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Dragon's Den, IPB Style: Coffee or GTFO

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    Dragon's Den, IPB Style: Coffee or GTFO

    Right, after many months of hmm'ing and haw'ing I've decided to give this a go, or at least investigate its feasibility.
    The plan is to open and run a coffee shop in Dublin city centre solely funded by investment from IPB members. The shop will tentatively be called Coffee or GTFO. I'll be back living in Dublin at the end of October and will take on the running of operations, in the first instance at least.
    In the beginning, I'm thinking it will be very basic and we won't be doing the whole shop fitting/branding thing, but I'm open to correction on this, and absolutely every facet of the business.

    What I need out of you lot is discussions on:
    a) How much money do you think we'll need and what the minimum investment should be
    b) USP
    c) Best location
    d) How decisions will be made
    e) The business-y stuff like setting up a company etc.
    f) How I'm involved financially. I have literally no clue how this stuff works. Usually the person with the idea maintains some % of it despite not having invested an amount commensurate with that %? Also, I'd probably need to pay myself a small amount for the month or two it takes to get up and running so I don't starve, and if it goes well I'd continue to manage it, and of course oversee its growth until global domination is achieved.

    Anyway, expressions of interest in investing are welcome, and we'll work out numbers at a later date after some input from people who know about the business end of things.

    For those of you that don't know me personally, I'm a bit of a coffee nerd and I think I'm pretty well qualified to run a shop. I worked in Bewley's for 4 years and was one of the first officially trained baristas in Ireland having attended their training in academy back in the late 90s. Plenty of people on here know me personally and will doubtless tell you what a top bloke I am!

    OK, have at me....!

    #2
    there's nowhere in Dublin that does a really good standard black coffee, on the go. Starbucks is shite and everywhere else focuses on ridiculous coffee menus and iced coffee and bubble tea and all that shite.

    Good standard coffee is rare.
    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

    Comment


      #3
      In

      Comment


        #4
        ZZZ brothers coffee...


        pah, Keane ruined it. ZZKZ Coffee or GTFO
        http://mobro.co/zuroph
        donate to my hairy lip!

        Comment


          #5
          That sort of model needs a lot of foot-fall but not much browsing wandering sorts. People won't be able to sit down I assume so you need to have a system where the turn around time is extremely fast but the quality is also high. There should be a reasonably limited menu. Some market research would do well here but generally I'd say most people want plain black coffee, Americano, expresso etc. For the sake of speed and ease they'll forego some luxuries and options I'd say.
          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

          Comment


            #6
            Also I can obviously give you a steer towards the right people to talk to about the legals once it gets to that stage.
            You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
            World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

            Comment


              #7
              Too much overheads, there is some dude in a mobile Coffee van down in IFSC that always has a massive queue every morning and lunch. This type of business needs to be done solo to generate any profit imo.

              Something like below http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/busi...nities/1993338 although his is much bigger.
              Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

              Comment


                #8
                Kayroo is out for saying 'expresso'

                Yeah Rasta, he has an Aixam MegaVan. Problem with mobile van is licensing (DCC are lolbad), standing in the cold all day, and possibility ox expansion.

                Comment


                  #9


                  Can you do this?

                  Maybe a GTFO in Foam?
                  People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                  Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                    #10
                    I'm thinking somewhere small, but that has maybe 2 couches and a bar with 7-8 seats.

                    Yeah I can do all the Latte art. GTFO might be a stretch however!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Venue as well would be a major issue.
                      You want a lot of footfall traffic
                      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                      Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                      https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

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                        #12
                        Coffee/GTFO imo.
                        If it gets off ground, I will donate some hours out of pure boredom/goodwill, assuming you can make me useful.
                        X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                        Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

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                          #13
                          Coffee shops are an interesting idea. They seem to becoming more popular since the recession. It seems as if the main reason is people are having more business meetings there and instead of the 3 course meal with the tab on the company account they are going for a coffee and a sandwich.

                          In 08/09 the main chains in the UK increased their locations by 47% according to the BBC.



                          Why do you think now is a good time to open a coffee shop in Dublin and have you a business plan outline and a competitor analysis?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dealers Choice View Post
                            Why do you think now is a good time to open a coffee shop in Dublin and have you a business plan outline and a competitor analysis?
                            Now is a good time purely because I'm free to do it now! I haven't done anything bar back of the envelope calculations of how many coffees per day you'd have to shift to make a profit to date. That's the purpose of this thread!

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                              #15
                              will there be dohnuts?

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                                #16
                                Will you bake them? :P

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                                  #17
                                  I can put you in touch with these guys if it's any help.

                                  They roast their own beans to a very high standard,the owner has a few international coffee competition medals.

                                  He also runs a similar business here in the Saturday market in Waterford.He's mobile though,he covers festivals and events aswell.
                                  Official Head Marshall of Waterford Gay Pride Festival 2015

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                                    #18
                                    Something like this would do the job imo.

                                    Find Commercial Property For Sale in Ireland. Search 4,212 commercial properties for sale in Ireland on Daft.ie now.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I've a mate in Colombia if you are looking for some beans. He wouldn't have a clue what is what though.
                                      Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Icarus152 View Post
                                        I can put you in touch with these guys if it's any help.

                                        They roast their own beans to a very high standard,the owner has a few international coffee competition medals.

                                        He also runs a similar business here in the Saturday market in Waterford.He's mobile though,he covers festivals and events aswell.
                                        Sweet! Thats the coffee sorted so.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                          Something like this would do the job imo.

                                          http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=82899
                                          Lease Term: 4 years 9 month, actually that might be to do with the rates.
                                          Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

                                          Comment


                                            #22

                                            No Joe for You!
                                            b) USP
                                            Good honest coffee, no bullshit. The idea of coffee or gtfo is without sounding too fucking stupid brilliant in its simplicity. The idea of ironic coffee snobery would attract a fair few people. There are loads of places in the US where the curmudgeonly owner/boss is an attraction.

                                            c) Best location
                                            Students, office staff, and god help me hipsters are your prime demographic imo
                                            Around georges arcarde area, trinity, dame st stephens green are your prime locations imo
                                            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                            Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                            https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by RasTa View Post
                                              Lease Term: 4 years 9 month
                                              negotiable! They'll be the first ones told to GTFO!

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                                                #24
                                                In, assuming we can invest small chunks for not too much €€€.

                                                Hopefully the IPB game of 2016 will be a €5k buyin affair, after we take Europe by storm and sell to Chinese investors

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                                                  #25
                                                  Footfall is absolutely key. You need to turnover a sick amount of €2 drinks a day to make much money.

                                                  Average spend per head on a saturday in the cinema (with sicko margins you couldn't dream of) was 3.50 - 4.00. That's with a staff of 9 people on tills and maybe 4 support staff. The pace with which you turnover customers is also absolutely essential.

                                                  Coffee/gtfo needs to be barebones, needs to capture trade, needs to be located somewhere where this can be done, and needs to be lightning quick.

                                                  Any idea on start up costs? Margins? I'd spend some time figuring out a b/e target including a wage before I even dreamt too far ahead tbh.

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                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                    Footfall is absolutely key. You need to turnover a sick amount of €2 drinks a day to make much money.

                                                    Average spend per head on a saturday in the cinema (with sicko margins you couldn't dream of) was 3.50 - 4.00. That's with a staff of 9 people on tills and maybe 4 support staff. The pace with which you turnover customers is also absolutely essential.

                                                    Coffee/gtfo needs to be barebones, needs to capture trade, needs to be located somewhere where this can be done, and needs to be lightning quick.

                                                    Any idea on start up costs? Margins? I'd spend some time figuring out a b/e target including a wage before I even dreamt too far ahead tbh.
                                                    Research suggests cost of sales for a coffee is like 25%.

                                                    Let's say lease and bills cost you 1.5k. If you sell 2k coffees a week, thats 4k monies, which is 2.5k after the above. Knock some salaries off that and you're still left with profit. Easy game!

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                                                      #27
                                                      Also, without being Buzz Killington
                                                      is it possible the GTFO may cause trouble?
                                                      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                      Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                      https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                        Also, without being Buzz Killington
                                                        is it possible the GTFO may cause trouble?
                                                        I'm sure there's an unpalatable coffee bean that starts with 'F'

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                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                          Also, without being Buzz Killington
                                                          is it possible the GTFO may cause trouble?
                                                          To some, yes, but it is also an attraction to others as is highlights the simplistic style of the coffee shop.

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                                                            #30
                                                            I will learn to make donuts.
                                                            <3 Donuts.

                                                            Will name them after IPB'ers.

                                                            A dozen bubbleking's coming right up.
                                                            X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                                                            Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                                                            $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Sometime Happy Dude View Post
                                                              I will learn to make donuts.
                                                              <3 Donuts.

                                                              Will name them after IPB'ers.

                                                              A dozen bubbleking's coming right up.
                                                              contains 4
                                                              People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                              Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                              https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                There's a guy on Paul Street in Cork who makes donuts from scratch in two minutes while you wait - doesn't look too tricky but the equipment probably costs a nice whack.

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                                                                  #33
                                                                  The name is brilliant. Fair dues.

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                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                    contains 4
                                                                    and are rich tea biscuits.
                                                                    Is that how you crash a wedding? yes it is, Bionic Barry, yes it is.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                      Research suggests cost of sales for a coffee is like 25%.

                                                                      Let's say lease and bills cost you 1.5k. If you sell 2k coffees a week, thats 4k monies, which is 2.5k after the above. Knock some salaries off that and you're still left with profit. Easy game!
                                                                      Open 7:30- 6 a day, 5 days a week = 52.5 hour a week.
                                                                      8 an hour constant sales, but I imagine there's plenty of hours in a day when trade slips to 0 sales.

                                                                      The idea of making it simply coffee is a usp because nobody does it, because IMO nobody can afford to do it, because the ancillary sales are absolutely vital to keep cash-flow up.

                                                                      If you could sort out some info regarding expected costs etc I'd happily take a look through later and give you some black/White advice on it.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                        contains 4
                                                                        Was thinking the exact same tbh, though a higher number.

                                                                        Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                        There's a guy on Paul Street in Cork who makes donuts from scratch in two minutes while you wait - doesn't look too tricky but the equipment probably costs a nice whack.
                                                                        Saw some thing yesterday about a mini donuts franchise.
                                                                        Anyhow, isn't meant to be just coffee?

                                                                        I have long lamented the lack of proper donut shops in this country. It says something that they aren't deemed profitable. I remember there was a dunkin donuts on O'Connell Street (and outside the square, Tallaght) years ago.

                                                                        Have a feeling the coffee market is pretty well tied up, especially with commercial rents as retardo as they are.
                                                                        X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                                                                        Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                                                                        $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                                                          To some, yes, but it is also an attraction to others as is highlights the simplistic style of the coffee shop.
                                                                          The people who would be turned off won't understand it imo.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                            There's a guy on Paul Street in Cork who makes donuts from scratch in two minutes while you wait - doesn't look too tricky but the equipment probably costs a nice whack.
                                                                            deep fat fryer
                                                                            dough mix
                                                                            donut cutter
                                                                            drumsticks
                                                                            sugar/topping
                                                                            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                            Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                            https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                              deep fat fryer
                                                                              dough mix
                                                                              donut cutter
                                                                              Coffee flavouring
                                                                              drumsticks
                                                                              sugar/topping
                                                                              .
                                                                              X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                                                                              Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                                                                              $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                                                The people who would be turned off won't understand it imo.
                                                                                Yup, they'll all walk in and say "Can I have a orange-mocha-frappachino? And I'll try two GTFO's please."

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  in, probably just as a silent investor though
                                                                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                    in, probably just as a silent investor though
                                                                                    but you promised mad business skillz!

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                      The idea of making it simply coffee is a usp because nobody does it, because IMO nobody can afford to do it, because the ancillary sales are absolutely vital to keep cash-flow up.
                                                                                      Someone (possibly here) came up with the idea of going to bakery students/recent graduates and giving them a sale-or-return deal for their stuff in the shop.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                        in, probably just as a silent investor though
                                                                                        You can be part of the parent company of silent investors.

                                                                                        Coffee/STFU
                                                                                        X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                                                                                        Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                                                                                        $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                          but you promised mad business skillz!
                                                                                          I'll help with financial projections and funding etc if you want, I have no clue about how to run a coffee shop

                                                                                          I do like donuts however
                                                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            One thing you will need to get right from the outset is the decision-making process, last thing you want is trying to get 25 IPB'ers to agree every time you want to source a new coffee bean or whatever - basically leave you free to make operational decisions without a bunch of us gimps annoying the fuck out of you

                                                                                            also, if it's to be done right, proper and regular reporting to the stakeholders (doesn't have to be a massive job, just KPIs and a bit of commentary)
                                                                                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Ah yeah that's a given.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                Ah yeah that's a given.
                                                                                                might also want to start on the first draft of the 'barred' list
                                                                                                "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  The name is brilliant btw. But I would have thought that high rents in Dublin where there is high footfall will mean this just cant work unless executed brilliantly...
                                                                                                  Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                    Someone (possibly here) came up with the idea of going to bakery students/recent graduates and giving them a sale-or-return deal for their stuff in the shop.
                                                                                                    DIT has a bakery school, we should use them.

                                                                                                    Hunter S Thompson 1937-2005 - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      If your serious about this you need to do the prep work before you approach investors or just to see if your idea can become a reality.

                                                                                                      The first step is getting a business plan.

                                                                                                      Business Plan Outline

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                        might also want to start on the first draft of the 'barred' list
                                                                                                        Barredistas
                                                                                                        http://mobro.co/zuroph
                                                                                                        donate to my hairy lip!

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Dealers Choice View Post
                                                                                                          If your serious about this you need to do the prep work before you approach investors or just to see if your idea can become a reality.

                                                                                                          The first step is getting a business plan.

                                                                                                          Business Plan Outline
                                                                                                          Ugh...that's why I'm here asking IPB...I want the business nerds to handle the business...I'll handle the coffee!

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            The big thing is getting the cost of overheads down on paper, rent/rates/public liability/raw materials/services/wages/advertising etc.

                                                                                                            Once you have a pretty good idea of the monthly outgoings over say, an 18month period you can have an idea of what kind of investment you will be looking for and an idea on what kind of returns you will be projecting.

                                                                                                            I would be very interested to help part finance this, same deal as RD, silent !
                                                                                                            This too shall pass.

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              OK I'll get a proper stab at the numbers done as soon as a I can.

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                ...
                                                                                                                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  The place you are looking at is obviously crying out for tenants. Get Raoul to do the negotiations on it and they'll probably end up paying you to have it occupied.

                                                                                                                  I realise the usp of a coffee shop that just sells coffee, but in reality coffee shops make a lot of their money out of the peripherals.
                                                                                                                  You could go pretentious and offer places in the shop for the farmers market type products to be sold within the shop. Some of the stuff is of great quality and it is annoying when you can only get it one day a week.

                                                                                                                  In terms of location obviously footfall is important, but also location:
                                                                                                                  Is it close to major train stations/bus terminals etc. - will people have picked up their morning coffee before walking past your shop?
                                                                                                                  Lunch time - is it close to large business footfall, again is there a competitor that is closer?

                                                                                                                  For me, I don't like the location in Temple Bar, I'd far prefer a start as a mobile operation operating around the IFSC - is it possible to incorporate a mobile operation into a B&M coffee shop?

                                                                                                                  As for the name- can't see it being a problem. It's not going to be registered as get the fuck out, just gtfo.
                                                                                                                  People who would complain about it wouldn't understand what GTFO stands for anyway.

                                                                                                                  I'd be more then happy to do whatever I could to get this up and running, I am moving to England in September so wont be around, but can certainly help out with the formalities of setting it up as a business - it really is very simple process for the most part.

                                                                                                                  Also if I were you i'd register the .com straight away, only costs a few quid, but better get it now then have some cnut try and blackmail you in the future.
                                                                                                                  Double-decker bus enthusiast

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Rufio View Post

                                                                                                                    For me, I don't like the location in Temple Bar, I'd far prefer a start as a mobile operation operating around the IFSC - is it possible to incorporate a mobile operation into a B&M coffee shop?
                                                                                                                    Problem there is Dublin City Council has only a handful of dedicated trading areas and they all have massive waiting lists. I've been on to the LUAS people about having a Piaggio Ape at Connolly Luas (would print money) but they say there's no tender there and that's all there is to it.

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      In / no input
                                                                                                                      Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                                        Problem there is Dublin City Council has only a handful of dedicated trading areas and they all have massive waiting lists. I've been on to the LUAS people about having a Piaggio Ape at Connolly Luas (would print money) but they say there's no tender there and that's all there is to it.
                                                                                                                        You'd be surprised about what a few letters to politicians would do in an instance like this.

                                                                                                                        Would be worth your while to send a letter to a few involved in the area of job creation and then your local td asking them to bring it up in the dail.

                                                                                                                        - Along the lines of, i'm trying to create jobs, i don't want to be on the dole. Bureaucratic red tape not allowing enterprise to flourish, Ireland needs flexibility in this time of crises etc.

                                                                                                                        Might be worth a go anyway.

                                                                                                                        From all the business books I've read the one thing that i've realised is that no only means no if it's followed by being hung up on/ assaulted, a standard no is really only a "you haven't convinced me to say yes yet". There are always solutions to problems that seem insurmountable.

                                                                                                                        edit: I probably wont be able to put up any money but i'm more then happy to do whatever I can to get this up and running without any form of remuneration.
                                                                                                                        Double-decker bus enthusiast

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