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Old 12-07-13, 13:19   #3181
thegreatiam
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
Yeah that's what I figured. He claimed the pot and I mucked anyway. What the dealer said was very odd.
dealers aren't required to learn the rules, most pick them up 2nd or 3rd hand from colleges or customers.
Then they get made into floorpeople.
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Old 17-07-13, 00:06   #3182
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Fitz 55 Double Chance. Villain in the hand is 40ish, seems ok. Has just amassed a huge stack after getting dealt big pairs and people shoving into him. Been raising a lot more with stack. Table is 6 handed for last couple of hands.

Blinds 800/1500/100

Villain raises 3500 on button and I defend BB with K9 playing c. 55k (effective stack)

Flop KQ9 and check call a 5500 bet. Could prob check raise here I suppose

Turn is 6 check to villain with intention of raising/getting it in if he bets. He dwells for a few secs and announces all in...

Easy call/fold?
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Old 17-07-13, 00:12   #3183
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i'm calling all day he shows up with draws, AK, and worse two pairs enough to call imo
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Old 17-07-13, 01:00   #3184
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Prefer 3b or fold pre, defending K9o off this stack is meh. C/r flop, snap-call turn as played, pretty hard to be beat
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Old 17-07-13, 05:05   #3185
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You played it fine, insta call now; you've given him enough rope so that his range contains a lot of hands you beat. The advantage to flat calling the flop is that you hugely underrepresent your hand. There's no way you can fold. You will definitely be beaten a certain percentage of the time, since the board is so scary sets are going to push.

I think live a call is better than a fold pre. If your folding K9o here your calling range is going to be very small. 3betting is fine obv, but depends on gameflow etc IMO.

On the flop a check raise is pretty standard, however it shows a lot of strength and your hand is almost at the bottom of a checkraising value range. I think a lot of players will fold a weak king to a check raise. Against someone who will auto stack off with k2 then a cr is better. I quite like flat calling to induce a bluff/value shove with worse. Against a good player flat calling is dangerous since you don't know how to react to a dangerous turn cards, but most players will play pretty straightforwardly if draws hit (ie they will bet one street and no more without a big hand).

That all said the fact you posted the hand means you should fold since you lost.
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Old 17-07-13, 11:13   #3186
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did he have KQ?
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Old 17-07-13, 12:16   #3187
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this is a simple case of COMBINATORICS
just work out how many combos ye loose to and how many ye beat
like on that board your loosing to 14 combos
combos of hands we lose to (99 kk QQ 66 KQ)
how many combos of each =99=1 KK=1 QQ=3 66=3 KQ=6 total =14 combos we loose to
now how many we beat ill let you do his range for this as i do not no anything about villian
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Old 17-07-13, 12:44   #3188
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
On the flop a check raise is pretty standard, however it shows a lot of strength and your hand is almost at the bottom of a checkraising value range. I think a lot of players will fold a weak king to a check raise. Against someone who will auto stack off with k2 then a cr is better. I quite like flat calling to induce a bluff/value shove with worse. Against a good player flat calling is dangerous since you don't know how to react to a dangerous turn cards, but most players will play pretty straightforwardly if draws hit (ie they will bet one street and no more without a big hand).
Even discounting the fact he bet 5500 into ~8k, this is still an auto c/r flop.. It's really unlikely our hand is going to get better and plenty of turns either kill our action vs the range of worse hands he would have stacked off with (AA,AK,KJ,KT,Q9,AcXc,etc) or leave us hating our life when double barreled. Also villain probably doesn't pay more than one street with Qx or worse so we don't miss all that much value by c/raising, and the likelihood is he will only continue bluffing on textures which are bad for our hand. His massive over-shove on a blank turn is probably the best result we could have asked for when flatting flop to disguise. If he bet again and we c/shove it looks much stronger than flop c/r, and we probably value cut ourselves somewhat, while on the other hand calling and praying for brick rivers on which we hope he will shove with worse doesn't feel too great either.

Also important here in the grand scheme, (less so in a vacuum vs an average live player), our overall c/r range on this flop is realistically quite thin, but our semi-bluffs combos (FD's, pair+draw) need to be balanced to some degree, so on top of KQ,JT it's pretty important we incl at least K9 here, Q9 too.
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Old 17-07-13, 12:47   #3189
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add JTs and JTo to that list too..
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Old 17-07-13, 14:39   #3190
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Originally Posted by Winning! View Post
Even discounting the fact he bet 5500 into ~8k, this is still an auto c/r flop.. It's really unlikely our hand is going to get better and plenty of turns either kill our action vs the range of worse hands he would have stacked off with (AA,AK,KJ,KT,Q9,AcXc,etc) or leave us hating our life when double barreled. Also villain probably doesn't pay more than one street with Qx or worse so we don't miss all that much value by c/raising, and the likelihood is he will only continue bluffing on textures which are bad for our hand. His massive over-shove on a blank turn is probably the best result we could have asked for when flatting flop to disguise. If he bet again and we c/shove it looks much stronger than flop c/r, and we probably value cut ourselves somewhat, while on the other hand calling and praying for brick rivers on which we hope he will shove with worse doesn't feel too great either.

Also important here in the grand scheme, (less so in a vacuum vs an average live player), our overall c/r range on this flop is realistically quite thin, but our semi-bluffs combos (FD's, pair+draw) need to be balanced to some degree, so on top of KQ,JT it's pretty important we incl at least K9 here, Q9 too.
On the last point, I don't think balancing your range is that important here, but in any case there are quite a few value hands we could have, as you say KQ, JT; but also KK (the odd time) QQ (a bit more likely) 99 (very often). My main problem is that k9 is actually at the bottom of the value raising range, and so is going to not be very profitable. I don't know if a random ok player stacks off with AK if we check raise here.

I think from experience many players double barrel too much, so calling exploits that.

A lot of this argument is based on presumptions on what our opponent is going to do, so it might be very hard to agree.
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Old 17-07-13, 19:53   #3191
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Just realised I haven't posted here in ages. I'm trying to pay the bills with poker while looking for a proper job in Vancouver at the moment. Absolutely smashed the live cash in the Edgewater Casino last night for $800+. Felt pretty good, frankly. That's the month's rent paid, time to earn some food money.
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Old 17-07-13, 22:56   #3192
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Cheers for all the input lads. Didn't snap the turn shove because it just seemed so odd to me but called then as felt was ahead a lot of the time in this spot. He had top two anyway which I was kind of surprised at.

I don't think I'd be comfortable 3 betting K9 out of position pre in this game vs most of the opponents there
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Old 18-07-13, 01:51   #3193
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I don't think I'd be comfortable 3 betting K9 out of position pre in this game vs most of the opponents there
Why not?
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Old 18-07-13, 10:25   #3194
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Why not?
In the Fitz, particularly the table I was on that night I think 3bets must have been called at least 80% of the time. K9 out of position in a bloated pot would seem a difficult hand to play to me
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Old 18-07-13, 10:47   #3195
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In the Fitz, particularly the table I was on that night I think 3bets must have been called at least 80% of the time. K9 out of position in a bloated pot would seem a difficult hand to play to me
I was there! (At the Fitz, don't think I was at the table) I don't agree that you are getting called 80% of the time, but even if you are, a cbet is going to be hugely profitable on almost any board. In this hand it wouldn't have changed much obviously.
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Old 18-07-13, 10:58   #3196
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
I was there! (At the Fitz, don't think I was at the table) I don't agree that you are getting called 80% of the time, but even if you are, a cbet is going to be hugely profitable on almost any board. In this hand it wouldn't have changed much obviously.
I only remember you with an eyepatch Now I think of it were you at the 1st table as you come up the stairs, talking to Sickpuppy at some stage?

you and Jbravado look a bit a like cos thought it was him for a min. If it was you

Last edited by ghostface; 18-07-13 at 11:09.
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Old 18-07-13, 13:30   #3197
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Its easy to spot me, I'm wearing a Fitz shirt!
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Old 18-07-13, 14:47   #3198
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did he have KQ?
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He had top two anyway which I was kind of surprised at.

Boom, get on my level.

*does hulkamania poses*
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Old 19-07-13, 00:12   #3199
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I only remember you with an eyepatch Now I think of it were you at the 1st table as you come up the stairs, talking to Sickpuppy at some stage?

you and Jbravado look a bit a like cos thought it was him for a min. If it was you
Not sure if that is worse for you or me HJ! Prob the same difference.

fwiw I really dislike three betting here I think- rarely if ever gets through, even a small c bet will see a decent chunk of your tank in there and then potentially are going to be making a bigger mistake folding at this stage if you flop a hand with okay equity.

I much prefer just folding this pre, in the Fitz just keep it simple and stay in position. No need to defend with this hand, a hand I dont think plays particularly well full stop, but especially with these stacks.
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Old 19-07-13, 21:19   #3200
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qq

I'm in the big blind and theres a 2.5x raise utg and 1 caller

folded around to me

what range should I be flatting with?
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