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    130+bb deep

    This hand is from the 4k gtd 6max deep stacks game on stars with half hour blinds...

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 22 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    saw flop

    UTG (t6320)
    MP (t7669)
    CO (t3000)
    Button (t10740)
    SB (t6930)
    Hero (BB) (t6780)

    Hero's M: 90.40

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 4, 4
    1 fold, MP bets t100, 2 folds, SB calls t75, Hero calls t50

    Flop: (t300) 4, K, 8 (3 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks

    Turn: (t300) Q (3 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets t200, MP calls t200, 1 fold

    River: (t700) 2 (2 players)
    Hero bets t550, MP raises to t6450,

    Hero ???


    Villain snap reraised on river leaving me with 30 behind if I call.


    How was the hand played up until the river?

    Just wondering is this a fold or call/shove?

    #2
    how was the hand played??

    the hand was played brilliant
    you got what you wanted
    if you folded here iam going to sit into my car and drive upto nass or dublin or where ever the fuck it is you are and personally kick your arse.

    tbh iam not worried about another set here i don't think we see it often enough to make a hero fold imo



    "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

    Comment


      #3
      Any reply will be similar to eightballs. Snap call and fistpump when he shows KQ/AK.

      Comment


        #4
        I'm never folding here. If your behind, its a cooler. In these kinda games, you need to get paid with your big hands. Bet you were wondering how were you going to get a good few chips in the pot and then ended up second guessing yourself. I'd imagine he shows up here with KQ or maybe 22.

        In these deepstack games,and blinds so small, I think I lead out on that flop. Its nice to build a pot from early when you have a big hand.

        Connie

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for the comments(I had figured this is what you would all say during the hand so I made the call fwiw).

          I went into the tank over this one(180sec tank and used it all). Thought the only hand I would beat that makes such a ridic over bet would be KQ(or a donked 22 river set). I make it 11bb on river and he snap makes it 129bb. i haven't seen to many player do that with one/two pair tbh.

          Is there defo no argument for folding here? I know it's a dream river, that no straight draws got there, but how wide is the range of such a monster bet that I can be infront of say AK/KQ v the 3 possible sets that beats me?


          @eightball; lol it's Naas

          Comment


            #6
            You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
              You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll
              okokok...there was 3 seconds left on the clock

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                You went into the tank for 180 secs??? Sick slowroll
                lol thought the same thing myself

                there is no merit whatsoever for folding this hand imo at least not this early in the tournie, most of the players are made up of fish at this stage.

                maybe i could find a fold closer to the ft or if it meant a big jump in money between 5th and 6th or something like that. and at that it would want to be a hell of a lot more scarier board imo.

                cooler if he turned pocket 8's here, doubt if he turned pocket K's or Q's here but not impossible i spose



                "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

                  I don't think the river is nearly as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.
                  Last edited by Sledgejammer; 28-07-10, 01:14.
                  "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                    I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

                    I don't think the river is as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.

                    you would be surprised how often he turns AK or KQ here



                    "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Id click time bank and do a quick sharkscope / OPR. If hes good I fold if hes bad I call

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Eight-Ball View Post
                        there is no merit whatsoever for folding this hand imo at least not this early in the tournie, most of the players are made up of fish at this stage.

                        maybe i could find a fold closer to the ft or if it meant a big jump in money between 5th and 6th or something like that. and at that it would want to be a hell of a lot more scarier board imo.
                        I have different mind set perhaps to this sort of thinking. I don't like putting large portions of my chips in in the early stages of a game(unless I'm in donking mode). I couldn't and wouldn't think twice about a snap call late in the game however, and would happily go broke on most boards at that stage of any game. This particular structure leaves for an incredible amount of play and I tend to do my most of play in position.

                        While I was tanking I was thinking, 'this is where I would be discussing the hand regardless of the result.' It's apparent than my line of thinking for ever folding this hand is wrong.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                          Id click time bank and do a quick sharkscope / OPR. If hes good I fold if hes bad I call
                          OPR was not great. 46% or something around that afaik. But ABI was quite low(I think $2.21).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The stage of the tournament is irrelevant, it's either a call because it represents a positive return on our chip investment or a fold because it represents a negative one (Well unless ICM becomes an issue). It shouldn't change our decision, this is either a call because were ahead a sufficient amount of the time or a fold because we're not. Basing decisions on things like not wanting to gamble early or stuff like that is doing yourself a disservice and wont lead to you getting the best return on your tournaments.
                            "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                              I'd lead the flop there, check raising looks very strong and he checks behind a bit, on this kind of board a lead on the flop here is better I think.

                              I don't think the river is nearly as clear cut as people are making out but I do call, I think this is KQ and 22 enough for a call to be good. But this is never a bluff and I'd need a specific read to put AK, or any one pair hand, in his range.
                              I agree that it's not going to win a big pot on this board to c/r.
                              My line was going to be c/c on flop and re-evaluate the turn. Leading turn cards like a suited Q or any cards than weaken the strenght of my hand, and checking blanks or cards that improve my hand. Bad line to take? (Obv villain decided to check behind and the hand played as above.)

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                I agree that it's not going to win a big pot on this board to c/r.
                                My line was going to be c/c on flop and re-evaluate the turn. Leading turn cards like a suited Q or any cards than weaken the strenght of my hand, and checking blanks or cards that improve my hand. Bad line to take? (Obv villain decided to check behind and the hand played as above.)
                                It's hardly terrible, but it's very difficult to build a pot like this. We're oop against the pre flop raiser and the opponent were most likely to get to put alot of money into the pot, if we check call we get to the turn without the betting initiative and a small pot. We need to build the pot with a hand like this and get him to put in as much money as possible so that by the river we can bet alot of chips and have it not be an overbet. If we lead the flop we get called relatively wide and get called by all the hands he pot controls with, so against a hand like 99 for example we can force him into a calling down guessing game rather than let him control the size of the pot. If he has a big hand the pot'll get big anyway.

                                In general, slowplaying this deep by check calling out of position is just never good. They check back dry boards alot especially three way and even if they don't we still end up on the turn oop no initiative and a tiny pot not sure whether to check or lead. You can argue that this way the first player to act has to act before we do anything if the pfr bets but the con's way outweigh the pro's I think, and we just don't get enough money into the pot which is not what we want with a huge hand like this.
                                "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  This is never 22 ever, dont know how people think thats in his range.

                                  No idea what the standard in these tournaments is like but i think this is a higer set almost always against most people.
                                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                  I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                  None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                    This is never 22 ever, dont know how people think thats in his range.

                                    No idea what the standard in these tournaments is like but i think this is a higer set almost always against most people.
                                    I didn't think it was 22 either tbh, unless he's a total fish he's never calling the turn with 22.

                                    Your second point is what I'm looking for. I tanked because I really only thought it was only KQ that I beat, and I'm behind the three other hands that make this play. His check behind on the flop was made what me think villain is more likely to have 88, KK or QQ. Why would villain not Cbet such a dry board unless he flopped a monster...maybe(QQ would prob check behind too)?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      This isn't an snap call at all, all the responses so far are from people not thinking the hand through, just relying on learnt rules, ie never fold sets.

                                      This is situation where although you have a strong hand, relatively speaking it's quite weak. Assuming your opponent is value raising (and he is in anyway competent), you are never good here. The only hand that's that shove the river are sets, and you have the worst possible set. (He is unlikely to have 22 on the river, and he is super unlikely to shove it all in considering he will know he isn't going to get called by anything he beats).

                                      He could be bluffing, but this is a very strange line to take with a bluff. If he wanted to win the pot he would usually c-bet, and the raise is much bigger than he needs to make. Still you can't rule it out completely.

                                      The argument for calling is that your opponent may be a moron, and have decided to either make a retarded bluff, or that he is so bad as to overvalue KQ, AK, AA or some random 2 pair hand hugely. He has to not only overvalue them but to not cbet them (which would be weird), not raise the turn with them (which would be a little strange) and then go mental with them on the river, which would be very weird.

                                      If I was playing this hand my decision would rest solely on what I thought of the villain. If he had done anything donkish I would call. Its only a tough decision because the fact that he makes such a huge overraise means he is more likely to be a donk than a normal raise. (Although you would obviously call a normal raise since you would be getting much better odds and he is more likely to be bluffing.) I'd put him pretty firmly on QQ

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Well, if people are saying we should fold the near top of our range(88 would be the strongest hand we can have here), isn't this a great spot for a bluff? Though if he had air he could just make it 2000 and put pressure on our Kx type hands and not risk his tourny is he's called.

                                        All the same, how many people are capable of doing that? What does he expect us to call off over 100bbs with?

                                        Folding would tilt me for a week, but so would calling and being showed KK/QQ/88. I think it's QQ or some weird spazz, flip a coin and decide I suppose.
                                        Last edited by Moneymaker; 28-07-10, 13:10.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                          OPR was not great. 46% or something around that afaik. But ABI was quite low(I think $2.21).
                                          I cant decide if that makes him bad enough to make this a call or bad enough that he slow played a monster and then spaz shoved the river because he has like loads behind into a relatively small pot.

                                          Meh fwiw I fold just because his value range has us crushed and its not a bluff very often

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            You don't need sharkscope and much of a hand history to tell you that this guy is a spaz.
                                            If he has kk,88 and to a lesser extent qq he played it like an uber donk.
                                            Min bet. Check. Check call. Mega over bet.

                                            Call every time for me against this guy.
                                            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              why would he push with a hand that beats us here?

                                              - because he's a good player who knows that you're a good player who thinks he is a bad player and you are therefore capable of paying him off without the nuts

                                              - because he's a bad player who is playing a hand that crushes you badly

                                              we have no reason to believe he's a good player. in fact all the info available to us (stats, ABI, way he's played this hand) suggests otherwise.

                                              so he's a bad player.

                                              does a bad player turn up with a hand that beats you more often than a hand that does not?

                                              no

                                              so call

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Well I'm back to where I started...call or not? since the structure of this game leaves a whole lot of play does it mean there will be much better chances to get them in, especially for such a monster pot?

                                                Imo there are so few people that will make this bet with light but I guess anything is possible. Most donks in early stages tend to be over agro pre and post, not really thinking out what there next move will be. I think a very high % of fish will Cbet here tbh. There's not too many that are going to be flatting the turn lead and overbetting the river here with nothing. Far too complex/ridiculous a bluff imo so that was never even in my thoughts. Also I has no real read on villain as he has not been in that seat too long.

                                                I don't really use the opr for much, early in tourneys tbh. Just more of a rough outline of what strength of player I'm up against. I think it is alot more relevant towards the later stages when the weaker players start to crack.

                                                I really don't think it's a snap call anyway. Don't think I'm ever snapping 100+bb reraise on riv without the nuts. Am I wrong to be thinking for so long about this hand?

                                                Even without a read, if I give him a range of KQ, 88, QQ, KK, only one of which I beat, should I be folding?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I never fold sets in a tournament if I can only be beaten by an overset regardless of the donkish way a hand is played. Meh, he probably has it here but if so it's a cooler, I definitely wouldn't be looking to hero fold in a spot like this. There are just too many donks out there so I wouldn't overthink it regardless of the result.
                                                  I had been commenting to friends about a month ago that I hadn't run a set into an overset in about 6 months on the flop, (so not counting getting it in and being rivered by overpairs). Then a couple of weeks ago, 3 nights on the trot I run 2's into 5's, 7's into 9's and 9's into A's all flopped oversets.
                                                  This was just a horrible run and nothing else. It's just too rare to worry about it and you are definitely losing value if you fold in these spots.
                                                  So I call and If he has it then so be it, it won't make a difference to me the next time I'm in this spot. I'd always call.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Caf View Post

                                                    I really don't think it's a snap call anyway. Don't think I'm ever snapping 100+bb reraise on riv without the nuts. Am I wrong to be thinking for so long about this hand?
                                                    no, and I don't think its a snap call, and I think that HJ's reasoning that its QQ is stronger than the reasoning for any other given hand

                                                    but you have to make some kind of decision and;

                                                    Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                    There are just too many donks out there so I wouldn't overthink it regardless of the result.
                                                    I mean if this is a very big buy in tournie where busting out matters and where there's a chance the other guy isn't a donk then you can let it go, but its not. he's doing something donkish a lot more than he has you beat. if you fold here you're missing out on value in the long run.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                                      why would he push with a hand that beats us here?

                                                      - because he's a good player who knows that you're a good player who thinks he is a bad player and you are therefore capable of paying him off without the nuts

                                                      - because he's a bad player who is playing a hand that crushes you badly

                                                      we have no reason to believe he's a good player. in fact all the info available to us (stats, ABI, way he's played this hand) suggests otherwise.

                                                      so he's a bad player.

                                                      does a bad player turn up with a hand that beats you more often than a hand that does not?

                                                      no

                                                      so call
                                                      You dont have enough info to say hes a bad player.
                                                      If he has a set here how exactly has he played it badly??

                                                      Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                                      I never fold sets in a tournament if I can only be beaten by an overset regardless of the donkish way a hand is played. Meh, he probably has it here but if so it's a cooler, I definitely wouldn't be looking to hero fold in a spot like this. There are just too many donks out there so I wouldn't overthink it regardless of the result.
                                                      I had been commenting to friends about a month ago that I hadn't run a set into an overset in about 6 months on the flop, (so not counting getting it in and being rivered by overpairs). Then a couple of weeks ago, 3 nights on the trot I run 2's into 5's, 7's into 9's and 9's into A's all flopped oversets.
                                                      This was just a horrible run and nothing else. It's just too rare to worry about it and you are definitely losing value if you fold in these spots.
                                                      So I call and If he has it then so be it, it won't make a difference to me the next time I'm in this spot. I'd always call.
                                                      Need to look at this hand in a vacuum. Almost everyone apart from HJ so far has just gone omg ive a set i super snap call villain must be a fish without even thinking about the villains range here.

                                                      Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                                      I mean if this is a very big buy in tournie where busting out matters and where there's a chance the other guy isn't a donk then you can let it go, but its not. he's doing something donkish a lot more than he has you beat. if you fold here you're missing out on value in the long run.
                                                      What do you mean if busting out matters.
                                                      So if its a bigger buyin you play better do you??

                                                      You should be trying to play every single hand as well as possible.
                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Villains thinking imo.

                                                        OMG!!!! I have teh aces!!!!111eleven
                                                        ummm minraise, want to keep people in the hand
                                                        Flop 4 K 8r
                                                        YESS! no flushdraws, hopefully he has the Kball for Check Raise in the Hisseee!!!
                                                        Checked
                                                        Shit...ummm check back, slowroll baby...Helmuth Stylie
                                                        Turn Q
                                                        No way he hits his flush now...., what a player let him catch something, saw that on the WSOP once, If he has J10 or AJ though I better watch out
                                                        No way!!! I have two aces!! he'll never get there but just in case, call
                                                        river 2
                                                        THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING BOUT
                                                        I OWN YOU MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!
                                                        Hero bets 550
                                                        550?
                                                        I spit on your 5 fiddy
                                                        Here it comes the pain!!!!
                                                        ALL IN BABY!!!!
                                                        People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                        Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                        https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          his whole line is congruent with having QQ.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                            You dont have enough info to say hes a bad player.
                                                            If he has a set here how exactly has he played it badly??
                                                            we do have this info. he is a losing player on OPR and his average buy in is $2.21. he is very unlikely to be a good player at this level.

                                                            he has also played this hand very badly if he has a set, his line is getting the least possible value on flop and turn and he will only get paid by a tiny % of our holdings on the river. he has even managed to convince the OP to consider folding part of that tiny %.

                                                            as I said above the only way he could be said to play the hand well is if he's trying to make you think he's a donk and getting you to call when you otherwise wouldn't

                                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post

                                                            What do you mean if busting out matters.
                                                            So if its a bigger buyin you play better do you??

                                                            You should be trying to play every single hand as well as possible.
                                                            if its a buy in that makes me uncomfortable I'd be less inclined to take the risk involved in calling here this early and this deep in a tournament. and if the buy in was big enough to make me think that the standard of player in the tournament was better then the chances of him pushing a hand thats a monster in the hope that someone will spaz call are higher, then I'll consider folding.

                                                            but if its a small buy in and I'm going to play a large number of these level buy in tournamnets then I'm happy to call and write of the variance the few times I'm beaten because more often than not I'm ahead here

                                                            are you honestly saying you fold this hand every time someone pushes like this over it? you have absolutely no information to justify this, so your default position should be call. if you had specific info it might be different, and while I agree the line most resembles QQ, given my reasons for saying he's a bad player above, I think its more other hands than QQ.

                                                            in fact his line also looks like 22

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              lol at dead parrots answer above
                                                              fwiw i think he is not to far wrong either

                                                              kings and queens do come to mind here but again bad play
                                                              he has minraised so as not to frighten everyone out of the pot
                                                              if he has the kings he has flopped a set and is slow playing them
                                                              if he has queens he checked the flop because the king frightened him

                                                              but this is all speculation.
                                                              but one thing for sure is that everyone is calling this shove some with scrunched up faces and others with a flip top head type smiles.



                                                              "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                You dont have enough info to say hes a bad player.
                                                                If he has a set here how exactly has he played it badly??



                                                                Need to look at this hand in a vacuum. Almost everyone apart from HJ so far has just gone omg ive a set i super snap call villain must be a fish without even thinking about the villains range here.


                                                                What do you mean if busting out matters.
                                                                So if its a bigger buyin you play better do you??

                                                                You should be trying to play every single hand as well as possible.
                                                                I don't feel this way, it's more of a "donks shove with soooo many hands" moment for me. This guy could have sat down and got it in his head he can win any hand with an overbet shove, or thinks you might have AK and KQ is the nuts. If this is a big live tourney I probably fold against someone I know is capable of this but a tourney online I call all day long.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  His min raise pre and huge overshove on the river are enough for me to peg him as an idiot.

                                                                  I am not overjoyed but I call.

                                                                  Opr

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                    If he has a set here how exactly has he played it badly??



                                                                    Need to look at this hand in a vacuum. Almost everyone apart from HJ so far has just gone omg ive a set i super snap call villain must be a fish without even thinking about the villains range here.
                                                                    He played it really badly because he failed to build a pot with a set and then made such a massive raise he made Caf consider folding a lower set. You should be building the pot with strong hands, not hoping for the turn and river to blank so you can bet 10 times the pot hoping your opponent has an underset

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                                                      we do have this info. he is a losing player on OPR and his average buy in is $2.21. he is very unlikely to be a good player at this level.

                                                                      he has also played this hand very badly if he has a set, his line is getting the least possible value on flop and turn and he will only get paid by a tiny % of our holdings on the river. he has even managed to convince the OP to consider folding part of that tiny %.

                                                                      as I said above the only way he could be said to play the hand well is if he's trying to make you think he's a donk and getting you to call when you otherwise wouldn't



                                                                      if its a buy in that makes me uncomfortable I'd be less inclined to take the risk involved in calling here this early and this deep in a tournament. and if the buy in was big enough to make me think that the standard of player in the tournament was better then the chances of him pushing a hand thats a monster in the hope that someone will spaz call are higher, then I'll consider folding.

                                                                      but if its a small buy in and I'm going to play a large number of these level buy in tournamnets then I'm happy to call and write of the variance the few times I'm beaten because more often than not I'm ahead here

                                                                      are you honestly saying you fold this hand every time someone pushes like this over it? you have absolutely no information to justify this, so your default position should be call. if you had specific info it might be different, and while I agree the line most resembles QQ, given my reasons for saying he's a bad player above, I think its more other hands than QQ.

                                                                      in fact his line also looks like 22
                                                                      Losing player over how many tournaments??

                                                                      I agree he hasnt played it the greatest but theres nothing wrong with slow playing a set on that flop.

                                                                      You shouldnt be playing that high if its going to influence your decision making.

                                                                      This spot wont come up that often.
                                                                      22 wont peel the turn much unless he totally handicapped.

                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                      He played it really badly because he failed to build a pot with a set and then made such a massive raise he made Caf consider folding a lower set. You should be building the pot with strong hands, not hoping for the turn and river to blank so you can bet 10 times the pot hoping your opponent has an underset
                                                                      Yeah the river is silly but slow playing a set on that flop is feasible.
                                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post

                                                                        Yeah the river is silly but slow playing a set on that flop is feasible.
                                                                        Of course its feasible, HJ was merely pointing out that it would be bad.

                                                                        Opr

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Opr View Post
                                                                          Of course its feasible, HJ was merely pointing out that it would be bad.

                                                                          Opr
                                                                          Its not bad though.

                                                                          If you have the deck crushed its ok to check it there sometimes.
                                                                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                          I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                          None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            I'm guessing your set was no good here and that is why you posted the hand.

                                                                            Would you have posted it if you called and he showed up with k8s?

                                                                            In this spot where we know little about the villian we have to draw on our experience of playing trends at this level.

                                                                            In my experience you will see AA, two pairs and mad bluffs, even 22 more than you will see KK,QQ or 88 here. The margin is not massive I'll grant you that, but if you were in this spot ten thousand times and you called each one it would be EV+ IMO.

                                                                            Why can he show up with KK here and not 22 when you look at all streets?
                                                                            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                              Losing player over how many tournaments??
                                                                              idk. but it suggests he's bad and there's nothing to suggest he's good.

                                                                              Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                              I agree he hasnt played it the greatest but theres nothing wrong with slow playing a set on that flop.
                                                                              even if slowplaying the flop (assuming he's hit it) was acceptable he's slow played the turn also which is ridic.

                                                                              Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                              You shouldnt be playing that high if its going to influence your decision making.
                                                                              i'm not but we all have dreams of playing / winning a big one. i'm just saying that i mightn't be as willing to take the gamble if there was a lot at stake. here its just meh if i'm beat i'm beat.

                                                                              Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                              This spot wont come up that often.
                                                                              22 wont peel the turn much unless he totally handicapped.
                                                                              nor will you being beat come up this often

                                                                              ironically enough peeling turn wouldn't be that bad given stack sizes

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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                                I'm guessing your set was no good here and that is why you posted the hand.
                                                                                i think OP was good actually, but was just taken aback that he thought about folding and posted as a result

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                                                                  idk. but it suggests he's bad and there's nothing to suggest he's good.



                                                                                  even if slowplaying the flop (assuming he's hit it) was acceptable he's slow played the turn also which is ridic.



                                                                                  i'm not but we all have dreams of playing / winning a big one. i'm just saying that i mightn't be as willing to take the gamble if there was a lot at stake. here its just meh if i'm beat i'm beat.



                                                                                  nor will you being beat come up this often

                                                                                  ironically enough peeling turn wouldn't be that bad given stack sizes
                                                                                  Id just have him as an unknown, ive played so few tournaments id say i have a losing OPR as well.

                                                                                  Yeah im not saying hes played it super or anything.

                                                                                  Peeling the turn with 22 would be awful unless you're planning to run a ton of bluffs on the river and there arent even any decent scare cards that can hit to do it on.
                                                                                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                                  I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                                  None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Caf View Post
                                                                                    While I was tanking I was thinking, 'this is where I would be discussing the hand regardless of the result.'
                                                                                    Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                                    I'm guessing your set was no good here and that is why you posted the hand.

                                                                                    Would you have posted it if you called and he showed up with k8s?

                                                                                    In this spot where we know little about the villian we have to draw on our experience of playing trends at this level.

                                                                                    In my experience you will see AA, two pairs and mad bluffs, even 22 more than you will see KK,QQ or 88 here. The margin is not massive I'll grant you that, but if you were in this spot ten thousand times and you called each one it would be EV+ IMO.

                                                                                    Why can he show up with KK here and not 22 when you look at all streets?
                                                                                    Is it relevant whether my set was good or not? The hand was coming on here regardless. I rarely use the time bank in a hand and most of the time I use it I will post the hand regardless of the outcome.

                                                                                    While I do draw on my experience for poker I have not experienced every different spot and hence the main reason why I post hands, to look for advice.

                                                                                    Surely 22 is so rare here that it can barley be considered, just like single pairs imo.
                                                                                    Last edited by Caf; 29-07-10, 00:09. Reason: the result...

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Don't know why people are so quick to dismiss the chances of someone who regularly plays 2.20 tournaments playing 22 this way. In fact I'd say an above average amount of players in those tournaments would call the turn with 22 as played.
                                                                                      "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                        This isn't an snap call at all, all the responses so far are from people not thinking the hand through, just relying on learnt rules, ie never fold sets.

                                                                                        This is situation where although you have a strong hand, relatively speaking it's quite weak. Assuming your opponent is value raising (and he is in anyway competent), you are never good here. The only hand that's that shove the river are sets, and you have the worst possible set. (He is unlikely to have 22 on the river, and he is super unlikely to shove it all in considering he will know he isn't going to get called by anything he beats).

                                                                                        He could be bluffing, but this is a very strange line to take with a bluff. If he wanted to win the pot he would usually c-bet, and the raise is much bigger than he needs to make. Still you can't rule it out completely.

                                                                                        The argument for calling is that your opponent may be a moron, and have decided to either make a retarded bluff, or that he is so bad as to overvalue KQ, AK, AA or some random 2 pair hand hugely. He has to not only overvalue them but to not cbet them (which would be weird), not raise the turn with them (which would be a little strange) and then go mental with them on the river, which would be very weird.

                                                                                        If I was playing this hand my decision would rest solely on what I thought of the villain. If he had done anything donkish I would call. Its only a tough decision because the fact that he makes such a huge overraise means he is more likely to be a donk than a normal raise. (Although you would obviously call a normal raise since you would be getting much better odds and he is more likely to be bluffing.) I'd put him pretty firmly on QQ

                                                                                        Hi Darragh,
                                                                                        The last paragraph says it all for me. You say if he had done anything donkish, you would call. Well, no matter what he has in his hand, you surely agree that he played this hand terribly bad. If he does have the overset, he has played it to make the minimum in a deepstack tournament. If he has 1pair, 2 pair or air, he has played the hand terribly as well. I would just consider him to be a poor player, and im never folding my set there against him.
                                                                                        If your decision is based on what you think of the villian, then you just have to call imho.

                                                                                        Connie

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          you make it 11 BBs on river he makes 129BBs.

                                                                                          you make 11 BBs on river he then rerasies it to say 35BBs what would you do in this situation, are you going to fold now or are you just waiting to get all your chips in when it gets back to you to act.

                                                                                          just be curious as to what you do in this situation. its more r less the same but completly different.
                                                                                          http://www.sitnpoker.com/?amigosid=18

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                                            Its not bad though.

                                                                                            If you have the deck crushed its ok to check it there sometimes.
                                                                                            No its never good. You should never check there. Checking is terrible. You have so many chips to get into the pot, checking and closing the action is really awful,

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                                                                                              Don't know why people are so quick to dismiss the chances of someone who regularly plays 2.20 tournaments playing 22 this way. In fact I'd say an above average amount of players in those tournaments would call the turn with 22 as played.
                                                                                              You should fold if he has always has a set even if 22 in his range

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                                                Hi Darragh,
                                                                                                The last paragraph says it all for me. You say if he had done anything donkish, you would call. Well, no matter what he has in his hand, you surely agree that he played this hand terribly bad. If he does have the overset, he has played it to make the minimum in a deepstack tournament. If he has 1pair, 2 pair or air, he has played the hand terribly as well. I would just consider him to be a poor player, and im never folding my set there against him.
                                                                                                If your decision is based on what you think of the villian, then you just have to call imho.

                                                                                                Connie
                                                                                                Sorry, its a subtle difference. Many TAG players will play their hands very badly, as I just posted I think checking the flop is terrible, but that doesn't stop them doing it. There is a large subsection of players who are bad enough to check the flop with a set (im simplifying here a little), but not bad enough to ever turn up here with a bluff or two pair.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                  No its never good. You should never check there. Checking is terrible. You have so many chips to get into the pot, checking and closing the action is really awful,
                                                                                                  You wont always be able to get every chip in the middle.

                                                                                                  So you never slow play a set in a spot like that ever??
                                                                                                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                                                  I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                                                  None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                                                                                    You wont always be able to get every chip in the middle.
                                                                                                    So? You are unlikely to get every chip in the middle since you are so deep, but you should try and get as many as you can in

                                                                                                    So you never slow play a set in a spot like that ever??
                                                                                                    No, it's far too deep and the pot is too tiny to even contemplate it

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Hand has been played terribly no matter what he has and I'm certain he has 22 at best. I don't care if I lose here because its just so ridiculous that I'll put a note on him if he does have me crushed, I'm putting a not him no matter what the result.
                                                                                                      'Mental Toughness is doing the right thing for the team when it's not the best thing for you' - Bill Belichick

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        villains line is terrible no matter what he has, but especially if he has a set. Im calling because of this but its not a fistpump

                                                                                                        @starvinmarvin, slowplaying a set is bad because you should be trying to get all your chips in the middle with a set, and its 130BB deep. Also villain is pfr so he doesnt show huge strength by cbetting a dry board. As hectorjelly said hes got to the river having to massively overbet to try get chips in (if he has a set) and is making hero consider folding top of his range. Slowplaying might be ok if we were 30bb deep or something

                                                                                                        I think a more interesting question is if he raises like 2.5-3 times our riverbet do we call or shove

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                                                          You don't need sharkscope and much of a hand history to tell you that this guy is a spaz.
                                                                                                          If he has kk,88 and to a lesser extent qq he played it like an uber donk.
                                                                                                          Min bet. Check. Check call. Mega over bet.

                                                                                                          Call every time for me against this guy.
                                                                                                          Dont think the guy is that bad all in all, he has got us either folding the winning hand or calling with a worse hand, what ever we do we dont like it so he has played his position perfectly and has put us under max pressure, well played villian! i read the op posts and alot of replies too so can hardly put up an objective opion i'll point out that durrr did something like this with air not so long ago on Poker after dark and got phil lark to fold a King, since were assuming he's bad he obv will do stuff that he doesnt understand what or why he is doin it, he has just seen Ivey or Hellnuth do it on tv so he does it, i would call for that reason i think, prob, maybe notsure

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            Originally posted by phantom_lord View Post
                                                                                                            his whole line is congruent with having QQ.
                                                                                                            not enough love for this
                                                                                                            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                            Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                            https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Whats he putting us on?

                                                                                                              If he wants us to call he must be putting us on a small sett, did we play the hand like we had a sett?
                                                                                                              I dont think we played like we had KQ so he's not expecting us to call with Q8 or 82.

                                                                                                              I'm calling here, somtimes we can be guilty of the big overthink and if he has the bigger sett then WP,lesson learnt.

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                                                                not enough love for this
                                                                                                                I had to google it to make sure it was a cromulent word

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                                  You should fold if he has always has a set even if 22 in his range
                                                                                                                  Obviously, but if he has KQ in his range it becomes a call, even if he never bluffs and his range is exclusively sets and all combos of KQ. Anything we know about villain would be a huge help but without access to any further information I'd say this is just about a call.
                                                                                                                  "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Was talking to moneymaker on wed last in the Jackpot and he was telling me about this is such a wierd spot after reading you op, i stand by what i said to him,

                                                                                                                    if he is bad call, if he is good fold. what i mean is that if he over plays AA/AK/AQ/KQ by shoving in this spot i would call, if he doesnt and is a solid enough player you really should fold! He prob doesnt think on a high level every thinking you have a hand like you do, it may feel he can get you off 2 pair etc if he shoves


                                                                                                                    Personally i don't think i ever fold.... but it's like what i said in the above post, the villain may not know what he is doing but has forced us into a wick tough spot! These are the spots in poker where no matter what you decide it's nearly always wrong

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by pgodkin View Post
                                                                                                                      i don't think i ever fold.
                                                                                                                      lol

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Results?

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