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    Calling any 2 random hands

    Just something that came up last night in a friendly house game. We were playing .10/.20 with mandatory .50 straddle 6 handed. We let one guy re straddle his stack which was around €5, and then the next guy wanted to straddle his stack (€20ish) so we said go for it! The rest of us were around 100bbs deep so mt question is what is the bottom of our calling off range vs 2 random hands? I was thinking A9+ but wasn't sure.

    Sorry if its a silly question and would rarely see it, but I found it interesting at the time and just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on it.

    #2
    poker evaluation and enumeration software. Contribute to andrewprock/pokerstove development by creating an account on GitHub.


    Great tool for messing around with ranges.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by tenbob View Post
      http://www.pokerstove.com/

      Great tool for messing around with ranges.
      thanks bob, i know that but this has a but of a dynamic to it which im talking more about.

      Comment


        #4
        This is just a maths question. You'd be better off asking how to work it out than what the answer is. You need to know how many players are at the table. Basically the more people behind you the tighter you have to be. It's a really simple question if you are the BB.


        Actually here's a quick quiz - to make things easy you are BB; assume all stacks are equal and there are no blinds.

        What % of equity do you need to make the call breakeven?

        Should you call with the following hands:

        Q7o
        22
        88
        52s
        A2o
        k2s

        Comment


          #5
          Your cheating f you look at your hand here. Call blind for the craic

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
            This is just a maths question. You'd be better off asking how to work it out than what the answer is. You need to know how many players are at the table. Basically the more people behind you the tighter you have to be. It's a really simple question if you are the BB.


            Actually here's a quick quiz - to make things easy you are BB; assume all stacks are equal and there are no blinds.

            What % of equity do you need to make the call breakeven?

            Should you call with the following hands:

            Q7o
            22
            88
            52s
            A2o
            k2s
            I assume 8s and mabey A2?

            Comment


              #7
              Quick mess wih stove based on what range i would call off with vs 2 random hands, considering in a rake free game with equal stacks we need 34% equity to be a long term winner.

              I'm actually way ahead of what i need calling off with any suited/any broadway/any ace/any pair. In otherwords while people trend towards playing a tighter range in games like this, we should generally play WAYYYY looser if we are rolled for it.

              equity win tie pots won pots tied
              Hand 0: 30.395% 29.07% 01.32% 5035371 229473.17 { random }
              Hand 1: 30.389% 29.06% 01.33% 5034195 229675.00 { random }
              Hand 2: 39.215% 37.84% 01.37% 6555156 237562.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A3o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

              Edit : Take some of the muck out of that (the 72s/84s type hands) and my equity go's way up.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by tenbob View Post
                Quick mess wih stove based on what range i would call off with vs 2 random hands, considering in a rake free game with equal stacks we need 34% equity to be a long term winner.

                I'm actually way ahead of what i need calling off with any suited/any broadway/any ace/any pair. In otherwords while people trend towards playing a tighter range in games like this, we should generally play WAYYYY looser if we are rolled for it.

                equity win tie pots won pots tied
                Hand 0: 30.395% 29.07% 01.32% 5035371 229473.17 { random }
                Hand 1: 30.389% 29.06% 01.33% 5034195 229675.00 { random }
                Hand 2: 39.215% 37.84% 01.37% 6555156 237562.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A3o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

                Edit : Take some of the muck out of that (the 72s/84s type hands) and my equity go's way up.
                So this makes it profitable to call off with Q2s for example?? Doesn't seem right!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                  So this makes it profitable to call off with Q2s for example?? Doesn't seem right!
                  We are talking about ranges here rather than specific hands. You know the difference ?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                    So this makes it profitable to call off with Q2s for example?? Doesn't seem right!
                    No he's doing it wrong, he is using the simulator to call it off with a range that INCLUDES Q2s

                    edit: wrong might be the wrong word
                    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 13-03-12, 01:14.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                      This is just a maths question. You'd be better off asking how to work it out than what the answer is. You need to know how many players are at the table. Basically the more people behind you the tighter you have to be. It's a really simple question if you are the BB.


                      Actually here's a quick quiz - to make things easy you are BB; assume all stacks are equal and there are no blinds.

                      What % of equity do you need to make the call breakeven?

                      Should you call with the following hands:

                      Q7o
                      22
                      88
                      52s
                      A2o
                      k2s
                      Is this if someone just shoves into you and there is no further betting or 2 people shove into you? obv disregarding ICM etc etc?

                      based on 2 people

                      Q7o = 38%
                      22 = 29%
                      88 = 57%
                      52s = 26%
                      A2o = 41%
                      k2s = 40.7%
                      Last edited by Bubbleking; 13-03-12, 01:14.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by tenbob View Post
                        We are talking about ranges here rather than specific hands. You know the difference ?
                        ya sorry misread!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                          So this makes it profitable to call off with Q2s for example?? Doesn't seem right!
                          Q2s is right on the edge

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                            Q2s is right on the edge
                            bottom of range! gots it. so its profitable to call off pretty loose here?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                              Is this if someone just shoves into you and there is no further betting or 2 people shove into you? obv disregarding ICM etc etc?

                              based on 2 people

                              Q7o = 38%
                              22 = 29%
                              88 = 57%
                              52s = 26%
                              A2o = 41%
                              k2s = 40.7%
                              Haha, I meant to say that you can't use pokerstove for that because it's cheating, but you have managed to use poker stove and get it wrong. All of those percentages are wrong.

                              Q7o is the exact middle ranking hand in poker, so it's 33%

                              I even know how you made the mistake

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                but you have managed to use poker stove and get it wrong.
                                that in itself is impressive :P what are the full numbers HJ?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Ya, ok, in a perfect world where hands like this play out all the time, then I play that exact range every time, in fact i could teach a chimp to do it and go drink beer.

                                  In game things are a lot different, and calling off my stack with Q2s is never going to happen regardless of theory. Having a good think about this, my in game range is all pairs, all aces, all suited kings, all broadway cards. That changes things quite a bit, and is probably a leak, but thats simply human nature.

                                  Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                                  19,279,200 games 10.827 secs 1,780,659 games/sec

                                  Board:
                                  Dead:

                                  equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                  Hand 0: 28.330% 27.17% 01.16% 5237690 224115.17 { random }
                                  Hand 1: 28.334% 27.17% 01.16% 5238557 223978.67 { random }
                                  Hand 2: 43.337% 42.05% 01.28% 8107449 247705.83 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by tglynn View Post
                                    bottom of range! gots it. so its profitable to call off pretty loose here?
                                    You need 33% equity to be break even. That's because you will triple up when you win, but only win one time in three. So anything over 33% is a call. If you have people behind you you need to be much tighter as you then face the possibility of being overcalled by a far better hand. That's actually a complicated problem as other people will play differently.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                      Haha, I meant to say that you can't use pokerstove for that because it's cheating, but you have managed to use poker stove and get it wrong. All of those percentages are wrong.

                                      Q7o is the exact middle ranking hand in poker, so it's 33%

                                      I even know how you made the mistake
                                      lolz.

                                      I still snap fold Q7o in game though. Mainly because variance is a bitch.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        Haha, I meant to say that you can't use pokerstove for that because it's cheating, but you have managed to use poker stove and get it wrong. All of those percentages are wrong.

                                        Q7o is the exact middle ranking hand in poker, so it's 33%

                                        I even know how you made the mistake
                                        yeah so do I - was looking at it thinking it couldnt be right

                                        how do you exclude 2 cards from the random selections?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by tenbob View Post
                                          Ya, ok, in a perfect world where hands like this play out all the time, then I play that exact range every time, in fact i could teach a chimp to do it and go drink beer.

                                          In game things are a lot different, and calling off my stack with Q2s is never going to happen regardless of theory. Having a good think about this, my in game range is all pairs, all aces, all suited kings, all broadway cards. That changes things quite a bit, and is probably a leak, but thats simply human nature.
                                          The whole point of discussions like this is so that you play properly, and not based on what you incorrectly "feel" is good.

                                          You don't need to call with hands that are close to breakeven if you don't want to, you don't give up any equity by doing so.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            This thread is very useful for a lot of players tbh. Generally when you get an online player at a cash table that is playing 90/80 or something daft, the whole table usually nits it up with the one decent reg taking all the flips. These players donk off their money so quick its usually terribad to wait for good cards, your QJ is the nuts, play it.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                              You need 33% equity to be break even. That's because you will triple up when you win, but only win one time in three. So anything over 33% is a call. If you have people behind you you need to be much tighter as you then face the possibility of being overcalled by a far better hand. That's actually a complicated problem as other people will play differently.
                                              And with the players behind we have the added factor of them reshoving if we flat! Making us tighten our range quite a bit i would assume? I was first to act so had 3 players behind me, what type of range is needed here to call/jam?

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                The whole point of discussions like this is so that you play properly, and not based on what you incorrectly "feel" is good.

                                                You don't need to call with hands that are close to breakeven if you don't want to, you don't give up any equity by doing so.
                                                Agreed, my experience tells me though, people post way better than they play.

                                                I'm just being honest about it.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                  yeah so do I - was looking at it thinking it couldnt be right

                                                  how do you exclude 2 cards from the random selections?
                                                  What cards do you want to exclude?

                                                  The mistake you made was to use the Enumerate All option, which takes ages to get to the right figure, but is slightly more accurate than the monte carlo method, which is pretty much immediate.

                                                  I'm such a nerd I sicken myself sometimes.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                    What cards do you want to exclude?

                                                    The mistake you made was to use the Enumerate All option, which takes ages to get to the right figure, but is slightly more accurate than the monte carlo method, which is pretty much immediate.

                                                    I'm such a nerd I sicken myself sometimes.

                                                    Enumerate all can show you just how sick variance can be in poker though

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by tenbob View Post
                                                      Agreed, my experience tells me though, people post way better than they play.

                                                      I'm just being honest about it.
                                                      Yeah, but you do your best to bring the two into line. Once you know the right answer you have no excuse to deviate from it from when you are playing. The same situations occur constantly in poker, it's a constant struggle to play as well as possible. When you are actually playing you have time constraints, when posting you can take as much time as you want and use software to help.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by tenbob View Post
                                                        Hand 2: 39.215% 37.84% 01.37% 6555156 237562.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A3o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
                                                        I think you've set that range all wrong. Too much weighting to suited cards.
                                                        Suited hands have speculative value. Seeing a flop and getting more money in when we have a flush or draw to a flush.
                                                        In all-in situations, they don't add much equity. And the kicker is much more important.

                                                        Take all the kings in the range above, fior example.
                                                        You are calling K2s+, but only KTo+. Why?
                                                        In an AIPF situation, I'd expect K9 to do a lot better than K3s. It just has more equity verses a massive chuck of his range. All low to mid hands like 6,7. Mid pairs. Most of his kings. The 9 plays so much more than suited cards.

                                                        If I was going to widen a range for suited cards in this spot, it would prob be only by one or two ranks.
                                                        I haven't stoved this, so maybe somebody could see how it does for me.
                                                        My range would be:

                                                        [A2+, K5+, Q7+, J9+, 44+]
                                                        Last edited by Mellor; 13-03-12, 06:21.

                                                        Comment

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