Irish Poker Boards
Register Arcade FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Hold 'Em
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19-01-17, 21:58   #1
Kie Diddy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 156
TPTK facing turn shove

$300 live 2-day tourney; 62 players from this flight get paid and will go through to day 2; about 150 of this flight left (with about 60 already through to day 2 from other day ones)

Blinds 200/800/1600

Hero is on BTN with AK playing approx. 100k (62bb)

Folds to hero and we open to 3500.

SB folds and BB 3-bets to 11,000 BB is also playing approx. 100k

Hero has been playing relatively aggressive , opening a lot of pots from LP. That said, villain has only been moved to table approx. 2 orbits ago, so hasn't seen much of this, and villain has not played a single pot to this point. Villain is an early 30 looking guy - as is hero...

do we just 4-bet get it in? Against someone I considered aggro in any sense of the word this would be my line; but I hadn't seen this guy play a hand yet and it just felt like he wasn't messing about - my guess was that he's prob not 3-betting 99 or AJ - TT+ and AQ+ seems likely...?

I decided to flat and play in position since we were both deep-ish

Flop: AQ3 rainbow

Villain leads for 20k. Seems like a weird spot to lead so big; AA and KK (which I also block) seem unlikely if he's decent at all imo.

I decided to flat as jamming (my only real raise option) seemed to achieve little as if called I'm presumably crushed, or chopping. Plus, given I flatted a big raise pre, I felt like he wouldn't pull the trigger with a random 67, or TJ suited type hand - if he did just so happen to have one of those hands ...

Turn: blank (6 I think)

Villain shoves 72k into pot of 64k.

??? we cover by about 5k (3bb) - thoughts on any/all streets welcome
Kie Diddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-17, 17:21   #2
Gholimoli
Irish Terrorist
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 753
given the 3bet range you have given villain ,which is TT+ and AQ+ (i don't agree with that range but that isn't the point right now) then :

his value hands:
QQ 3 combos
AA 1 combos
AQ 6 combos
AK 6 combos

given that i agree that it would be a really strange bet with AA and QQ in that spot ,we can defo discount them somewhat .Same with AQ really.

keeping in mind that alot of players like to 3bet A rags as they have blockers,then that adds alot of A2,A4,A5 type hands to his range .
yes it also adds A3 and A6 too which you are behind to but again going by bet sizing ,i would lean towards him not having a monster(two pair or better) which makes this a call for me.

preflop ,i don't mind 4bet jamming at all as u have blockers to his AA,KK and do well versus anything else he may have.
post flop ,i would play as you and just call and call the jam too.
his pot bet sizing on the flop where most hands are either way ahead of him or way behind don't really make sense especially in a 3bet pot.
Gholimoli is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Old 17-02-17, 17:37   #3
Flushdraw
The Gamesmaster
 
Flushdraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Swieqi, Sunny Malta
Posts: 22,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gholimoli View Post
given the 3bet range you have given villain ,which is TT+ and AQ+ (i don't agree with that range but that isn't the point right now) then :

his value hands:
QQ 3 combos
AA 1 combos
AQ 6 combos
AK 6 combos

given that i agree that it would be a really strange bet with AA and QQ in that spot ,we can defo discount them somewhat .Same with AQ really.

keeping in mind that alot of players like to 3bet A rags as they have blockers,then that adds alot of A2,A4,A5 type hands to his range .
yes it also adds A3 and A6 too which you are behind to but again going by bet sizing ,i would lean towards him not having a monster(two pair or better) which makes this a call for me.

preflop ,i don't mind 4bet jamming at all as u have blockers to his AA,KK and do well versus anything else he may have.
post flop ,i would play as you and just call and call the jam too.
his pot bet sizing on the flop where most hands are either way ahead of him or way behind don't really make sense especially in a 3bet pot.
Much prefer 4bet call than 4bet jam.

Not sure why there's only a value range assigned to the villain here. I'd imagine that that my 3bet raising range from the blinds in this spot is made up of more bluffs than value hands tbh.
Flushdraw is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Old 17-02-17, 18:28   #4
Hectorjelly
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,614
Get it in pre, you're on the button so ranges are wide. As played snap call turn.
Hectorjelly is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Thanks From:
Old 17-02-17, 18:39   #5
peterswellman
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flushdraw View Post
Much prefer 4bet call than 4bet jam.

Not sure why there's only a value range assigned to the villain here. I'd imagine that that my 3bet raising range from the blinds in this spot is made up of more bluffs than value hands tbh.
Agree with this.

I'd 100% but 4-bet inducing here 25k should be perfect. It's just one of those spots where we should be opening a bunch, so we need some four bet bluffs as well as value hands.

Im calling now too.
peterswellman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-17, 20:24   #6
Kie Diddy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 156
Getting 60bb in pre with AKo seems a bit high variance to me? Not saying it's not +EV to 4 bet /call and or jam, but if one assumes an edge vs field then flipping for 120bb doesn't seem most effective way to realize it?

If I had seen villain play even a few hands I think I'd have a better feel for the situation..in the end, I passed. I think in these type of live tourneys the avg player plays more tight & more honest than one might expect, and while not impossible, total blast-off here still seems unlikely to me.

All that said, my hand is super strong for this spot and I think I like a call as played, as in retrospect this feels like monsters under the bed syndrome at play.
Kie Diddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-17, 11:38   #7
LTL
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kie Diddy View Post
Getting 60bb in pre with AKo seems a bit high variance to me? Not saying it's not +EV to 4 bet /call and or jam, but if one assumes an edge vs field then flipping for 120bb doesn't seem most effective way to realize it?
4betting/calling is the only option here in my opinion. Clicking it back to 25/27k is inviting some spazzy 5bet shoves. Expect a decent reg to 5bet shove here light enough as itís just a great spot to do so. You should have a much wider 4bet/folding range here than usual with hands like A2s-A5s as itís just perfect for it especially if thereís a dynamic built button vs blinds.

The real issue I have with this line of thinking is the avoidance of higher variance spots with a huge range advantage. The advantage you have in the tournament should you win playing a 125bb stack approaching a bubble cannot be over stated. You can drive the action pre bubble opening so much more liberally against restricted villains and put yourself in an excellent position post bubble. By getting it in youíve also shown that youíre not actively avoiding flips so expect players in live tournaments to just allow you walk over them. Turning down these kind of spots is a big mistake in my opinion.

As played Iím snapping off turn too. Expect to see the same hand a lot with spazzes in there too as youíve completely under-repped your hand.
LTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-17, 16:53   #8
Hectorjelly
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,614
Great post.
Hectorjelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks From:
Reply

  Irish Poker Boards > Poker > Poker Theory, Strategy and Rulings > Hold 'Em

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:20.