Dragon's Den, IPB Style: Coffee or GTFO

[The Situation]

If Kayroo get's more involved you should name it 'The 2 Baristas'.

The name will be lost on 99.999% of customers but still ^^^this

It's amazing how a good pun helps my decision process on where to eat. There's a little Italian place on Lord Edward Street with the slogan 'worth every Penne' outside it which had me sold straight away regardless of the menu.

[mocata]

This place in abbey street is the nuts for coffee, the guy's enthusiasm for coffee is infectious. Worth a few visits in the planning stages.

http://www.3fe.com/

[RasTa]

I don't think copying Costa Coffee or Starbucks is the way to go. Coffee and pastry should be enough.

Guessing that 3FE place is just coffee only?

[Kayroo]

If Kayroo get's more involved you should name it 'The 2 Baristas'.

Friend of mine told me recently that when he visited relatives of his wife in America a few years back he told them he was studying to be a barrister and they all nodded approvingly. He went back that Christmas and he was asked how work was going and he said he was still ploughing away with the study to be a barrister. One of them looks confused and asks his wife "How long does it take to learn to serve coffee in Ireland???"

[Kayroo]

If Kayroo get's more involved you should name it 'The 2 Baristas'.

I assumed this was designed to get at me...

[MrsFlushdraw]

I am no business woman but just on seeing the amount of people wanting to get in on this venture made me think of my old place of work in Scotland.

Armitage Shanks closed down and the workers put their redundancy money together and opened a new pottery and started up under the name of Barrhead Sanitaryware. There were loads of chiefs and very few Indians and all there were was arguements as they all felt they should be running it as they put their money into the pot.

The place did shut down last year after being opened about 15 years. After the workers co-op failed it was bought over by Baxi Group and then another huge company took it over. Was a shame to see it close it's doors finally as there was nowhere for these people with the pottery trade to go.

It is just my humble opinion that you would be best with fewer investors who would be willing to commit a larger amount than loads of small ones. Take all the help you can from the business heads round here. I have started and ran a business in Scotland with my ex and also ran a business in Donegal. If I was closer I would love to have helped in some way as I have a finance background from my work in Scotland. I only moved to Law in Ireland.

[Dice75]

Having set up my own business this year, i know how tough it can be so best of luck.

Make sure to budget thoroughly for as many unforseen expenses as possible (the likes of Pest Control etc springs to mind ).

Deffo try & pick the brain of someone in a similar boat.

GL.

[thedini]

I assumed this was designed to get at me...

Huh? not in the slightest, should have included a smiley or something in my post.

[Kayroo]

Huh? not in the slightest, should have included a smiley or something in my post.

Sorry I was joking cause of the mis-placed apostrophe and my rep as a grammar Nazi.

[Lord Sir Banter]

I am no business woman but just on seeing the amount of people wanting to get in on this venture made me think of my old place of work in Scotland.

Armitage Shanks closed down and the workers put their redundancy money together and opened a new pottery and started up under the name of Barrhead Sanitaryware. There were loads of chiefs and very few Indians and all there were was arguements as they all felt they should be running it as they put their money into the pot.

The place did shut down last year after being opened about 15 years. After the workers co-op failed it was bought over by Baxi Group and then another huge company took it over. Was a shame to see it close it's doors finally as there was nowhere for these people with the pottery trade to go.

It is just my humble opinion that you would be best with fewer investors who would be willing to commit a larger amount than loads of small ones. Take all the help you can from the business heads round here. I have started and ran a business in Scotland with my ex and also ran a business in Donegal. If I was closer I would love to have helped in some way as I have a finance background from my work in Scotland. I only moved to Law in Ireland.

Where did they get the name Barrhead Sanitaryware for a pottery place?
Did the pottery have something to do with sanitation?

Don't you have vast experience to offer via Cafe World?

[Icarus152]

I am no business woman but just on seeing the amount of people wanting to get in on this venture made me think of my old place of work in Scotland.

Armitage Shanks closed down and the workers put their redundancy money together and opened a new pottery and started up under the name of Barrhead Sanitaryware. There were loads of chiefs and very few Indians and all there were was arguements as they all felt they should be running it as they put their money into the pot.

The place did shut down last year after being opened about 15 years. After the workers co-op failed it was bought over by Baxi Group and then another huge company took it over. Was a shame to see it close it's doors finally as there was nowhere for these people with the pottery trade to go.

Having too many bosses was the urination of the business.

[MrsFlushdraw]

Where did they get the name Barrhead Sanitaryware for a pottery place?
Did the pottery have something to do with sanitation?

Don't you have vast experience to offer via Cafe World?

Armitage Shanks was a bathroom sanitaryware manufacturer. They had a plant in Barrhead years ago and when Blue Circle bought it 20 odd years ago and closed it down they wanted to open a place with a relevance to the old site as they could not get one in Barrhead (near Glasgow)

I always hated the name and people used to call up and ask if they sold tampons! but they manufactured all the 4 pieces of pottery for themselves, heritage bathrooms and a company called Lefroy brooks.

We still just called it a pottery

And yes, I have a successful cafe with a Barista serving my drinks

[MrsFlushdraw]

Having too many bosses was the urination of the business.

Was a fantastic experience working there. I was the Assistant Accountant and then I ran production (Production Planner/IT Manager) after I came back from my first maternity leave, Was a stressful but brilliant job.

[SatNav]

Was a fantastic experience working there. I was the Assistant Accountant and then I ran production (Production Planner/IT Manager) after I came back from my first maternity leave, Was a stressful but brilliant job.

I,d say you were a right cunt

[MrsFlushdraw]

I,d say you were a right cunt

had to be! With the production process being run against the orders you had to be one. Some casters used to screw up their product if someone pissed them off. I was as nice as the job required.

They were surprised when I had kids as they thought I was career driven

[Semibluff]

The company should be named correctly. If its so that everyone can resonate with it here, like syndicates of a horse then call it GTFO or whatever . . .

But in a business with such small margins and limited success to new start ups you need to take every edge you can get. This includes naming it to its best potential. It has to be something that the general public, or the target market will understand, not something that will "go over their heads and give us a giggle".

The business plan is so vital here, especially the competition analysis. There are models which work, for valid reasons. Stick to the USP you may have (top quality coffee) but you will need to offer more (perhaps plain tea, high end pastries) or else it wont make any money.

Saying you want to run it, and not do the business planning pre launch means your literally just going to be a manager, with a small % (profit share) who's wage will be indicative of the success of the company.
The person who puts together the business plan and identifies locations, does negotiations and brings this whole thing from an idea to a possible plausible profitable business is the person who is going to bring the most worth to this business. As harsh as that may sound, its very true, and until this person is found and his work is completed (finished business plan) then this whole process is going nowhere

[Guest]

Anyone that would put money into this is plain and simple nut's .

[Guest]

Thank you for that valuable contribution sir.

[Zuroph]

Name will be much more widely understood than some people think IMO, its a standard internet saying for a long long time, and the current target demographic are the ones that spread it. Those who dont get it, will ask people what it means, or mention that its a strange name, and get conversation going about the place. I really think its a goer.

[rounders123]

Semibluffs piece reads like the opening credits of this

[Guest]

Semibluffs piece reads like the opening credits of this

Genius sir, genius!

[iSnow]

It's an interesting concept.

Here's a few ideas...

Coffee: Buy Green beans and get em branded, packaged and roasted. You can sell packaged beans on the counter for the sickos. Much cheaper than suppliers.

Premises: Everything's negotiable. Try an ex headshop and take it on as a pop up project for 10 weeks with an option to flexi lease for a longer period.
eg. Listen Mr Landlord, your location/ reputation are fucked. We can clean it up for you but you gotta play ball with us.

Fitout: €5000 Max

Additional revenue streams: Online gaming terminals with Cash in/out facility.
Afterhours cash games.

Business plan: I can do this when Board of directors are decided. Get everyone together to agree on realistic numbers and just fill in the blanks. I'd take a big chunk of this too.

Planning Permission: Simple conversion of use if premises hasn't got it already. I can help with this.

Advertising: Twitter/ FB only. No need for flyers, business cards etc.

Name: GrindHaus Obv

For shits & giggles I'd also be willing to contribute 10 hours per week free of charge until you get up and running.

[hotspur]

...and a few brassers in the back.

[luckforsome]

...and a few brassers in the back.

...Hotspur should be manager for this alone...:-)

[RoadSweeper]

While coffee or gtfo is witty and very funny to nerds, you are automatically alienating 95% of people in terms of understanding your product.

Location is the number one consideration for a project like this and a consideration for the quality of footfall is important.

[thechamp87]

Considering the way the phrase "Cool beans" took over the BBV for a while, I'm surprised nobody suggested that as a name. Have a look at CrackBird and some of those other popup restaurants on the go at the moment. I think opening for 10 weeks or something initially like they do might be the way to go.

Edit: I don't think it would be a particularly good name, just surprised it wasn't mentioned.

[Semibluff]

Name will be much more widely understood than some people think IMO, its a standard internet saying for a long long time, and the current target demographic are the ones that spread it. Those who dont get it, will ask people what it means, or mention that its a strange name, and get conversation going about the place. I really think its a goer.

Ive never used a face palm before! pretty apt now.

The above is not true imo

[rounders123]

Just a thought but how about instead of a bricks&morter coffee place in Dublin what with the high rent and the competition, go for a mobile unit following all the big nationwide events around?.

[Dealers Choice]

Firstly this is not meant to be in any way condescending but it seems as if you have no idea what is involved in setting up a business and the sheer amount of paperwork that is required on a day to day business. Asking people to invest in you, not just you business requires you to know what you are taking on and how much risk is involved with other peoples money.

Well I've no interest in the food business to be honest, so if people think thats what's needed to make it a runner then it might be better left alone. Still, 3FE managed well with just coffee before they expanded and Starbucks never relied on food.

So you want to restrict your profits even before the business plan is started?

Unfortunately Americans like buckets of weak filter coffee, where I'd be aiming for proper Italian style! Serving an artisan cappuccino in your standard travel mug is like eating out of a trough in Chapter One!

I understand that you have been well trained and want show off your skills but you are not an artist, you are a businessman and if thats what the customer wants then that what the customer gets.

A franchise would crush my soul tbh. Would only be interested in doing it my way.

What would you do differently that you couldn't do as part of a franchise?
Have you done any research into franchise agreements?
Have you considered that you may be able to buy ingredients cheaper as part of a franchise and also companies spend millions building up a brand name for a reason.
Franchises also provide a basic groundwork plan which could be very beneficial to you as you seem to be weak on the business side.

Right looking at outgoings, I figure it would go as follows:

Initial output:

Decent machine, grinder, fridge milk dispenser etc: €7k
Other fittings/getting the place into shape/a couch or two: €5k (most work done by me)
2 months rent/rates/utilities/wages in hand (see below): €3.2k
2 months stock in hand (see below): €3.2k
Company registration and the likes: €500
Advertising and promotion: €1k


Ongoing stuff:

Assuming 6 day week from 8-6 with an average of 1.5 people present @ approx €12ph incl PRSI: €1080
Rent/rates/utilities: ~€400
I have no idea but lets just say €100 per week

for a total of €1600 a week fixed costs.

If the cost of sales (cups, beans etc) is about 20% as my research has shown to be the case and the average drink is costing €2, then we're profiting €1.60 per drink, meaning we need to sell 1,000 cups to break even, or 17 per hour.

Whatever we make on further coffees and ancillary shit (bakery slaves etc) then is the profit.

If you look at 3FE on Abbey St, they had absolutely nothing buy coffee and shortbread biscuits when they started out, and because it was so good they made money and were able to expand it.
Advertising for the most part could be done by the way of FB and Twitter and word of mouth for a nominal cost. A competition like Keane entered where the winner gets free coffee for life (1 cup a day max obv) or something.


What do ye think of that?

Where are you coming up with those figures?
When you get the actual figures how much equity are you willing to part with? Is there a percentage of the company below which you wont go?

Ugh...that's why I'm here asking IPB...I want the business nerds to handle the business...I'll handle the coffee!

If thats the case you should apply to manage a coffee shop.

Research suggests cost of sales for a coffee is like 25%.

Let's say lease and bills cost you 1.5k. If you sell 2k coffees a week, thats 4k monies, which is 2.5k after the above. Knock some salaries off that and you're still left with profit. Easy game!

Is this the fancy Italian coffee or the weak filtered american coffee?
How about the rent, insurance, tax, electricity, heating, ect.
How much annual income do you need to make this worth your while and factor in you dont have 100% ownership.

How many cups of coffee do you need to sell now?

[MrPillowTalk]

your low on some of your cost estimations, the right coffee machine alone will cost about 6-7k and thats before anything else. Rates will prob be higher and you havent factored anything for insurance. When calculating your margins you dont seem to have allowed for Vat, prsi etc.

You have to be realistic with your budget at the start, the no 1 problem I see in business plans I get shown are unrealistic assumptions. 17 customers on average per hour will be difficult.

I dont mean to talk the idea down just would encourage you to take a more honest appraisal of things.

Businesses like this live or die on only one thing, location.

[Guest]

What % of businesses fail in the first year huge im guessing especially catering.

Would be great too see this take off but i fear with the economy is a downward spiral simple stuff like a good cup of coffee would be seen as a luxury.

If you set up on the broadwalk and sold lemons spoons and needles make a fortune of junkies.

[Lord Sir Banter]

What do junkies use lemons for?

[Guest]

What do junkies use lemons for?

Citric acid breaks down heroin in spoon when heated allowing it to be injected witha drop of water

[Guest]

Firstly this is not meant to be in any way condescending but it seems as if you have no idea what is involved in setting up a business and the sheer amount of paperwork that is required on a day to day business.

100% correct! Thread has been an eye opener and it would seem like the van idea is a better bet. The only reason I was interested in it was from the coffee end of things, a romantic notion about running a place that does awesome-o coffee, but as people here said and Raoul said last night, that stuff is really down to the employees/manager. Seemingly the owner does all the boring shit!
I think it was Kayroo that said I seemed like I wanted to be Gunther from friends!

[Lord Sir Banter]

any update on this?

[CHDad]

any update on this?

It is a long process.

Nothing compared to toast stalls idea though.

[Guest]

Have a job so no need for it...for now!

[HiCloy]

I got this today, I like his plan to reduce overheads! I live in a pretty big apartment complex with a large employer next door where lots of the residents work, and the local coffee options are pretty poor, so it's not a totally hopeless idea

SPOILER

[Guest]

Fuck sake. Academics all over the place thinking of selling coffee! I do have a PSV license as well, but I believe there's not much to be made in that game these days

[Raoul Duke III]

Fuck sake. Academics all over the place thinking of selling coffee! I do have a PSV license as well, but I believe there's not much to be made in that game these days

heh, I remember giving you tons of abuse in Clontarf Castle one night over this! Arthur Guinness may have been present also

If I recall correctly, your burd nodded approvingly at key points durng my speech

[Guest]

heh, I remember giving you tons of abuse in Clontarf Castle one night over this! Arthur Guinness may have been present also

If I recall correctly, your burd nodded approvingly at key points durng my speech

Think I was after a few as well so I don't remember! This thread took the wind out of my sails though. Insurance, business plans, rates...where's the fun in that?!

[tommyombomb]

Think I was after a few as well so I don't remember! This thread took the wind out of my sails though. Insurance, business plans, rates...where's the fun in that?!

havent read this thread the whole thread but I think you should have applied through the EII Scheme(formally the BES Scheme). It allows investors invest money into a company and gain tax relief on it. if they feel the idea is safe and relatively risk free you pay it back with no interest(as the original investor has gained from the tax relief)

If you are serious about this, start working on a business plan now. Market research, Unique selling point etc. SWOT analysis etc along with other frameworks would be beneficial. This is adding value and makes it cheaper down the line if you need to pay someone to assist in raising the finance

start meeting with people in the next six months. if you want this to work and have 100% ownership down the line the more work you get done now the better. From October onwards you need to be sending out portfolios to business people you know.

ideally try and get an accountant(accountants might be able to recommend you to the right people) to review and polish off the report along with somebody with a bit of marketing experience if possible. the figures need to balance as the prospective people will first look to see if the figures balance.

the reason i say the end of next year as this is when people are planning their tax returns and if they are of a more risky accepting they may see you as a good investment if you put together a good USP/Projections

As they say "a quiet priest never gets a parish" and if you want this to succeed you will need to have neck.

there is loads of info online in relation to this. i have put together packs like this for people before with mixed results so its worth a shot. GL and if possible get a job in a coffee shop for a few months, ideally one of the bigger chains as they are doing a lot right due to the success they have gained.

GL and enjoy(apologies for the bit of a long post but a bit bored, now back to poker)

[gorrrr72]

Think I was after a few as well so I don't remember! This thread took the wind out of my sails though. Insurance, business plans, rates...where's the fun in that?!

Meh, you should have just done it anyway, people always get behind a go-getter so if you pushed it I am sure you would have gotten the investment. I know a lot of advice was good and well intentioned but sometimes you can spend too much time thinking about something. Probably would have been a nightmare to arrange legally but it would have been fun.

[max_power]

That guy is going to have some fun when everyone orders their coffees for 8am or whatever.

I have a semi long term plan of opening a cafe in Dublin a couple of years down the line. From being home at Christmas there really does appear to be a gap or many gaps in the market for decent cafes (with food and some style and heart).