: ($10.00) 7:heart: J:diamond: 4:diamond: (3 players)
        SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $8.00, SB calls $8, MP folds

        Turn: ($26.00) K:heart: (2 players)
        SB checks, Hero bets $18.00, SB calls $18

        River: ($62.00) 6:club: (2 players)
        SB checks, Hero?

        Stats Converter Provided by Tiltdemon

        SB 23/15.4/1.84/1078
        3bet = 3% (335) | Squeez = 0% (47) | fold to cbet = 66.7% (45)
        C/R flop = 6.5% (62) | fold to double barell = 62.5% (8) | wtsd = 29.9% (201)
        w$sd = 50% (60) | Flop Agg = 1.58 | Turn Agg = 2.27
        River Agg = 1.89

        So again giving the comments i got about leaving a lot of money behind this is probably standard but i havent got involved in theory in a long time so im quite rusty.

        Villains calls a lot as we can see from the gap between hes PFR and VPIP along with the fact he seems to only 3bet the top of hes range. Checked to me in position with 2 overcard's this is a nice spot to take the pot down.

        So he check calls, hes not overly aggro so i guess we cant rule out sets when he check calls but it looks unlikely, on the turn when he checks theres a lot of draws in hes range aswell as medium pairs and its a good card for the villain to perceive as a bluff as he might think im trying to rep the King, river is a blank as gutshot is very unlikely and all the draws missed so whats your line on the river, do you bet, how much and what range are you trying to get value from, sorry if there a bit standard just a bit rusty and unsure after posting recent hands?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
          Some late night rambling...

          Have we any specific notes on his tendencies or any relevant history between the two of you?
          Previous note where we got all in set vs hes bigger set, pretty standard, nothing else of note, hands were mostly mined.

          Comment


            #6
            3bet the first hand. He calls with a range you beat and the pot gets bigger so you can get your whole stack in which = more value.

            Second hand I bet the turn bigger and just ship the river. He hardly ever has you beat here.

            Comment


              #7
              Why didn't you 3bet pre in Hand1?

              I would find myself wondering why he didn't cbet in Hand 2. It might give me pause, but I think I'd still bet $45-$50 on the river there. There's tons of value to be had from 88-TT and weak jacks.
              "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

              Comment


                #8
                What pok3rplaya said about both hands. I don't think I play hand 1 any different postflop. Its a real nice hand to have in a call down range too.


                If I'm right in thinking that these stats are automated dvdfan, then there is one missing that I'd defo like to see. Steal % from SB. This is very different from his pfr from SB, and varies dramatically between different players of the same stats. Some people just don't like stealing from the SB, and some people do it a stupid amount.
                Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                Comment


                  #9
                  I like a raise somewhere in the AK hand.


                  Deffo bet 2/3 pot on river in hand 2

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                    What pok3rplaya said about both hands. I don't think I play hand 1 any different postflop. Its a real nice hand to have in a call down range too.


                    If I'm right in thinking that these stats are automated dvdfan, then there is one missing that I'd defo like to see. Steal % from SB. This is very different from his pfr from SB, and varies dramatically between different players of the same stats. Some people just don't like stealing from the SB, and some people do it a stupid amount.
                    Yeah your right Tommy, i used to use the 1st raise for each position (basically steal in HM) along with PFR but i redone my hud recently and didnt add it and have been using PFR instead but there can be a huge difference between 1st raise/steal and PFR so i was making a big mistake there as hes steal was actually 17% which completely changes the hand and obviously makes it 3bettable if hes opening that range and only folding 42%. Obviously if he had only a 9% range then hes range for calling a 3bet that i was ahead of was a lot smaller and also preflop hes range for calling a raise was also very small with a 9% PFR the only hand were really getting value raising from is KQ because someone with 9% range is rarely calling a 3bet with KT-KJ and even so hes unlikely to call a raise with those in a 3bet pot so better to let him continue bluffing. Anyway lesson learnt on using the correct stats to define a range, as it turned out in hand 1 he had 8d9d for backdoor flush and bluffed the river small.

                    Hand 2:
                    Looks obvious that am definetely not value betting enough, i bet just over half pot, but id still like to discuss whether people are considering ranges or just like 2/3rd pot size as a value bet when they have a disguised hand.

                    What i mean is are we giving enough thought to what the villains range is or are we just value betting our range without consideration for what calls, or maybe i over analyse what hes range is.

                    So im thinking what hands get to the river that i beat. The turn bet takes almost all bluff hands out of hes range, i think its extremely rare that he check calls the flop with a K that i beat, he calls a lot as i mentioned the gap in hes VPIP to PFR so id estimate in hes ranges are flush draws, OESD like 56 which made 4th pair on the river and hands like JT,J9,QJ,AJ and possibly to a smaller extent a stubborn 88-TT and 87 and A7 or QQ

                    Now AJ is definetely calling a 2/3 PSB a lot of the time but we can see from hes stats hes not a station, he goes to showdown 29%, w$sd 50% so pushing KQ here because were rarely beaten might be true but how often will a decent player be calling a push here. Also when you add in that weaker J's also make a decent part of hes range plus hands like 88-TT and the others i mentioned are we forcing him to make a good fold too often with a 2/3 - push bet. Isnt hes range here a little weak for calling that size without history and thus we should try to make it look like a smaller bet from a missed draw like the guy made in hand 1.

                    I know you can rep a missed draw too by pushing or betting really big but doing so you need a bit of history, some villains will call with Jx here to a big bet as they think your repping the K and running a bluff and your rarely turning another J into a bluff so there either way ahead or way behind but theres not many 100nl players thinking on this level, hes more than likely looking at hes cards and the board although i realise that on a board that drawy it will look like a missed draw bluff a lot too but that still dosent mean hell call a big bet with 77-TT as im not exactly acting weak betting into 2 people on the flop and tripple barrelling.

                    Anyway i bet just over half pot as im looking to get value from a wider range of medium hands as that makes up the majority of hes range along with draws. Basically ive been cutting down my tables, taking notes, trying to get a good idea of ranges and based on hes actions see what part of hes range hed do that with and then make my decision based on that. So if my ranges are wrong or the amount i expect will call with those ranges is wrong, which it looks like by most of the posts saying 2/3+ then id like to nip it in the bud.

                    Anyway i bet just over 1/2 pot and he folded, dont think he folded a J to that bet so i guess he most likely had a draw or possibly a weak pair although i would have expected some pairs like 99-TT to call sometimes giving board texture.

                    One other thing on the turn bet sizing pokerplaya, if were betting bigger here and pushing the river do you always do that bet size on that board texture, i know a lot of players wont even notice bet sizing as we wont get to showdown too often but if say i spot you in a couple of occasions betting almost pot with big hands vs regs then when your up against me we might not have much history but ill have a note you bet size based on strength until there is history. What im basically saying is how do you balance this, are you always betting pot here with your draws and bluffs too or mixing it up with sometimes betting big with strong hands and sometimes not.

                    The thing is i cant think of any hands that wouldn't call a push on the river if i push 74/62 that would call 68/72 on the river if i bet 23/26 instead of 18/26 so im wondering is adjusting your bet sizing based on hand strength have many advantages compared with just betting 2/3 pot against regs in this spot which still forces them into a mistake calling with a draw and allows us to push a very similar range and get called. I ask because i don't vary my Double Barrel size or cbet size much vs regs in standard raised pots, against fish yeah and against regs in 3bet pots yeah but not regs in a standard raise pot so wondering if thats a mistake.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      On the turn betsizing, the way stacks are set up that only 2 more bets can go in, I'd just look to bet really big with anything I want to bet, so I can shove river with whatever parts of it I want to and its not too much of an overbet. Thats also consistent with the board texture imo.
                      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Holy wall of text batman!

                        I'll just say that yes you're right we should always be trying to tailor our betsizes to what we think the villains range is (at small-stakes).

                        However, in a situation like the one you posted, if he has like JQ he's essentially bluff-catching when he calls because he won't expect you to value shove the river with AJ. Theoretically, the idea is that by betting big you take thin value hands (like AJ/JQ) out of your perceived range. This means that your river betting range is now polarized to 2 pair+ and air. The ratio of combo's of 2 pair+ to air is greater than the ratio of combo's of QJ+ to air. Therefore when you bet big you rep a bluff (you rep more combo's of air) better than when you bet small. Since the villain is bluff catching anyway, our goal is to try and rep air as best we can in an effort to elicit a light call from the villain.

                        So, it's preferable to just bet big and have him level himself into calling because he thinks you're bluffing than to bet smaller and have him level himself into thinking you're value betting and fold.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                          Holy wall of text batman!

                          I'll just say that yes you're right we should always be trying to tailor our betsizes to what we think the villains range is (at small-stakes).

                          However, in a situation like the one you posted, if he has like JQ he's essentially bluff-catching when he calls because he won't expect you to value shove the river with AJ. Theoretically, the idea is that by betting big you take thin value hands (like AJ/JQ) out of your perceived range. This means that your river betting range is now polarized to 2 pair+ and air. The ratio of combo's of 2 pair+ to air is greater than the ratio of combo's of QJ+ to air. Therefore when you bet big you rep a bluff (you rep more combo's of air) better than when you bet small. Since the villain is bluff catching anyway, our goal is to try and rep air as best we can in an effort to elicit a light call from the villain.

                          So, it's preferable to just bet big and have him level himself into calling because he thinks you're bluffing than to bet smaller and have him level himself into thinking you're value betting and fold.
                          Good explanation. Thanks for that.
                          "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                            Holy wall of text batman!

                            I'll just say that yes you're right we should always be trying to tailor our betsizes to what we think the villains range is (at small-stakes).

                            However, in a situation like the one you posted, if he has like JQ he's essentially bluff-catching when he calls because he won't expect you to value shove the river with AJ. Theoretically, the idea is that by betting big you take thin value hands (like AJ/JQ) out of your perceived range. This means that your river betting range is now polarized to 2 pair+ and air. The ratio of combo's of 2 pair+ to air is greater than the ratio of combo's of QJ+ to air. Therefore when you bet big you rep a bluff (you rep more combo's of air) better than when you bet small. Since the villain is bluff catching anyway, our goal is to try and rep air as best we can in an effort to elicit a light call from the villain.

                            So, it's preferable to just bet big and have him level himself into calling because he thinks you're bluffing than to bet smaller and have him level himself into thinking you're value betting and fold.
                            Yeah this, though it's opponent dependent, some will be outleveled and make mistakes by not correctly understanding our range and some don't think beyond my hand + pot odds = decision, so it obviously depends on who we're up against.
                            "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              i 3bet pre in hand 1

                              every draw bricked in hand 2 so i like a shove trying to make it look like a busted draw and get value from any jack

                              Comment


                                #16
                                1 - I would 3bet but as played I like your line. I want to try and get a raise in somewhere though, he probably has air an awful lot though.

                                2 - I'd bet more on the turn and i'm definitely betting/jamming the river.

                                Comment

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