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Old 21-03-19, 21:14   #1
Arazi
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"Service Charge"! WTF

I see there was a question asked in the thread re the upcoming GGMasters 100K about what the rake would be in the cash games.

The answer given was "5% capped at €12" which is fair enough and that there was a "service charge" of €1 on all pots of €20 or over". What the Fcuk is a SERVICE CHARGE? Is this the new way that we players are going to be fleeced? Has anyone come across this before?
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Old 21-03-19, 21:48   #2
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All "Irish Poker Series" Events for last 18? months at least.

Clearly advertised.
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Old 21-03-19, 21:49   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
I see there was a question asked in the thread re the upcoming GGMasters 100K about what the rake would be in the cash games.

The answer given was "5% capped at €12" which is fair enough and that there was a "service charge" of €1 on all pots of €20 or over". What the Fcuk is a SERVICE CHARGE? Is this the new way that we players are going to be fleeced? Has anyone come across this before?
Yeah Larry introduced it at his festivals a few years ago. It gets added to the dealers tip pool. Load of bollix but 90% of players don't realise/care
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Old 21-03-19, 21:55   #4
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that's criminal
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Old 21-03-19, 21:57   #5
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Originally Posted by limpwhacker View Post
Yeah Larry introduced it at his festivals a few years ago. It gets added to the dealers tip pool. Load of bollix but 90% of players don't realise/care
More care id say.

Majority of Irish Events are small buyin multi re-entry day 1 recreational player weekends with players away for fun/drinks/poker and when they bust its a few hours at the bar or cash tables with friends. As long as organisers arent taking the proverbial they dont mind as its disposable income and tbf the tourney reg fees arent gonna cut a propervwage for dealers and some organisers must feel the tips arent looking fter the dealers either.

Its not all 10/20 PLO.

I wouldnt be the most prolific cash player at these games bht have no probs. Now im sure if it was brought into the bigger cash games in Ireland it would be a different issue.
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Old 21-03-19, 22:47   #6
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A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.
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Old 22-03-19, 11:28   #7
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more rake is better
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Old 22-03-19, 17:31   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.
Doesn't help matters when the dealer only receives 40c from every euro tipped.

Its got to be the norm now, 3% removed from prize pools yet the pint glass with tips and happy face drawn on it is still sitting on the table when the money is being counted out.

1 euro service charge taken out but no dealer every says "its ok i have already been tipped" when someone tips that is not aware of it.
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Old 22-03-19, 18:21   #9
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Doesn't help matters when the dealer only receives 40c from every euro tipped.
Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.
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Old 22-03-19, 22:29   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.
This is surely a level.

So on a €20 pot this guy is taking €2, ie 10%.
Not only that but possibly we have put €10 of that €20 into the pot ourselves so the “rake and service charge” is 20% of our winnings.

Like I said criminal.
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Old 22-03-19, 22:38   #11
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That is a very good point. I imagine the majority of promoters put all the tips into the tip pools, but you are crazy if you think that in an unregulated industry with cash lying around the organisers are always honest. If you play poker in Ireland you have definitely been stolen from and cheated out of money. Probably regularly.
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Old 22-03-19, 22:39   #12
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Originally Posted by dobby View Post
Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.
What people say in public and what happens behind closed doors won't always tally
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Old 22-03-19, 23:58   #13
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Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.

I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.
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Old 23-03-19, 12:08   #14
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Originally Posted by sinnerboy View Post
I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.
The first I've ever heard of a contract for a casual job. I've dealt almost every game and festival in Ireland and never once signed a contract. I've also never had a problem with tips bar one operator about 10 years ago who no longer runs games.

Would love to know how you came about this "information" about any contracts.

Edit to add that floor staff etc have been part of the tip pool for as long as I can remember now which is fair imo, they often put in more hours than a dealer which is why it might seem like they're getting more. Tips are always divided up and distributed according to how many hours you did.

Last edited by dobby; 23-03-19 at 12:13.
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Old 23-03-19, 12:41   #15
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Originally Posted by sinnerboy View Post
I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.
Where?
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Old 23-03-19, 12:45   #16
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
That is a very good point. I imagine the majority of promoters put all the tips into the tip pools, but you are crazy if you think that in an unregulated industry with cash lying around the organisers are always honest. If you play poker in Ireland you have definitely been stolen from and cheated out of money. Probably regularly.
Very poor statement from a well respected member of the Irish Poker community.

As has been highlighted above by dobby one such operator was suspected of keeping tips several years ago and that operator is no longer in business.

Can you please provide examples of current operators who are stealing from their customers on a regular basis!
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Old 23-03-19, 15:42   #17
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Very poor statement from a well respected member of the Irish Poker community.

As has been highlighted above by dobby one such operator was suspected of keeping tips several years ago and that operator is no longer in business.

Can you please provide examples of current operators who are stealing from their customers on a regular basis!
Did that operator face jail time? Did he receive any punishment?

The Irish poker world has no regulator. No-one checking are operators/casinos operating according to the law, or ethically. In these circumstances its naive to think that everything is done above board. I'm sure many operators do act ethically, and having played many times in the village green, I would trust that your operations are always run very well. But the current situation city wide is very far from ideal.

In Ireland there is almost never oversight of dealers, and the best practices that other jurisdictions have evolved to reduce the risks of dealers cheating are completely ignored. I played a €500 euro event about two years ago and the dealer wasn't cutting the deck. I don't think it was malicious, but it was a good example of the standard of oversight and training the typical dealer receives. So, if the dealers are free to do what they want, a certain percentage of them will be stealing and cheating, probably both from the customers and from the operator themselves.

The security procedures in tournaments here are much worse than abroad. Players manage to cheat at the WSOP, so its unlikely it isn't happening here too.

In Ireland dealers typically take the rake from pots surreptitiously, not leaving the customer the opportunity to work out if they have been raked correctly. Can you imagine this happening in any other business! So they are almost certainly taking too much. I would imagine sometimes on their own accord, sometimes at their supervisors volition (which I have heard several times from dealers). Customers are often discouraged to enquire about the rake. There are places here that change the rake structure depending on the time of night. That's fine, except they keep it secret so its actually breaking the law.
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Old 23-03-19, 15:50   #18
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Did that operator face jail time? Did he receive any punishment?

The Irish poker world has no regulator. No-one checking are operators/casinos operating according to the law, or ethically. In these circumstances its naive to think that everything is done above board. I'm sure many operators do act ethically, and having played many times in the village green, I would trust that your operations are always run very well. But the current situation city wide is very far from ideal.

In Ireland there is almost never oversight of dealers, and the best practices that other jurisdictions have evolved to reduce the risks of dealers cheating are completely ignored. I played a €500 euro event about two years ago and the dealer wasn't cutting the deck. I don't think it was malicious, but it was a good example of the standard of oversight and training the typical dealer receives. So, if the dealers are free to do what they want, a certain percentage of them will be stealing and cheating, probably both from the customers and from the operator themselves.

The security procedures in tournaments here are much worse than abroad. Players manage to cheat at the WSOP, so its unlikely it isn't happening here too.

In Ireland dealers typically take the rake from pots surreptitiously, not leaving the customer the opportunity to work out if they have been raked correctly. Can you imagine this happening in any other business! So they are almost certainly taking too much. I would imagine sometimes on their own accord, sometimes at their supervisors volition (which I have heard several times from dealers). Customers are often discouraged to enquire about the rake. There are places here that change the rake structure depending on the time of night. That's fine, except they keep it secret so its actually breaking the law.
Does all this go on in the fitz also?

That's not a dig, it's a genuine question because I know you work there and I haven't played in the fitz for about 12 years
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Old 23-03-19, 19:09   #19
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Looks like there’s not to many pots to take a service charge out of in city north, I’d say some players voted with their feet and didn’t attend.
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Old 24-03-19, 03:30   #20
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Looks like there’s not to many pots to take a service charge out of in city north, I’d say some players voted with their feet and didn’t attend.
Its highly unlikely that players didn’t play the tournament because of a €1 service charge in the cash games.
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