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Common Tricky Flop Spot

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    Common Tricky Flop Spot

    Not a specific hand but a situation I often find myself in which I struggle to play profitable.

    I know the hand is very read dependant but for the sake of this situation lets just say that the villian is a capable lag, who is capable of floating flops with air.

    4th level of a live tourney with blinds at 100/200.

    4 way limped pot with hero sitting in the SB on a stack of 5,000. Villian is on the button and covers.

    Hero 6s9s.

    Flop. 2d 5d 9h. (pot 800)

    Hero leads for 525.

    Folded to villian on button who flats.

    Turn Js....... Hero?

    I'm looking for advice on my flop play and how I should approach turn??
    C/C turn seems pretty spewy when im most likely check folding most rivers, yet check folding to a LAG seems fairly weak?

    Just a spot i find myself consistently playing badly and would appreciate advice.

    #2
    I have no advice to offer but its also a situation I encounter a lot and i'd also be interested in people's thoughts

    i might suggest a check raise on the flop might be better than the donk bet, on the assumption that LP LAG will most likely make a stab at the pot with any two cards. prob is that once you are called and encounter any resistance then most of the deck is going to leave you in a bad place on future streets

    Comment


      #3
      As you say this is pretty situation dependent, but my general opinion on the spot is as follows...

      I don't like leading the flop as it just creates a situation where you're playing a bloated pot out of position with top pair no kicker.

      What is your reasoning for betting this flop? What hands do you expect will call you, will any better hands fold, are you value-betting or "protecting" your hand? In reality, there is a ton of shit turn cards for our hand - over 50% of turn cards give us a difficult desicion and leave us likely folding to a bet.

      In a 4way pot I see no real value in betting here. You have a hand with good showdown value that is semi-disguised if you check the flop, which also controls the pot size with such shallow effective stacks.

      What's the difference between 9s6s here and like KJo if you take this line? You still c/f most turn cards... but with your hand you have actual showdown value so it's important you don't ruin that by skewing villains range towards hands that have you beat or have lots of equity against you by leading this flop.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by 8611 View Post
        I have no advice to offer but its also a situation I encounter a lot and i'd also be interested in people's thoughts

        i might suggest a check raise on the flop might be better than the donk bet, on the assumption that LP LAG will most likely make a stab at the pot with any two cards. prob is that once you are called and encounter any resistance then most of the deck is going to leave you in a bad place on future streets
        I strongly disagree with c/r on the flop here. This obviously turns your hand into a complete bluff...

        Leading this flop is definitely > check-raising.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Alfie View Post
          I strongly disagree with c/r on the flop here. This obviously turns your hand into a complete bluff...

          Leading this flop is definitely > check-raising.
          well I agree its shite, but I also hate simply calling down. as you point out over 50% of turn cards are shite, check raising gets us decent value for our hand (which is likely ahead at this point), limits the prospect of any turn card and better informs us of his likely holding

          but I agree its also shite so i'd be interested to see some ideas on what is optimum here

          Comment


            #6
            Fwiw I'm happy to fold this preflop. There are no antes in play, you have 25bb and will be oop for the rest of the hand.

            As played I c/c or c/f depending on bet size on flop(I don't like leading into a multi way pot with shallow stacks and a weak hand). C/f on turn if the hand doesn't improve. You beat little but a draw and even though it's a draw heavy board your stack is too fragile to take a knock. There are much better spots.

            It's spewy to get into this spot imo and should be simply avoided by folding pre.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by 8611 View Post
              well I agree its shite, but I also hate simply calling down. as you point out over 50% of turn cards are shite, check raising gets us decent value for our hand (which is likely ahead at this point), limits the prospect of any turn card and better informs us of his likely holding

              but I agree its also shite so i'd be interested to see some ideas on what is optimum here

              This hand is far too weak to c/r imo. If you c/r this weak, what do you do on the turn? Ship it? c/f after putting in a large % of your stack? If he comes over the top on flop what do you do?

              c/c or c/f on flop are the only lines that seem to make sense imo. But as I said above it seems like a standard fold pre.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                but I agree its also shite so i'd be interested to see some ideas on what is optimum here
                Well, I'm pretty sure folding pre is optimal here but considering the OP related to this general type of situation I didn't think responding with just that advice would benefit anyone.

                As someone else said, c/c or c/f are both fine on this board, it just becomes more villain-specific at this point...
                Last edited by Alfie; 25-08-10, 18:00. Reason: Quoted wrong person...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Alfie View Post
                  Well, I'm pretty sure folding pre is optimal here
                  this is true

                  Comment


                    #10
                    C/f the turn. Preflop is fine.
                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                      C/f the turn. Preflop is fine.
                      Do you donk flop?
                      "I believe the target of anything in life should be to do it so well that it becomes art. You read a book and the writer touches something in you that you would not have brought out of yourself. He makes you discover something interesting in your life. If you are living like an animal, what is the point? What makes the day interesting is that we try to transform it into something that is close to art." - Arsene Wenger

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If we are saying that he is a capable lag this means he will call you on the flop here with alot worse than your hand because he also knows any check turn by you is nearly always a complete give up and in turn makes floats against lead outs like this pretty profitable,as long as you know which cards on turn are correct to bluff at, even a 2 on the turn and you lead again its still easy for villain to raise you here and this will make you fold also!

                        Check the flop your just never getting your stack in like so why inflate the pot and give yourself a chance to be bluffed out, plus so what if it checks around n like over card comes just let it go,move on, plenty better spots in a tourny with it being still in the early stages!

                        Maybe you should try outplaying other ppl who take the same lead as you here maybe that will help you realise what is the best play in these situations!

                        Love the old 96 sooted defo a call pre
                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                          If we are saying that he is a capable lag this means he will call you on the flop here with alot worse than your hand because he also knows any check turn by you is nearly always a complete give up and in turn makes floats against lead outs like this pretty profitable,as long as you know which cards on turn are correct to bluff at, even a 2 on the turn and you lead again its still easy for villain to raise you here and this will make you fold also!

                          Check the flop your just never getting your stack in like so why inflate the pot and give yourself a chance to be bluffed out, plus so what if it checks around n like over card comes just let it go,move on, plenty better spots in a tourny with it being still in the early stages!

                          Maybe you should try outplaying other ppl who take the same lead as you here maybe that will help you realise what is the best play in these situations!

                          Love the old 96 sooted defo a call pre

                          Really like this advice, appreciate it. The reason I lead the flop is to protect a vunerable hand but as said it's not like im super strong and don't know how to approach most turns so effectively inflating a pot OOP with no plan for the turn.

                          Hate the idea of folding pre here, as i play a fairly LAG style reasonable ok playing a lot of flops and the fact that this, for me, is usualy a live $60 less tourney, many of the regs are very spewy post flop players and i feel a hand like 6 9 suited has merits in a limped pot even from the SB.

                          Appreciate the feedback anyway.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm folding pre.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                              I'm folding pre.
                              Thats because your a nit!
                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                Thats because your a nit!
                                Shhhhhhh, no one is supposed to know that!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Check call the flop and re-evaluate on the turn (card, playing styles and history, bet size, etc)

                                  If you don't have a plan preflop, for what you will do OOP if you hit top pair on the flop, against the players in question, then just fold pre.
                                  Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Shove pre.
                                    "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I'd pretty much always check-call a few streets here without ever leading out. I might give up on the river depending on the player, or to a Ace or diamond on the turn again depending on the player. By check-calling the flop you're putting a lot of presure on him on the turn as most cards will scare him with straight and flush draws being out there. If he has a legit hand you should/might get him to check the turn, whereas if it's a bluff he will (mostly) have to bet the turn again regardless of what comes which makes check-calling +ev for two streets anyway. River betting/calling would be completely based on reads.

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